Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
F

Funkus

Active member
#201
May 20, 2020
198
70
28
#201
Anyway, Jesus's first coming in the flesh was strictly to the Jews (Romans 15:8). He forbidded the 12 to preach the gospel of the kingdom to the gentiles (Matthew 10:5).
Click to expand...
I don't know how much it matters but it's not quite as binary as this although the pattern is focusing on Jews it's true during ministery
But for one thing parts of Galilee had been Hellenized and many non-Jews lived in the area
As an example the apostle Phillip has a Greek name, and the names of his daughters are all Greek as well
Also Jesus was active in Samaria and seemed to count them worthy of receiving it
Jesus also stepped outside the holy land a few times from memory Tyre in Mark and maybe Decapolis, not sure on that one
The 12 and the 72 also firmly set out to the whole world very soon after the passion and we know where some of them ended up going
What i get from this is he always planned from the beginning to include gentiles
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#202
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#202
eternally-gratefull said:
I think people have been explaining it to you for a few months now..

as have I in the past.. No desire to go there again.
Click to expand...
Yep, I was wondering why you reply to my post.

You realized I never reply to yours for a very long time already?
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#203
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#203
Funkus said:
I don't know how much it matters but it's not quite as binary as this although the pattern is focusing on Jews it's true during ministery
But for one thing parts of Galilee had been Hellenized and many non-Jews lived in the area
As an example the apostle Phillip has a Greek name, and the names of his daughters are all Greek as well
Also Jesus was active in Samaria and seemed to count them worthy of receiving it
Jesus also stepped outside the holy land a few times from memory Tyre in Mark and maybe Decapolis, not sure on that one
The 12 and the 72 also firmly set out to the whole world very soon after the passion and we know where some of them ended up going
What i get from this is he always planned from the beginning to include gentiles
Click to expand...
Yes, but the OT timetable was always that Israel have to accept Jesus as their Messiah first, before the Gentile nations can be reached. It was stated in a few places, including Zechariah 8.

Peter also reminded Israel again that they had the priority in Acts 2 and 3, they were God's favorite nation then.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#205
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#205
Guojing said:
Yes, but the OT timetable was always that Israel have to accept Jesus as their Messiah first, before the Gentile nations can be reached. It was stated in a few places, including Zechariah 8.

Peter also reminded Israel again that they had the priority in Acts 2 and 3, they were God's favorite nation then.
Click to expand...
Yes, the Lord told them to seek first the kingdom of God and the physical would be given. The Jews did not. They were to be that city on a hill (Jerusalem) and a light to the Gentiles.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#206
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#206
Guojing said:
The OT timetable was that Israel is to be saved first by the gospel of the kingdom, as I have stated. Jesus also reminded them that in Matthew 10:5
Click to expand...
Didn't notice any comment regarding the explanation noted in that post, as well as my previous post:

Post #187

I agree that Peter's instructions were initially directed to the Jews present at Pentecost.

However, God also sent Peter to the Gentiles with the same message. They were filled exactly as the Jews had been and obeyed Peter's instruction to be water baptized in Jesus' name. Afterward Paul became the Apostle to the Gentile nations.

Lastly, Peter played a part in the Samaritans compliance to the same message given at Pentecost. After Philip told the Samaritans about Jesus and His name, they submitted to water baptism in Jesus' name. And later Peter and John were sent to them in order that they receive the Holy Ghost.

I would agree that Peter's message pertained only to Jews if in fact there was no evidence of the same message being carried to others as well. However, the message and required compliance was presented, and submitted to, by all three groups. (everyone living is a descendant of one of these groups) This is what convinces me that all of mankind is required to follow the God-given instructions in order to obtain the spiritual rebirth.

Post #190
Samaritans were actually half-Jew and half-Gentile. Interestingly the Samaritans received Peter's initial message from Philip and complied prior to the Gentiles receiving it. Something I have pondered, but am not sure of, is whether the Samaritans Jewish heritage took precedence and therefore the message had to be given to them prior to the Gentiles. Any thoughts?
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#207
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#207
Wansvic said:
Didn't notice any comment regarding the explanation noted in that post, as well as my previous post:

Post #187

I agree that Peter's instructions were initially directed to the Jews present at Pentecost.

However, God also sent Peter to the Gentiles with the same message. They were filled exactly as the Jews had been and obeyed Peter's instruction to be water baptized in Jesus' name. Afterward Paul became the Apostle to the Gentile nations.

Lastly, Peter played a part in the Samaritans compliance to the same message given at Pentecost. After Philip told the Samaritans about Jesus and His name, they submitted to water baptism in Jesus' name. And later Peter and John were sent to them in order that they receive the Holy Ghost.

I would agree that Peter's message pertained only to Jews if in fact there was no evidence of the same message being carried to others as well. However, the message and required compliance was presented, and submitted to, by all three groups. (everyone living is a descendant of one of these groups) This is what convinces me that all of mankind is required to follow the God-given instructions in order to obtain the spiritual rebirth.

Post #190
Samaritans were actually half-Jew and half-Gentile. Interestingly the Samaritans received Peter's initial message from Philip and complied prior to the Gentiles receiving it. Something I have pondered, but am not sure of, is whether the Samaritans Jewish heritage took precedence and therefore the message had to be given to them prior to the Gentiles. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
That was after Stephen was stoned by the Sanhredrin.

The nation has rejected their Messiah for the final time, by stoning one who is filled with the holy spirit, they have committed the blasphamey of the HS, which under the Law of Moses was an unforgivable sin.

When God sent Peter to the Gentiles, he is signaling to Peter that Israel has lost her status as God's favorite nation. Peter was astonished that Gentiles could now be saved without circumcision.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#208
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#208
Guojing said:
The difference between us is that you believe Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 were instructions to everyone who believes, Jews and Gentiles.

My view is that they were instructions directed only to the Jews who will believe. It was all Jewish still even in Acts 2:38.
Click to expand...
Please review your post above. You said the "instructions" seen in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 were ONLY for the Jews. My response included multiple scriptures that confirm that Samaritans and Gentiles received and obeyed the same instructions. (See below)

I am interested in your thoughts regarding my post #190 below as well.

MY POST #187:
I agree that Peter's instructions were initially directed to the Jews present at Pentecost.

However, God also sent Peter to the Gentiles with the same message. They were filled exactly as the Jews had been and obeyed Peter's instruction to be water baptized in Jesus' name. Afterward Paul became the Apostle to the Gentile nations.

Lastly, Peter played a part in the Samaritans compliance to the same message given at Pentecost. After Philip told the Samaritans about Jesus and His name, they submitted to water baptism in Jesus' name. And later Peter and John were sent to them in order that they receive the Holy Ghost.

I would agree that Peter's message pertained only to Jews if in fact there was no evidence of the same message being carried to others as well. However, the message and required compliance was presented, and submitted to, by all three groups. (everyone living is a descendant of one of these groups) This is what convinces me that all of mankind is required to follow the God-given instructions in order to obtain the spiritual rebirth.

MY POST #190:
Samaritans were actually half-Jew and half-Gentile. Interestingly the Samaritans received Peter's initial message from Philip and complied prior to the Gentiles receiving it. Something I have pondered, but am not sure of, is whether the Samaritans Jewish heritage took precedence and therefore the message had to be given to them prior to the Gentiles. Any thoughts?
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#209
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#209
Guojing said:
That was after Stephen was stoned by the Sanhredrin.

The nation has rejected their Messiah for the final time, by stoning one who is filled with the holy spirit, they have committed the blasphamey of the HS, which under the Law of Moses was an unforgivable sin.

When God sent Peter to the Gentiles, he is signaling to Peter that Israel has lost her status as God's favorite nation. Peter was astonished that Gentiles could now be saved without circumcision.
Click to expand...
This comment has no relevance to your comment that the instructions given by Peter were only for the Jews; not the Gentiles. The content of my response, that you continue to avoid, confirms that the Gentiles as well as the Samaritan nations received and obeyed the exact same message.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#210
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#210
Wansvic said:
This comment has no relevance to your comment that the instructions given by Peter were only for the Jews; not the Gentiles. The content of my response, that you continue to avoid, confirms that the Gentiles as well as the Samaritan nations received and obeyed the exact same message.
Click to expand...
If you don't want to see the change that happened in the middle of Acts, that astonished Peter in Acts 10, I cannot force you to see that.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#211
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#211
Guojing said:
If you don't want to see the change that happened in the middle of Acts, that astonished Peter in Acts 10, I cannot force you to see that.
Click to expand...
Agreed, Peter’s message in early Acts was a national message of repentance to Israel.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#212
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#212
John146 said:
Agreed, Peter’s message in early Acts was a national message of repentance to Israel.
Click to expand...
Personally, I find it sad that many Christians believed that the Body of Christ began at Pentecost.

As a result, they fail to understand that in Acts 2-7, all the sermons preached by Peter and Stephen were still directed to Israel and the Jews, and hence miss the deeper meanings in those passages.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#213
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#213
Guojing said:
If you don't want to see the change that happened in the middle of Acts, that astonished Peter in Acts 10, I cannot force you to see that.
Click to expand...
What you are failing to admit is that the Peter's initial message of required obedience to repentance, baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is taken to the Gentiles and Samaritans as well. I presented the three recorded experiences to point out that the message is for all of mankind. There are references of compliance to these components seen throughout the N.T.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#214
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#214
John146 said:
Agreed, Peter’s message in early Acts was a national message of repentance to Israel.
Click to expand...
No one is excluded from the need to repent. Every one who has ever lived must accept Jesus' sacrifice and repent in order to receive remission of their personal sin. John the Baptist introduced the God-given means of doing so. (Luke 3:3) This message was given to the Jew FIRST, the Samaritans second, (half-Jew, half Gentile) and last to the Gentiles. (Romans 1:16-17)
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#215
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#215
Wansvic said:
No one is excluded from the need to repent. Every one who has ever lived must accept Jesus' sacrifice and repent in order to receive remission of their personal sin. John the Baptist introduced the God-given means of doing so. (Luke 3:3) This message was given to the Jew FIRST, the Samaritans second, (half-Jew, half Gentile) and last to the Gentiles. (Romans 1:16-17)
Click to expand...
Today, one must repent as an individual, Peter’s message was calling for a national repentance
 
S

Sipsey

Well-known member
#216
Sep 27, 2018
1,481
695
113
#216
John146 said:
Today, one must repent as an individual, Peter’s message was calling for a national repentance
Click to expand...
A nation is but a collection of individuals. When there are many mature believers in a Nation, it is said to be blessed by God. When the number dwindles to a point that displeases God, then everyone feels His rebuke. We are saved individually or lost individually.

The problem that Nations, the Church and families have dealt with over the many centuries is lack of mature believers that lead by example and have confidence in God, and not this world.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#217
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#217
John146 said:
Today, one must repent as an individual, Peter’s message was calling for a national repentance
Click to expand...
Individuals from all nations were given the same instructions and obeyed. (Acts 2:41, 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6, 22:16) Each person is responsible for themselves. (8:35-40 Eunuch, 16:28-33 Jailer/family, 16:14-15 Lydia/family, 18:8 Crispus/Corinthian believers) Just thought you may not have realized this.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#218
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#218
Wansvic said:
What you are failing to admit is that the Peter's initial message of required obedience to repentance, baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is taken to the Gentiles and Samaritans as well. I presented the three recorded experiences to point out that the message is for all of mankind. There are references of compliance to these components seen throughout the N.T.
Click to expand...
Peter wasn't even preaching to Cornelius actually. He was not expecting God to save Gentiles during that time since national Israel has not accepted their Messiah yet. That was why he never gave any call to Cornelius to "repent and be baptized".

He was just giving Cornelius a summary of what he has been doing with the Jews.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#219
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#219
Sipsey said:
A nation is but a collection of individuals. When there are many mature believers in a Nation, it is said to be blessed by God. When the number dwindles to a point that displeases God, then everyone feels His rebuke. We are saved individually or lost individually.

The problem that Nations, the Church and families have dealt with over the many centuries is lack of mature believers that lead by example and have confidence in God, and not this world.
Click to expand...
Now you are correct, under the gospel of grace, everyone is saved individually, Jews and Gentiles.

But under the gospel of the kingdom, it was a gospel for National Israel. Israel always rise and fall as their leaders do.
 
E

Elderdave

Member
#220
Jan 1, 2020
40
25
8
#220
notuptome said:
I'll make it simple for you. If you don't have eternal security then you ain't secure. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of the faith needed in salvation. No other faith will do and Jesus faith never changes.

I would suggest that you go back and fast for another 10 years but you would miss the point.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...
Roger. your statement is not biblical. you have taken scripture out of context with the rest of scripture and given it a meaning that God never intended it to mean!! If you were honest enough, and cared at all about what the truth is: you would read the Holy Spirits doctrine that i have posted! If you continue on your present course: it is more than likely that you will never fear God! and you will never turn from your sin! and you will be deceived by Satan into believing that you are saved when in fact you are not! People have died. gone to Hell, and seen pastors there that taught what you teach! The false doctrine called eternal security, as it is taught in our churches today: will gaurantee, that the vast majority of those who believe it; will end up in Hell! that is why it is absolutely imperative that you read the Holy Spirits doctrine that i have attached to this post! God will not excuse willful ignorance! the scripture says:
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
One of the lies that is believed in many churches is that you cannot forfeit your salvation once you truly have it! the study that i have attached soundly refutes the lie of eternal security with teachings of Jesus, Paul, Jame, Peter, and John! In order for you to continue to believe in the doctrine of eternal security: you must deny 38 passages in the new testament that say that you CAN forfeit your salvation!
So you are left with two choices at this point: 1. repent, and read the doctine of the Holy Spirit that i have attached. and then have the fear of the lord enter you in such a way that you will truly repent of your sins and receive eternal life. 2. Harden your heart and stiffen your neck, put blinders on your eyes and refuse to love the truth and go to hell when you die! the choice is yours!
2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

If you have never had godly sorrow that worked repentance in you: you are still in your sins and are not saved! Repentance is essential for salvation! this is what Jesus taught, this is what Paul taught, this is what all the apostle taught! I pray that you would repent so that you can be saved. Please read the attached study! I through the Holy Spirit have answered all questions, and all objections in this study!
oh by the way, when paul says that it is by grace you have been saved and not by works... he is speaking to pharisees who thought that if they kept the law they would go to heaven. and that they did not have to believe in jesus. Pauls letters make it plain that there are works that have to do in order to be saved: (like confession of sin, repentance, believing that jesus is the son of god, believing that he died on the cross for our sins and rose again from the dead, etc.)
READ THE STUDY!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.