The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Guojing]

They dont have the answers in response, because dispensationalism has more holes in it than a wheel of Swiss cheese

As I was saying https://christianchat.com/threads/the-absurdity-and-heresy-of-preterism.192468/post-4268931

For me, I am pleasantly surprised to find that so many people here, who will reject dispensationalism and insist that the gospel is the same throughout the OT and NT, will also insist that there is a pre-tribulation rapture of the body of Christ.

 

[crossnote]

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture, the Church will be present on this earth during the 3.5 year tribulation.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[crossnote]

You post as if every ethnic Jew in the world is going to be saved?

Where did I ever say that? Many Jews have already perished without Jesus.

Only the "Remnant Elect" Jew will be saved, the majority will be "Blind" to salvation.

True, all those Jews remaining at the time of Christ's return will be saved.

 

[DorothyMae]

I'm just saying that the word "mello" is another WAY of saying the same thing. You could say (the same thing various ways, with the same idea being conveyed),

--"the hour of trial that I'm PROPHESYING WILL [*for SURE*] come upon the whole world to test those dwelling upon the earth"

--"the hour of trial CERTAIN to come upon the whole world to test those dwelling upon the earth"

--"the hour of trial THAT WILL come upon the whole world to try those dwelling upon the earth"

--"the hour of trial PROPHESIED to come upon the whole world to try those dwelling upon the earth"





[just because some versions have it as "IS ABOUT" to come upon the whole world, doesn't mean the word "mello" necessarily carries that meaning, as in, how we say something "IS ABOUT" to happen in the next few moments--(the word means "SURE / CERTAIN [to]"... so read this verse with that in mind, and reading it from that perspective shows us that he's not saying "in the next few moments" or "in the next several years," but instead "IS SURE [(to take place)]" and not saying as you suggest it would, "THIS prophecy [unlike others you've heard and been exposed to] IS SURE to take place [whereas the others (of inferior caliber) 'flopped']." NO. Not THAT idea, see. )]

Claiming to be prophesying from the Lord and adding "it will surely happen" provides no information where as "soon will happen" provides valuable information.

Just for fun, I decided to read again Revelation last night before going to sleep. Did not finish it but found some time markers. Let's see if the Greek scholars can explain away all the words used, different words, to indicate soon.

Rev 1:1 The revelation of JC which God have him to show to his servants what must soon take place.

The Dispensational version: The revelation of JC which God gave him to show to his servants what must rapidly take place.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy and bless are those who hear and who keep what is written therein, for the time is near.

The D version: Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy and bless are those who hear and who keep what is written therein, for the time is rapid(?).

Rev 4:1 Come up hither and I will show you waht must take place after this. (This was after the letters to the churches that no longer exist today but did at the time of the writing. How do you deal with this time marker?)

Rev 5:10- O Sovereign Lord. holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood...Then they were...told to rest a little longer until the number of their fellow servants should be complete who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (2000 years is not a little time)

Rev 22:7, 12 and 20: Behold I am coming soon... behold I am coming soon, surely I am coming soon (I guess you guys mean when he comes it will happen fast as though that gives some information. What difference does slow or fast make for us?

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches...(that no longer exist)

Those are internal markers as to the time period and for whom the book was intended.

 

[DorothyMae]

John mentions 7 churches in Rev 2-3. If you look at Paul's writings, he wrote letters to 7 churches. However, only 1 church (Ephesus) mentioned by John in Rev 2-3 was included in Paul's writings.

Does that mean Paul's writings were not to be read and understood by the churches John mentioned in Rev 2-3?

What do you mean here? I don't understand your point. John wrote a prophetic words to 7 churches with warnings etc for them from God with the authority of Jesus that if they did not comply not good things would happen. Paul wrote letters to churches with warnings, etc for them but no warning from GOd if they did not comply. I do not see what one man writing letters to churches has to do with another man giving warnings from the Lord.

Or does that mean John's writings were not to be read by churches to which Paul wrote letters?

No, of course not.

We read the letters written in churches as to us. We do not read the prophesy to various groups (Revelation was only one) and say God is telling us this is us and we had better do as said or else the disaster predicted will happen. An epistle is not the same as a prophetic word.

In our day and time, we are to read what Paul wrote to Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, Thessalonica.

In our day and time, we are to read what John wrote to the churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea.


By insinuating that the writing could only benefit the specific church mentioned and that no other church can learn and benefit from the instruction except that church is not proper understanding of the purpose of Scripture.

A prophet warning writing to a particular church cannot be applied to every Christian. An epistle written to the church in general eventually can. WHo reads the words of the book of Revelation and applies those letters to themselves expecting the disaster predicted if they do not comply?

 

[Truth7t7]

Where did I ever say that? Many Jews have already perished without Jesus.

True, all those Jews remaining at the time of Christ's return will be saved.

There will be no time for salvation for any human, as Jesus Christ returns as a thief, in the twinkling of an eye.

Your claim is false, in suggesting that all ethnic Jews on earth will be saved at the appearance of Jesus Christ?

A Big Fairy Tale!

 

[crossnote]

Just for fun, I decided to read again Revelation last night before going to sleep. Did not finish it but found some time markers. Let's see if the Greek scholars can explain away all the words used, different words, to indicate soon.

Looking for 'gotcha passages' is not the recommended way to read God's Word.

 

[DorothyMae]

Looking for 'gotcha passages' is not the recommended way to read God's Word.

I wasn't and did not say so. I just started reading it and those markers popped out. You are attributing an attitude or purpose I did not have.

 

[DorothyMae]

Where did I ever say that? Many Jews have already perished without Jesus.

True, all those Jews remaining at the time of Christ's return will be saved.

And none of this bothers you? The theology blightly condemns all the Jews, the majority, who perished unbelieving and only the lucky ones who are there when Jesus comes are saved. The point is that those who believe this usually rest on "all Israel will be saved" kind of promise when most of Israel has already prerished not saved and that will not change.

If one sees "Israel" as all those who believe will be saved, then one has no problem with this and neednt have an idea that Jesus will appear and have more success with the Jews than last time he appeared.

 

[crossnote]

Your claim is false, in suggesting that all ethnic Jews on earth will be saved at the appearance of Jesus Christ.

A Big Fairy Tale!

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:25-26)

I suppose you are willing to call Scripture a Big Fairy Tale?
Remember, Paul is writing in response to 'what about the Jew?', all the way back from Romans 9 (if you care about context).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Just for fun, I decided to read again Revelation last night before going to sleep. Did not finish it but found some time markers. Let's see if the Greek scholars can explain away all the words used, different words, to indicate soon.
Rev 1:1 The revelation of JC which God have him to show to his servants what must soon take place.
The Dispensational version: The revelation of JC which God gave him to show to his servants what must rapidly take place.

Right out of the gate, your two sentences [/choices] are showing ADVERBS.

The word in 1:1 is not an ADVERB ["soon" "quickLY" "immediateLY" "rapidLY" etc]. (Same for 22:6, btw.)

The word instead is a NOUN.

Try again.





["[things which must come to pass] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (Now compare the phrase "things which must come to pass" part with the wording found in 1:19c [which is NOT the same as 1:19b or 1:19a, but is DISTINCT from them] AND in 4:1--same thing being communicated in each of these three sections... and that's just for starters...)]

 

[crossnote]

And none of this bothers you? The theology blightly condemns all the Jews, the majority, who perished unbelieving and only the lucky ones who are there when Jesus comes are saved. The point is that those who believe this usually rest on "all Israel will be saved" kind of promise when most of Israel has already prerished not saved and that will not change.

If one sees "Israel" as all those who believe will be saved, then one has no problem with this and neednt have an idea that Jesus will appear and have more success with the Jews than last time he appeared.

I haven't a clue what you are trying to say, besides is your name Truth7t7?

 

[DorothyMae]

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:25-26)

I suppose you are willing to call Scripture a Big Fairy Tale?
Remember, Paul is writing in response to 'what about the Jew?', all the way back from Romans 9 (if you care about context).

Just who is "all Israel" because the majority of the Jews since Jesus have perished and will never be saved?

It seems pretty absurd to assume that because one generation of Jews, many of whom are atheists, will suddenly become Christians and that one time slot fulfilled that statment of Paul which includes "all"...like every single one of them, most of whom do not live in Israel.

 

[DorothyMae]

Right out of the gate, your two sentences [/choices] are showing ADVERBS.

The word in 1:1 is not an ADVERB ["soon" "quickLY" "immediateLY" "rapidLY" etc]. (Same for 22:6, btw.)

The word instead is a NOUN.

Try again.





["[things which must come to pass] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (Now compare the phrase "things which must come to pass" part with the wording found in 1:19c [which is NOT the same as 1:19b or 1:19a, but is DISTINCT from them] AND in 4:1--same thing being communicated in each of these three sections... and that's just for starters...)]

This does not make sense. I can write that something will happen rapidly (adjective) or say it will happen in quickness (noun) and what meaning has changed?

 

[crossnote]

I wasn't and did not say so. I just started reading it and those markers popped out. You are attributing an attitude or purpose I did not have.

No, I am going by your actual actions and 'gotcha' game playing.

 

[DorothyMae]

I haven't a clue what you are trying to say, besides is your name Truth7t7?

My name is a humble DorothyMae.

 

[crossnote]

Just who is "all Israel" because the majority of the Jews since Jesus have perished and will never be saved?

It seems pretty absurd to assume that because one generation of Jews, many of whom are atheists, will suddenly become Christians and that one time slot fulfilled that statment of Paul which includes "all"...like every single one of them, most of whom do not live in Israel.

That is the purpose of the Great Trib, to bring the Jew to repentance.

 

[DorothyMae]

No, I am going by tour actual actions and 'gotcha' game playing.

Well, I guess the words that indicate it was communicating an event that was to happen within a few years was too much. This is the problem with your side of the discussion. You guys tend to leave when you cannot answer throwing up sand to hide the departure or repeat the theology.

The book of Revelation has more than one indicator of the events described were about to happen and the recepients were to take the words and take heart because horrible times were coming but they would be short lived for the church in general (although many of them would perish.) It was its purpose and it accomplished that. It is interesting to see that the theology you espouse is unwilling to stand up and defend itself when new material is presented. I bet the "left behind" guys never talked about the words that cannot be changed to "rapidly" with some fancy Greek footwork.

 

[DorothyMae]

That is the purpose of the Great Trib, to bring the Jew to repentance.

That is not what John said the purpose of the events were. From wence are you getting this?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture, the Church will be present on this earth during the 3.5 year tribulation.

You are mis-defining the phrase "the Day of the Lord" in the same way that the "amill-teachings" mis-defines it.

Paul tells us in 1Th5:2-3 that its ARRIVAL is like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"... and Jesus spoke of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (SAME Grk word). When you begin to align these two passages, you'll then begin to "define" the phrase ("the DOTL") according to the Bible's way of defining it, and not the "amill-teachings' " way of MIS-defining it, as you are currently doing.

You are taking a misstep here, that is leading you off track.



"The Day of the Lord" is not "a singular 24-hr day".




Additionally, the two phrases below are distinct:

--"...that the DOTL shall come like a thief IN THE NIGHT" (THIS refers to the ARRIVAL of the EARTHLY-located "TIME PERIOD");

--"Behold, I come AS A THIEF." (THIS refers to Jesus Himself, in His PERSONAL PRESENCE / HIS PERSON)


... these two items do not take place at the same moment / point-in-time; one PRECEDES the other, in the "chronology."

You'll be better able to see that, once you do what I said at the top of this post (re: the ARRIVAL of that TIME PERIOD being like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]"... the FIRST of the very ones Jesus had spoken of in His Olivet Discourse.)