The word of faith and the gifts

[Dave-L]

Can you restate what you just said about Evangelism and implying that somehow it is in line with this Word of Faith movement?

Both come from the same place. Free will salvation based on works. The WoF teacher who I mention killed over 100 people including himself said "you are healed" or "provided for" the same way you are saved. "All of God's promises are based on choosing to meet the condition of faith". This told me many who think they are saved are no more saved than these were healed.

 

[miknik5]

Both come from the same place. Free will salvation based on works. The WoF teacher who I mention killed over 100 people including himself said "you are healed" or "provided for" the same way you are saved. "All of God's promises are based on choosing to meet the condition of faith". This told me many who think they are saved are no more saved than these were healed.

Nevermind Dave, I didn´t see that you said false evangelism in your original post. However, since you did respond, what is TRUE EVANGELISM?

 

[Dave-L]

Nevermind Dave, I didn´t see that you said false evangelism in your original post. However, since you did respond, what is TRUE EVANGELISM?

If a person chooses to believe it, it is because they don't believe it. And think following the directions saves them.

The saved believe it when they hear it and follow the directions.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

He also said lay NO OTHER FOUNDATION then the ONE laid...and THAT also is CHRIST and the MESSAGE of THE CROSS.

Many are being seduced by demon spirits, by believing that the Cross (the Blood of Jesus) is not needful in these last days of the church age; or the real religious people want to add Christian disciplines to the Cross (the Blood of Jesus). Their names are being blotted out the "Book of Life."

 

[miknik5]

If a person chooses to believe it, it is because they don't believe it. And think following the directions saves them.

The saved believe it when they hear it and follow the directions.

Ok. Do you mind telling me what, in your above statement, ¨It¨ is?

 

[miknik5]

Many are being seduced by demon spirits, by believing that the Cross (the Blood of Jesus) is not needful in these last days of the church age; or the real religious people want to add Christian disciplines to the Cross (the Blood of Jesus). Their names are being blotted out the "Book of Life."

I agree

1 John 2 and 2 John 1 explain the difference between those who keep before them what they began in, and those who....go out from what they began in....

 

[garee]

So I was talking to a friend ealier and she explained to me how severely she was damaaged by the word of faith doctrine but how God seems to be drawing her near it. I will not say who or why for privacy purposes but it is something I wanted to talk about as my explanation to her had to do with the gifts of the spirit and for the past two days God has been tugging at me to take a deeper dive into the subject of the gifts perhaps to gain a better understanding of them or perhaps to reveal something about them I knew not but in this particular thing I believe God lead me to this friend for a reason and this thread being one of them.

So the word of faith doctrine. As I understand it the wof believe in proclaiming something and believing fully you recieve it not just in recieving things but if you proclaim someone to be healed they are healed no if and's or but's and if I am off base I apologize. However they also seem to think if you do this and don't recieve it then it is because you lack the faith as everyone should be able to do all things with faith and again if I am off base I apologize.

Now here is my take and what I said to my friend as well. I do think there is a validation to the wof to a point I admire having the kind of faith to proclaim something and fully believe you recieve it but the mistake and where the damage is done is the fact that if you lack faith you will not recieve it. Now here is the part where the gifts come into play. The gift of faith is an actual spiritual gift however there is something about the gifts not understood by some. We can all walk in the gifts however not all are called to them, being called meaning not all thrive in them or excel.

For instance I have the faith to be able to place my trust in him even in the worst of times so some might say I have the gift of faith however I do not believe I excel in it as one would in the wof because for the life of me I cannot proclaim something and fully believe. I understand that wof is not a very well liked doctrine but I also do believe it is a valid teaching just not in that degree that seems to have caused so much grief for it.

We all are called to different ministries and different gifts and we all excel in certain gifts walk in certain gifts and some we don't walk in at all and I think this misunderstanding is a major problem in how our views are affected.

WOF gives a false pride teaching. Saying that you can be the source of Christ's work the Master that he works in us. It comes from the idea of "sign gifts" .self edifying something the bible informs us to be aware of.not to be confused with spirutl gifts. Spiritual gifts are a work of His spirt in us that work from within. It becomes another kind of wisdom not generated by the exclusive faith as it is written. But one of personal desire spent like a credit card .

Ecclesiastics 7 comes to mind. It makes a excellent commentary (no one knows what will happen in the future.) exposes the WOF . Its not one day at a time but pray without ceasing. Like the Hymn. . "We need Thee every Hour . It is now we need the blessing

Wisdom is better if you also have property. Wise people will get more than enough wealth. Wisdom and money can protect you. But knowledge gained through wisdom is even better—it can save your life. Look at what God has made. You cannot change a thing, even if you think it is wrong. When life is good, enjoy it. But when life is hard, remember that God gives us good times and hard times. And no one knows what will happen in the future. Ecclesiastics 7 ;11-12

 

[Dave-L]

Ok. Do you mind telling me what, in your above statement, ¨It¨ is?

The gospel

 

[Blain]

Many are being seduced by demon spirits, by believing that the Cross (the Blood of Jesus) is not needful in these last days of the church age; or the real religious people want to add Christian disciplines to the Cross (the Blood of Jesus). Their names are being blotted out the "Book of Life."

The cross and the blood of Jesus has been is and always needed for salvation but as I said to you in your other thread while it is wise to kneel before the heels of the cross remembering and honoring what he did eventually Jesus comes and says to come come and walk with me

 

[Blain]

I think it is also good not to get so bogged down on technicalities. If your good at something, use it. If your not good at something you can explore it and you will find out if the Spirit wants you in that area or not.

The Spirit is your helper. It will guide you. If you inwardly feel like you would be good at something that can be the Spirit trying to persuade you. But if your denials stop it from manifestation then the flesh has won.

Well I won't lie I think as a pastor I might be good at it but the thing is firstly I have no idea what you even do to become one and I know you have to meet certain specifics to even be one in a church. But I also know that I still have much to learn and to grow in as a believer so while this seems out of reach at the moment I know that if we seek after him first everything will fall into place

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

The cross and the blood of Jesus has been is and always needed for salvation but as I said to you in your other thread while it is wise to kneel before the heels of the cross remembering and honoring what he did eventually Jesus comes and says to come come and walk with me

The Holy Spirit, Works strictly within the parameters of the "Finished Work" i.e., "the Cross of Christ", which demands that our Faith be exclusively in the Cross of Christ. The reason is simple, that's were the price was paid, and the victory was forever won (Romans 6:1-14; 1 Cor. 2:2; Gal. 5; Gal. 6:14; Eph. 2:13-18; Col. 2:14-15).

The Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)

Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)...the only way to Jesus Christ is by the Means of the Cross (Luke 14:27). The only way to the Cross is a denial of self (Luke 9:23). If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

Most modern Christians simply do not know how to live for God; consequently, they make the attempt in all the wrong ways, which results in the words of the Apostle Paul being fulfilled in their lives, “O wretched man that I am . . .” (Rom. 7:24). Living for the Lord can be carried out successfully in only one way, and that is by the Believer understanding that everything we receive from the Lord comes to us exclusively through Christ as the Source and the Cross as the Means.

 

[Blain]

So fave is the wof movement the root cause of your view on the gifts and the way they are used for his service? Because if so then now I understand why you aree so against them and why I couldn't reason with you.
I have seen far to much damage done by so called christians in my short time of being saved and the severity of the damage is insane and yet it continues. I know the inner damage from so called christians all to well

 

[Blain]

The Holy Spirit, He Works strictly within the parameters of the "Finished Work" i.e., "the Cross of Christ", which demands that our Faith be exclusively in the Cross of Christ. The reason is simple, that's were the price was paid, and the victory was forever won (Romans 6:1-14; 1 Cor. 2:2; Gal. 5; Gal. 6:14; Eph. 2:13-18; Col. 2:14-15).

The Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)

Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)...the only way to Jesus Christ is by the Means of the Cross (Luke 14:27). The only way to the Cross is a denial of self (Luke 9:23). If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

Most modern Christians simply do not know how to live for God; consequently, they make the attempt in all the wrong ways, which results in the words of the Apostle Paul being fulfilled in their lives, “O wretched man that I am . . .” (Rom. 7:24). Living for the Lord can be carried out successfully in only one way, and that is by the Believer understanding that everything we receive from the Lord comes to us exclusively through Christ as the Source and the Cross as the Means.

Look I am not going to argue about this with you on yet another thread that is about another subject of God, if you do not have the understanding to see that I am not never was and never will say what you are implying then I cannot help you

 

[Blain]

WOF gives a false pride teaching. Saying that you can be the source of Christ's work the Master that he works in us. It comes from the idea of "sign gifts" .self edifying something the bible informs us to be aware of.not to be confused with spirutl gifts. Spiritual gifts are a work of His spirt in us that work from within. It becomes another kind of wisdom not generated by the exclusive faith as it is written. But one of personal desire spent like a credit card .

Ecclesiastics 7 comes to mind. It makes a excellent commentary (no one knows what will happen in the future.) exposes the WOF . Its not one day at a time but pray without ceasing. Like the Hymn. . "We need Thee every Hour . It is now we need the blessing

Wisdom is better if you also have property. Wise people will get more than enough wealth. Wisdom and money can protect you. But knowledge gained through wisdom is even better—it can save your life. Look at what God has made. You cannot change a thing, even if you think it is wrong. When life is good, enjoy it. But when life is hard, remember that God gives us good times and hard times. And no one knows what will happen in the future. Ecclesiastics 7 ;11-12

While I do agree and sadly the damage this group seems to do to others is very rapid I want to ask you do you think that there is validation to having that kind of faith?
I mean God is not a genie and anything asked with faith has to be according to his will but if you had that kind of faith what would you use it for?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Well I won't lie I think as a pastor I might be good at it but the thing is firstly I have no idea what you even do to become one and I know you have to meet certain specifics to even be one in a church. But I also know that I still have much to learn and to grow in as a believer so while this seems out of reach at the moment I know that if we seek after him first everything will fall into place

You have to sell your arm and a leg lol. Just kidding. My Pastor had to get a degree, then a professional mental evaluation, then work at a small backcountry church, and then he was trusted with our church which holds 200+ people. He is mentally evaluated every few years and voted on by a board.

Basically some denominations/churches have gotten very political. While some churches just want experience. I would seek out opportunities to preach or teach a subject. Maybe volunteer for your pastor and see what they say.

Sometimes it takes finding a mentor.

Or if you find like minded Christians with the fire to spread the Word then start your own church.

 

[Blain]

You have to sell your arm and a leg lol. Just kidding. My Pastor had to get a degree, then a professional mental evaluation, then work at a small backcountry church, and then he was trusted with our church which holds 200+ people. He is mentally evaluated every few years and voted on by a board.

Basically some denominations/churches have gotten very political. While some churches just want experience. I would seek out opportunities to preach or teach a subject. Maybe volunteer for your pastor and see what they say.

Sometimes it takes finding a mentor.

Or if you find like minded Christians with the fire to spread the Word then start your own church.

Yeah see that is my main obstacle. I can't even afford to go to collage let alone be able to get a degree and even then I don't have that kind of mental capacity it is difficult for me to remember and maintain information I even have to look up scripture when it is posted most of the time and I am not exactly a thinker I speak what God places on my heart to speak. I would fail any mental test as I have severe brain damage and anyone who meets me confuses me with a child because not only do I look like one but my personality and all around aura pretty much screams innocence and childlike. Granted most elderly people adore me because of this but with all this alone I could never hope to get a degree to become a pastor.

When I was able to go to church I prefered to go to the elderly group and adult bible study classes and they would always act so astonished at the wisdom and insight I had in everything as if I could take any credit but that is where I was told I should be a teacher. But like you said it isn't like in the old days with the apostles everything is degree and legalized.
But in the time I felt called to stand in front of people and speak the words just flowed and both times the entire congregation was in tears and applause. But rarely ever am I presented with such a situation and I am very limited to where I can go as I have to walk everywhere

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yeah see that is my main obstacle. I can't even afford to go to collage let alone be able to get a degree and even then I don't have that kind of mental capacity it is difficult for me to remember and maintain information I even have to look up scripture when it is posted most of the time and I am not exactly a thinker I speak what God places on my heart to speak. I would fail any mental test as I have severe brain damage and anyone who meets me confuses me with a child because not only do I look like one but my personality and all around aura pretty much screams innocence and childlike. Granted most elderly people adore me because of this but with all this alone I could never hope to get a degree to become a pastor.

When I was able to go to church I prefered to go to the elderly group and adult bible study classes and they would always act so astonished at the wisdom and insight I had in everything as if I could take any credit but that is where I was told I should be a teacher. But like you said it isn't like in the old days with the apostles everything is degree and legalized.
But in the time I felt called to stand in front of people and speak the words just flowed and both times the entire congregation was in tears and applause. But rarely ever am I presented with such a situation and I am very limited to where I can go as I have to walk everywhere

I can see the intentions behind such attempts to create well educated, mentally stable, and experienced pastors but this was mostly done through discipleship. Think of Timothy and Paul.

Unfortunately many churches feel like they need such restrictions due to past events where pastors failed.

Same as you though I dont have the money or time to get a degree. Most Pastors say it is a waste of time and money anyways due to how secular many theology colleges have gotten.

So for most people you have to let your pastor know and see what ways they can help.

 

[Blain]

I can see the intentions behind such attempts to create well educated, mentally stable, and experienced pastors but this was mostly done through discipleship. Think of Timothy and Paul.

Unfortunately many churches feel like they need such restrictions due to past events where pastors failed.

Same as you though I dont have the money or time to get a degree. Most Pastors say it is a waste of time and money anyways due to how secular many theology colleges have gotten.

So for most people you have to let your pastor know and see what ways they can help.

Well as soon as churches start opening again I am hoping to go, sadly there is only one I can walk to and at the moment it is not open.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Well as soon as churches start opening again I am hoping to go, sadly there is only one I can walk to and at the moment it is not open.

You could possibly catch a ride with a neighbor to their church or someone you know could pick you up.

 

[Blain]

You could possibly catch a ride with a neighbor to their church or someone you know could pick you up.

Yeah sadly that has never worked out for me no one where I live likes church and my family never gives me rides so I have to walk everywhere I once walked in a thunderstorm just to go to church