Why Are Faith, Works and Salvation So Hard to Agree Upon?

[garee]

In the parable of the talents, the Master didn’t praise Himself for the increase. He didn’t blame himself for lack of increase in the one. The different choices the servants made showed the difference.
Huh? He who sees Him increase OBEYS him more often. Thats too ethereal to sort out. I’m a practical woman who sees obeying the direct instructions of the Holy Spirit to me as the goal. I don’t think much about who’s doing what in theory.

You say direct instruction .I say the same. Don't give up on sorting it out he can strengthen you to finish. Finishing is better than starting just as patience is better than pride .

How much faith coming from God is needed to believe God?

The bible says we are born with none (No faith) . The faithful commandment to beleive upon the lord must be obeyed .It can only be obeyed if the Spirit of Christ works in a person to both will and do the good pleasure of God

We listen to the voice of our husband Christ not us the church

John 3:29-31 King James Version (KJV) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

 

[DorothyMae]

Blik says: Both you and I are Christians together, not in an argument I hope. We both are looking for the truth in the Lord.

The word argument also means the position you present. It doesn’t mean we are arguing,

"The Way" is mentioned in Acts 9:2; 19:9; 19:23; 22:4; and 24:14 and 22. I searched history to find out when this denomination died out.

That book was written in the first century. That is not evidence the term lasted 500 years.

I mentioned the women in the genealogy of Christ to point out there were gentiles in the background of Christ. We were speaking of when gentiles were first given the gospel, I think the gentiles in Christ's background points to that our Lord has always wanted gentiles included.

Of course, but the gospel went to the Gentiles when Peter preached to the house of Cornelius. It’s a pretty exciting account.

 

[garee]

Dorthy says: Can you provide some documentation that they were called "the "Way" until for 500 years. Surely there is some documentation where this title was commonly used if this is so. It is an argument that they were called something and so surely someone called them that in their writings until that date.

That the women bore children does not mean they had received the Gospel. The Gospel or "good news" was actually news.

Blik says: Both you and I are Christians together, not in an argument I hope. We both are looking for the truth in the Lord.

"The Way" is mentioned in Acts 9:2; 19:9; 19:23; 22:4; and 24:14 and 22. I searched history to find out when this denomination died out.

I mentioned the women in the genealogy of Christ to point out there were gentiles in the background of Christ. We were speaking of when gentiles were first given the gospel, I think the gentiles in Christ's background points to that our Lord has always wanted gentiles included.

Good point.

"The Way" or the "Nazarene" denomination.

It would seem that during that at time period. . . churches were named after the founders, as a city of people.

Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians Philippians, Colossian, Thessalonians

This include the false denominations like Nicolaitans, named after it founder, Nicole .

The church of Ephesus which applies to all sects as denominations were warned of giving their first love, the hearing of Faith that works in man seen, over to Nicole seen as if the hearing came form him . A wile of the devil

Christian, literally meaning residents of a city prepared as a bride foundered on her husband, Christ.

A more befitting name in respect to the bride "represented by all nations". Previously calling her Israel. Until the time of reformation .

She was previously reckoned the bride when he used her to represent unbelief and belief using one nation as a metaphor .She was cut off and given the new name by the Father . Christian

Like the gentile Abel, the apostle, prophet and first martyr .

 

[Blik]

I like the grafting analogy because I think it truly illustrates the process of two becoming one. In this process, both the branch and the Vine grow into eachother. However I think even though sometimes there is an attempt to graft, unification is incomplete. They branch may become disconnected, or just incompatible to conform. I think these situations are better shown in the “parable of the sower.” I think the desire of the branch to be part of the Vine will make the process successful. So in short I think that upon a decision to be One with God, the connection isn’t as instantaneous as some believe. It is a process requiring spiritual growth. There was many years I took it for granted that I was saved. I prayed, believed, got baptized and even led men’s ministry but still felt like a counterfeit. I was going through the motions but my heart was not changing. I remember the first time I actually felt the Holy Spirit and truly was awake. It literally felt like my body lifted off of the sofa where I was meditating/praying. It was since then instead of prayer being a monologue, I actually “hear” the voice of God. I became a new creation that day, not before. My heart filled with compassion and felt His Spirit flowing through me. Unless one experiences this transformation they will never understand it. I feel now I can never be separated from God. We are One.

How inspiring!

The psalms speak of meditating on the Lord, and like you I find meditation so healing in that word's complete sense. To some people meditation means emptying the mind and saying hummmm, something used by the occult, not what David spoke of in the Psalms. Would you consider teaching us how to meditate on the Lord?

 

[garee]

I like the grafting analogy because I think it truly illustrates the process of two becoming one. In this process, both the branch and the Vine grow into eachother. However I think even though sometimes there is an attempt to graft, unification is incomplete. They branch may become disconnected, or just incompatible to conform. I think these situations are better shown in the “parable of the sower.” I think the desire of the branch to be part of the Vine will make the process successful. So in short I think that upon a decision to be One with God, the connection isn’t as instantaneous as some believe. It is a process requiring spiritual growth. There was many years I took it for granted that I was saved. I prayed, believed, got baptized and even led men’s ministry but still felt like a counterfeit. I was going through the motions but my heart was not changing. I remember the first time I actually felt the Holy Spirit and truly was awake. It literally felt like my body lifted off of the sofa where I was meditating/praying. It was since then instead of prayer being a monologue, I actually “hear” the voice of God. I became a new creation that day, not before. My heart filled with compassion and felt His Spirit flowing through me. Unless one experiences this transformation they will never understand it. I feel now I can never be separated from God. We are One.

Great testimony the work of our first love . The experience of believing on Him not seen the same labor of love by which we are lovingly called back to, over and over awaking our love for him . David in the Psalms said when he awoke God was still there . The wake up call to breakfast our daily toast, empowering us to do his will.

 

[Hungry]

How inspiring!

The psalms speak of meditating on the Lord, and like you I find meditation so healing in that word's complete sense. To some people meditation means emptying the mind and saying hummmm, something used by the occult, not what David spoke of in the Psalms. Would you consider teaching us how to meditate on the Lord?

You still empty the mind except for one thought. I’m not sure if it makes a difference but my awakening was during a time of ketosis (a dietary regime almost completely void of carbohydrates). I was practicing intermittent fasting and had gone about 16 hrs without food. I was in peak condition. My resting heart rate was roughly 40 bpm and my max heart rate was over 250. I was reclined on my sofa and just calm. I focused on feeling my heart pump in my chest. Then I concentrated on the pulse in my neck. I entered my mind and just emptied it all and thought of nothing. It’s like I can feel my brain vibrate, then I called to the Holy Spirit to fill my mind and prayed for wisdom like James invites us to do. My eyes were closed but so much light filled my head it was like I was staring at the sun. All feeling left my body and then a couldn’t feel the sofa anymore. I got frightened and my heart started pounding. I was fully conscious the whole time but I might have reached a stage where my body entered sleep paralysis. Regardless I felt full of light and peace. I returned to the meditative state and continued to pray for clarity and His will. Although I don’t train as hard as I used to I’m still in good shape and eat fairly clean. I can now easily reach that state of peace quickly. It’s like once you find a store it’s easier to find it again. In that peace the Lord often speaks to me in parables very easy to understand. In that state if I pray for healing I can feel pain leave my body. I’m not sure if there is a physical and hormonal element. I am not surprised if some gurus have reached this and is what they might call enlightenment. All I can tell you is that you feel like you crossed over and connected to everything alive. This is where I continue to hear His voice and want only to stay there with Him. Even in the the darkest room sometimes I open my eyes because it’s like somebody turned on the lights.

 

[garee]

You still empty the mind except for one thought. I’m not sure if it makes a difference but my awakening was during a time of ketosis (a dietary regime almost completely void of carbohydrates). I was practicing intermittent fasting and had gone about 16 hrs without food. I was in peak condition. My resting heart rate was roughly 40 bpm and my max heart rate was over 250. I was reclined on my sofa and just calm. I focused on feeling my heart pump in my chest. Then I concentrated on the pulse in my neck. I entered my mind and just emptied it all and thought of nothing. It’s like I can feel my brain vibrate, then I called to the Holy Spirit to fill my mind and prayed for wisdom like James invites us to do. My eyes were closed but so much light filled my head it was like I was staring at the sun. All feeling left my body and then a couldn’t feel the sofa anymore. I got frightened and my heart started pounding. I was fully conscious the whole time but I might have reached a stage where my body entered sleep paralysis. Regardless I felt full of light and peace. I returned to the meditative state and continued to pray for clarity and His will. Although I don’t train as hard as I used to I’m still in good shape and eat fairly clean. I can now easily reach that state of peace quickly. It’s like once you find a store it’s easier to find it again. In that peace the Lord often speaks to me in parables very easy to understand. In that state if I pray for healing I can feel pain leave my body. I’m not sure if there is a physical and hormonal element. I am not surprised if some gurus have reached this and is what they might call enlightenment. All I can tell you is that you feel like you crossed over and connected to everything alive. This is where I continue to hear His voice and want only to stay there with Him. Even in the the darkest room sometimes I open my eyes because it’s like somebody turned on the lights.

Empty except for one thought? What kind of one thought?

Is not meditating filling a a persons mind with the things of God? How is mediating emptying ones mind and opening it possibly to what a some call out of the body experience or a day dream or vision? God is not longer bringing any new revelations ? Satan is still bringing his lying wonderments Why would a person desire to feel the need for that kind of meditation as a danger zone? What benefit

 

[Hungry]

Empty except for one thought? What kind of one thought?

Is not meditating filling a a persons mind with the things of God? How is mediating emptying ones mind and opening it possibly to what a some call out of the body experience or a day dream or vision? God is not longer bringing any new revelations ? Satan is still bringing his lying wonderments Why would a person desire to feel the need for that kind of meditation as a danger zone? What benefit

The thought was calling to the Spirit in the name of Christ. You empty your mind so He can fill it. He already knows what you think. It’s not important. He is teaching/downloading thought. When you go to school, it is more important to listen than to speak. I pray that the scriptures be taught to me. I just shut up and listen. God doesn’t need to bring new revelation, He just better explains the old.

 

[Runningman]

It’s easy. You can’t enter the presence of the Almighty sinful. If you desire to enter, to serve Him as Master/Lord, than you need your sin and guilt reconciled. Blood is the payment. Since the blood of the Lamb is Holy it is a sufficient sacrifice for all. If you do not believe Yeshua was Christ Son of the Most High, then He is just another man and His blood insufficient. This is why faith in Christ is needed for the removal of sins. You seek a pure heart so you may be grafted into the Vine to become part of the Body. The Body is not idle. It has function. So faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins (step 1). Desire to serve the Master and be unified in Christ, hence works (step 2). You can’t be saved without faith but it is for the purpose of works.

People have a hard time excepting a lavish gift such as communion with the creator of the universe, forgiveness of offenses against him, and eternal life simply by meeting a faith requirement. Merely believing in something with a pure heart is counterintuitive to obtaining the thing sought after. People think there must be something more they can do to earn this, but there isn't and that is how God designed it.

There's a lot of really so called smart people out there who can't even tell God exists by looking at the observable universe. Since that's the case God made salvation available only through Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:21 "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe."

In other words, some people just aren't going to get it, but for those who are able to believe it is actually our proof that we have salvation.

 

[kaylagrl]

Do you really think we gentiles want to be taught by the Jew? I don't.

You are reading and understanding scripture about Christ, that is so important. The NT describes Him so much better than the OT. But to me, you are not dividing scripture accurately. You are not giving the same attention and understanding to the role that God the Father plays.

I don't think God's words to us, as scripture is, is ever over and done with once something has happened in our kind of time, not eternal time. God tells us of eternal things,

Do you really think we gentiles want to be taught by the Jew? I don't.

You don't want to be taught by Jesus?!

 

[garee]

The thought was calling to the Spirit in the name of Christ. You empty your mind so He can fill it. He already knows what you think. It’s not important. He is teaching/downloading thought. When you go to school, it is more important to listen than to speak. I pray that the scriptures be taught to me. I just shut up and listen. God doesn’t need to bring new revelation, He just better explains the old.

The Spirit calls to us to turn to us to Him.. We do not call him down .

Sounds eastern ?

I see it more that we mediate on the substance of his words it explains the words . Not eastern fasting as meditation .Starving thoughts and flesh as a wrong form of fasting . Fasting themselves from the true one source of faith.

 

[Hungry]

The Spirit calls to us to turn to us to Him.. We do not call him down .

Sounds eastern ?

I see it more that we mediate on the substance of his words it explains the words . Not eastern fasting as meditation .Starving thoughts and flesh as a wrong form of fasting . Fasting themselves from the true one source of faith.

Do you accuse Christ of going against Christianity because He fasted and meditated?

 

[Hungry]

Do you accuse Christ of going against Christianity because He fasted and meditated?

When I say He meditated I’m not talking about some yoga pose, repeating some mantra. I mean escaping to a quiet dark place to sit alone in peace with God void of distraction. Perhaps that’s the hangup. The word meditate is too closely tied to other faiths.

 

[Blik]

When I say He meditated I’m not talking about some yoga pose, repeating some mantra. I mean escaping to a quiet dark place to sit alone in peace with God void of distraction. Perhaps that’s the hangup. The word meditate is too closely tied to other faiths.

Thanks so very much for telling us about your experience. I have tried to learn how to meditate. What I have learned follows your experience.

I'm told there are different states of the mind that can be measured. The highest is excitement and we can't learn when we are in that state--like if there is a fire the ones who can help are the calm ones. They say the state where you can meditate is so calm you think in pictures, not words. For me to get there I imagine a beautiful place like beside a beautiful lake and slowly go there. Then I concentrate on God, and like you I see God as light. But the light is God in all God's wisdom and goodness. I put this inside me and listen.

The problem is in becoming so quiet inside so you can listen. It takes faith and knowing God is in control, and giving that control to Him.