The Purpose of Speaking in Tongues

[Nehemiah6]

Regardless of his Kelby's beliefs, by the guidelines in place, this is a study of what tongues were and what it was for. Speaking in tongues is in the Bible. That makes it worthy of study.

Yes. But not to justify modern tongues (glossolalia).

1. Firstly, Christians should consistently substitute the word "language' or "languages" for "tongues" (which was a translation for glossa or glossais, not glossolalia). Back in the 17th century "tongue" was used interchangeable for "language" as seen in the KJV. Today, several modern versions have used the word "language" to clarify the matter.

2. Acts chapter 2 clearly shows us that at least fifteen foreign languages were spoken by Galileans SUPERNATURALLY. They were not coached by human beings, they did not go to language schools, and they certainly did not babble.

3. God already told the Jews that the speaking in foreign languages to them would be A SIGN to expose their UNBELIEF. And that is exactly what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14. Today, the Gospel is going out primarily to Gentiles, and the power of the Gospel (accompanied by the Holy Spiriti) itself is sufficient according to Scripture.

4. No spiritual gift was given for SELF-EDIFICATION. All the gifts were given to edify others, and thus edify the Body of Christ.

5. The gift of tongues was NOT meant to be a prayer language at all. Indeed, Paul was telling the Corinthians that when they were speaking in tongues without an interpreter (so that only God heard them), they were VIOLATING the process by failing to interpret or have an interpreter. He therefore insisted that if anyone spoke in tongues an interpreter must be present. On the day of Pentecost, there was no need for interpreters, since every man heard what was said in his own language.

6. Paul limited the gift of tongues to two or three speakers only within a church meeting. That is not what happens today.

7. Paul (actually God) forbade women to speak in tongues or speak within a church meeting. They were to maintain silence within the churches. That is not what happens today.

8. Paul clearly stated that the gift of foreign languages spoken supernaturally would cease when the Scriptures had been completed. That would be along with prophecy and supernatural knowledge, since there would be no further need for this gift. So biblical tongues are no longer spoken.

 

[wolfwint]

@wolfwint I don't like the comparison / guilt-by-association idea. (A.K.A. One person does something bad... So everyone with that hair color must be guilty of it too). So I"m going to simply use myself as "the bad guy with the holy ghost, babbly modern tongues-talking that did something super stupid" so we don't have to look for someone else.

I'll briefly tell you what I did, how bad it looked, what it resulted in, and THEN I'll tell you how God fixed all that stupidity because that's what God does when we repent and love him. He doesn't bash us with a YouTube video of our stupidity for the rest of our lives and tell everyone we were stupid for allowing ourselves to be vulnerable.

I was new to the faith, though I'd been raised reading the bible, going to a Baptist church and following Baptist doctrine. (Not trying to bash Baptists) But I'd recently been baptized in Jesus' name for remission of sins and received the Holy Ghost with the "modern", babbly, non-understandable speaking in tongues (through another church). And I loved it. I realized God was REAL, and he'd given me something I didn't have before, to pray things I didn't know. So I wanted to do anything I could to get more of God, and to get God to move more. So I thought "How did they get God to move in the bible? What else did the powerful ones do?"

And I thought of Moses and Jesus...what did they do that others didn't? Answer: FASTING They each fasted 40 days and God moved with them mightily.

But I was young and in a hurry. So I thought "40 days is a long time to wait. Isn't there a faster way?" Then I remembered Saul/Paul when God showed up to him on the road to Damascus. After God spoke to him, he was left blind for 3 days and neither ate nor drank until Ananias arrived to pray for him....and he received the Holy Ghost and God moved mightily for and through him. So I said "That's it! I've just got to add the not drinking part and I can get the same results in a 3-day fast!"

So I set out to do that. And guess what. The not-eating part is easy but the not drinking part (when you work full time as a cook) is kinda hard because you dehydrate, get hot, and your heart starts pounding as your blood thickens. So I repeatedly would fail my fast, eat, drink and start over to fullfil my promise. Turns out that fasting alot causes a loss of body mass. (Who knew?..lol) But I wasn't letting anything (including advice from pastors, teachers and brethren in Christ) sway me from my task. I was zealous and determined to complete my fast and get God to move. I eventually did but only JUST before the next thing happened.

So my repeated fast/fail/fast cycle caused a dramatic loss of body weight. At 5'11-1/2"tall I think I was 128-lbs when the cops took me from my home to the Psych ward for a "48 hour evaluation". <--yup, that happened (They weighed me immediately upon arrival). And if you show up on a Friday evening, they don't count the weekend so you get a bonus 48 hours of Saturday and Sunday (Just so you know).

It also turns out that if you've recently joined a Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues church just before you radically change your life style and lose a bunch of body weight, the group you just joined gets labelled "A CULT", and they start investigations. (Did I mention I don't do anything half-way?) The next morning God opened my understanding as to what I was doing wrong, and I immediately stopped the fast I was currently on, and was eventually released in the minimum amount of time. (Had to ask him why he couldn't have shown me that a day or two sooner..lol)

But meanwhile, I'd embarrassed my family, embarrassed myself, embarrassed my church and ruined my reputation in my home town (in which I also worked at the local Happy Chef Restaurant). And I asked God " I know you have forgiven me, but how are you going to restore my reputation?"

Fast forward 20-ish years and I was elected mayor of that same town, serving 3 terms. (At which point I concluded that God had more than restored my reputation.) Feel free to Google "Kelby, mayor, Iowa" if you need to verify the last part. I'm guessing HIPAA laws restrict looking into the other.

My point is that you don't have to say "look at the stupid things those other tongues-speakers do". You can just point at me. But God's got my back. He did then, and he does now.

And now that you know some "bad", it would be of value for you to ask "What kind of benefits make all of that bad (and more) worth enduring, along with the ridicule?" because the benefits are what this thread is about. They greatly outweigh the downsides.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Kelby, thank you for your open Post. I am sorry to Hit your feelings.
When I turned to Christ I was open for every Christian denomination, because they belong to Jesus. Then I found out that the teachings are very different in certain denominations.
I met also Christians from pentecost churches. ( never heared them speaking in tongues) which told me I should also ask God intensivly to get this gift. So I tryed when I was alone to produce voices. No words, a Kind of what came into my mind. I then recognized that I produced them by myself and it was not speaking in tongues. And I felt Strange to do this. From this time on itvwas clear time that this was not something for me.
I was in an denomination which was very proud about what their denomination is doing in the ministry. When became a Follower of Christ, I felt to be a Christian and not an Baptist ore Mennonite ore something else. I observe that mostly the different denominations believe they alone be the right church, you know what I mean?
So the differences in the denominations are men made differences of any biblical issue.
This can work solong Christ is in center.

But different to this is the pentecostal and charismatic teaching. Because here the claim is that God createt this in Azusa. Not an man made some doctrine, but God himself.

From this time on was an gab in the followers of Christ which, I suppose was not found before.

Now, if you say I am not believing this doctrine you stand against God himself. If this doctrine is true.
And this is the different to all the man createt denominations.
If you are against this pentecostal/ carismatic teaching you are against God. And make you to an secondclass Christian, because you dont have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and as Sign for this the gift of speaking in tongues.

And this I simply do not believe. In the consequence this mean for example, that before 1907/8 was no real Christian to find in australia. Its reportet that in this year the First Person was found to be baptised with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.

Because it splits christianity I dont believe that the Holy Spirit is behind this teaching.

Now 30 years later I realize that the influence if this teaching is in almost all denominations ( I speak for germany)
And it makes no different you believe in RCC doctrine ore anything else. It is right because you have the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the gift of speaking in tongues.

I am not against the Person who believes that he is following Christ in the right way in teaching this. Many grew up in an pentecostal church and dont know something else.

I dont know you will understand my point. I know I got the Holy Spirit and I got also the gift of discerning the Spirit. For any purpose he gave it to me. You may believe me ore not.

 

[garee]

Even though I am a fan of that verse, it's a question mark to whether it's from the original text or a later add on. I know the meaning, but to use it in a debate is opening a door for those who oppose. No need to add fuel to an already raging fire.

Whether what is from the original text or a later add on? In regard to the word "new tongues "? or the whole verse.

If the new tongue is not prophecy the gospel how could it cast out demons?

 

[Kavik]

This isnt trying to be smart alecky but That is exactly what we're saying. "NO man" includes the speaker.

That's why Paul goes on to say "if I speak in an unknown tongue" (which aparently is possible) "my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful" (aka my brain doesn't know what's being asked...which is also why others can't say amen because they also don't know what is being said, even though it is a good prayer)

No, actually it does not. The phrase translated literally is “no one hears (with understanding)”. Got to use a bit of common sense here. The fact that no one understands the speaker, does not automatically assume the speaker himself doesn’t understand what he’s saying. If this phrase were taken completely out of a religious context and used in a general conversation, no one would even question whether the speaker knows what he’s saying or not.

For the modern tongues-speaker, the only way that this phrase can be used to ‘evidence’ the modern phenomenon is if the speaker himself doesn’t understand what he is saying. This is part of the Pentecostal redefinition of certain “tongues texts” in the early 1900’s to justify what it is they were producing, since the original supposition of xenoglossy certainly wasn’t it.

1 Cor 14:14
This one could easily take a few pages to explain properly, but I'll try and sum it up as briefly as possible.....

This passage hinges on the Greek word “akarpos” – which can be used in both in an active sense and in a passive sense.

Most people use it in this passage in the passive sense, i.e. my understanding is unfruitful (to me), or my understanding produces no fruit in/for me. In short, what I'm saying doesn't benefit me as I have no idea what I'm saying even though, as you point out, I am praying a good prayer.

To go off on a bit of a tangent - "Praying in the Spirit" does not refer to the words one is saying. Rather, it refers to how one is praying. In the three places it is used (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude), there is absolutely zero reference to 'languages' in connection with this phrase. “Praying in the Spirit” should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will. In Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance however, the phase has come to be equated with modern “tongues”, i.e. when one “prays in the Spirit”, one is typically engaged in some form of tongues-speech.

Given that Paul, in his letter, calls for clarity and understanding at a public worship such that everyone there can benefit, I (as well as others) would argue for the active sense of ‘akarpos’: that is, my understanding is unfruitful for others, or my understanding produces no fruit for/in others.

In other words, the fact I understand what I’m saying does not benefit anyone else as they don’t speak my language.

Now, before you think using this passage with an active meaning is something far-fetched, or a new concept, or a recent ‘theory’, I would ask you to consider Luther’s Bible of 1534 - written almost 500 years ago, and some 30 years before King James VI and I was even born.

This same passage is rendered (in English) “...my understanding brings no one fruit”. Even almost 500 years ago, the idea of this passage having an active usage was nothing new. Indeed, an active understanding/reading fits better with Paul’s intent of clarity so all may benefit. Further, it's clear here the speaker is praying in a particular (known) language; his native language.

There’s just no evidence whatsoever of modern tongues-speech here. The speaker understands perfectly well what he’s saying; again, it’s the audience who doesn’t understand, and thus does not benefit.

Bottom line - the speaker of "tongues" in the Bible always understands what he is saying - it's the listeners who do not.

 

[CS1]

No Problem, I have nothing to add.
One thing, as I said please dont read in my post what I did not wrote. This is not fair.
With no word I deneyd what is written in the bible!
What I dont believe is, that everything is for today, as it was in the apostolic time.
Otherwise you could convince me easily.

Then you should read your post again were
You mentioned acts 1,8. Your second mentioning of this vers is different to the First.

Is it wrong that pentecostals teach that through baptising with the Holy Spirit they will get power from Him?
If this is wrong, then I am in deed not well informed.
I used this as an example.
If you teach this then the corinthian church must be full of believers which received the same power as the Apostles received.
Paul gave the church the testamonie, that they are Spiritual Babys. ( 1. Cor. 3,1-2)
Can it be that you Use the word which was spoken to the Apostles in acts 1,8 for yourself and the believers today?
Then give me the proof, that you have the same power as the Apostles had.
Then all the pentecostal believers must have the same power, like the apostle had.
Is this true?

I know many believers and missionaries which are a witness for the Lord without speaking an single word in tongues.

According pentecostal teaching they can this only do with the baptising with the Holy Spirit and as proof for that the gift of speaking in tongues.

Btw, I dont believe that any existing denomination is to 100% in there teachings, including me.

Kelby wantet to have this thread only for to discuss about the purpose of speaking in tongues in the apostolic time.
So we nicely spoiled it. Sorry again.

again it was Jesus said you will have power IF reading Acts 1:8.

"Then all the pentecostal believers must have the same power, like the apostle had.
Is this true?"


The power you receive is to be a "witness."
Even 1cor says not all heal or speak in tongues but to desire the gift that is needed at the time.

Try reading the Bible guy

 

[CS1]

I agree with all of that except the last few words. We distinctly need to serve others selflessly, but my experience is that as we serve others, it benefits the individual at least as much. Kind of the "It is more blessed to give than receive". But that is NOT a point of contention. I greatly appreciate the point of your post, and agree.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

the last few words I said "the power of God that service people, not one's self

 

[garee]

Even then, the interpreter is listening to Paul and can easily convey what he is specifically claiming here. Whether from a first hand account or interpretation, it appears they had no issue in understanding Paul is discussing the Holy Spirit's Gift of Tongues. And that makes the importance of Speaking in Tongues more vital, in my opinion.

I would suggest. The tongue of God's prophecy is the interpretation. Nothing can be added to it or taken way from it as it works in and with each individual to both will and perform the good pleasure of Christ who we are yoked with .He makes a burden lighter.

No such thing as a "sign (self edifying ) gift".

Spiritual gifts yes, all remain.

Jesus said it is natural man (evil generation) not having the understanding given in parables, they seek after a sign as a wonderment seen. none was given

This shows they have no faith coming from the scripture. But is rather earthly inspired by men. Taking away the understanding of the scriptures .The work of the Potter. Not the clay as oral traditions of men.

In Isaiah 29 the second chapter that provides additional information on the foundation of the tongue's law. It helps us understand why he assigned the spirit of judgement as mockers of the Potter.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

In that way no man can serve two teaching Masters as Lord . The written tradition of God and the oral traditions of men .

Jesus said to Peter when he started a oral tradition of what Jesus did not say. Jesus said if every time he did the work of dispelling the oral traditions of corrupted mankind and they were written down we would need a bigger Earth to store the books .

LOL The cold case library of lies.

What is vital is the foundation of the law of tongues, the prophecy of God. It must first be viewed .

If we build on his good foundation found in Isiah 28 with the oral traditions (wood and stubble) of men who seeks after signs as wonderments then anything goes. Its an evil generation of faithless men that seek after another source of faith rather than the tongue of God's prophecy.

If it is a evil and God has given us a sign that shows those who follow after another authority other than sola scriptura.

The Holy Spirit has revealed in several parables the spirit of judgement "falling backward" same as in to break ones neck
Hanging in the bible is used in the same way as the "spirit of judgement" .. both examples are used with the false apostle Judas.

 

[garee]

No Problem, I have nothing to add.
One thing, as I said please dont read in my post what I did not wrote. This is not fair.
With no word I deneyd what is written in the bible!
What I dont believe is, that everything is for today, as it was in the apostolic time.
Otherwise you could convince me easily.

Then you should read your post again were
You mentioned acts 1,8. Your second mentioning of this vers is different to the First.

Is it wrong that pentecostals teach that through baptising with the Holy Spirit they will get power from Him?
If this is wrong, then I am in deed not well informed.
I used this as an example.
If you teach this then the corinthian church must be full of believers which received the same power as the Apostles received.
Paul gave the church the testamonie, that they are Spiritual Babys. ( 1. Cor. 3,1-2)
Can it be that you Use the word which was spoken to the Apostles in acts 1,8 for yourself and the believers today?
Then give me the proof, that you have the same power as the Apostles had.
Then all the pentecostal believers must have the same power, like the apostle had.
Is this true?

I know many believers and missionaries which are a witness for the Lord without speaking an single word in tongues.

According pentecostal teaching they can this only do with the baptising with the Holy Spirit and as proof for that the gift of speaking in tongues.

Btw, I dont believe that any existing denomination is to 100% in there teachings, including me.

Kelby wantet to have this thread only for to discuss about the purpose of speaking in tongues in the apostolic time.
So we nicely spoiled it. Sorry again.

We must be careful how we hear. One word with a new meaning added can change intent of the author causing a person to commit plagiarism. A opportunity to violate the first commandment.

He has given us tools to safeguard his interpretation. ( Deuteronomy 4:2 and at the end Revelation 22 )

As apologist we defend the faith that works in us keeping us safe and comforted .Those tools I offered above can be part of the armor of God to protect the integrity of his word

The idea of "sign gifts" is not different than the idea of "apostolic time". No such doctrine of God. Simply another doctrine of man .

There are apostles today. Go out into the word two by two with the gospel is a living commandment just as in the days of Cain and Abel.

Abel the first recorded martyr, prophet, apostle .

 

[wolfwint]

again it was Jesus said you will have power IF reading Acts 1:8.

"Then all the pentecostal believers must have the same power, like the apostle had.
Is this true?"


The power you receive is to be a "witness."
Even 1cor says not all heal or speak in tongues but to desire the gift that is needed at the time.

Try reading the Bible guy

Well, you Use Kjv? Then please read: ".... ye shall receive power...... and ye shall be witnisses...."
In my understanding this means not only receive power to be a witness.
They received in deed power from the Holy Spirit.

 

[CS1]

Well, you Use Kjv? Then please read: ".... ye shall receive power...... and ye shall be witnisses...."
In my understanding this means not only receive power to be a witness.
They received in deed power from the Holy Spirit.

That is not what is said

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: This is the cause

and ye shall be witnesses unto me this is the effect



both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. This is the purpose

To reach the lost. Just Like Jesus said and did HIMself

 

[wolfwint]

That is not what is said

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: This is the cause

and ye shall be witnesses unto me this is the effect



both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. This is the purpose

To reach the lost. Just Like Jesus said and did HIMself

But then what means power?

 

[wolfwint]

We must be careful how we hear. One word with a new meaning added can change intent of the author causing a person to commit plagiarism. A opportunity to violate the first commandment.

He has given us tools to safeguard his interpretation. ( Deuteronomy 4:2 and at the end Revelation 22 )

As apologist we defend the faith that works in us keeping us safe and comforted .Those tools I offered above can be part of the armor of God to protect the integrity of his word

The idea of "sign gifts" is not different than the idea of "apostolic time". No such doctrine of God. Simply another doctrine of man .

There are apostles today. Go out into the word two by two with the gospel is a living commandment just as in the days of Cain and Abel.

Abel the first recorded martyr, prophet, apostle .

Well I agree " sign gifts" and " apostolic time" are man made terms to describe certain issues. And of course I thought falsley that this are Common terms which knows from all.
Well, I cant see that we today have Apostles, as we found in acts.

 

[biker]

Where in the Bible did it say the Gift of Tongues would end when man said it would end?

WOLFWINT,
You forgot to show me where this ^ is at in the Bible, Brother!

 

[CS1]

But then what means power?

What does power mean? here in Acts 1:8, it is dunamis,.

When the Bible uses the word dunamis, it never refers to our strength or ability but rather to His power through us. It is His power alone that keeps us, while forming our character as we glorify Him.

 

[biker]

Whether what is from the original text or a later add on? In regard to the word "new tongues "? or the whole verse.

If the new tongue is not prophecy the gospel how could it cast out demons?

First of all, you're casting out demons by the Holy Ghost, not by the Gifts of the Holy Ghost. And to cast out demons requires Fasting and Faith in God it will take place, not the Gifts.

 

[CS1]

WOLFWINT,
You forgot to show me where this ^ is at in the Bible, Brother!

it is not there.

 

[biker]

I would suggest. The tongue of God's prophecy is the interpretation. Nothing can be added to it or taken way from it as it works in and with each individual to both will and perform the good pleasure of Christ who we are yoked with .He makes a burden lighter.

No such thing as a "sign (self edifying ) gift".

Spiritual gifts yes, all remain.

Jesus said it is natural man (evil generation) not having the understanding given in parables, they seek after a sign as a wonderment seen. none was given

This shows they have no faith coming from the scripture. But is rather earthly inspired by men. Taking away the understanding of the scriptures .The work of the Potter. Not the clay as oral traditions of men.

In Isaiah 29 the second chapter that provides additional information on the foundation of the tongue's law. It helps us understand why he assigned the spirit of judgement as mockers of the Potter.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

In that way no man can serve two teaching Masters as Lord . The written tradition of God and the oral traditions of men .

Jesus said to Peter when he started a oral tradition of what Jesus did not say. Jesus said if every time he did the work of dispelling the oral traditions of corrupted mankind and they were written down we would need a bigger Earth to store the books .

LOL The cold case library of lies.

What is vital is the foundation of the law of tongues, the prophecy of God. It must first be viewed .

If we build on his good foundation found in Isiah 28 with the oral traditions (wood and stubble) of men who seeks after signs as wonderments then anything goes. Its an evil generation of faithless men that seek after another source of faith rather than the tongue of God's prophecy.

If it is a evil and God has given us a sign that shows those who follow after another authority other than sola scriptura.

The Holy Spirit has revealed in several parables the spirit of judgement "falling backward" same as in to break ones neck
Hanging in the bible is used in the same way as the "spirit of judgement" .. both examples are used with the false apostle Judas.

I would suggest you stop adding to what the Gift of Tongues is.
IT IS NOT PROPHECY!
It's a GIFT!

 

[biker]

Interpretation is not a prophetic word related to Speaking in Tongues, it's an EXPLANATION!

 

[garee]

First of all, you're casting out demons by the Holy Ghost, not by the Gifts of the Holy Ghost. And to cast out demons requires Fasting and Faith in God it will take place, not the Gifts.

So prophecy the tongue of God is not a gift of the Holy Ghost? But making senseless baby sounds and falling back slain in the spirit . Does cast out demons? The legion?

To fast is to bring the gospel. . . God's perfect law . The gospel or power of God it cast out demons.

The Bible says our new tongue (the gospel) does the work . Sends them out two, by two to plant the seed. .

Have you looked at the foundation of the doctrine yet? It is found in Isaiah 28 same one spoken of 1 Corinthians 14 . Two witnesses to one doctrine.

Why mock the word the Tongue of God with a oral tradition of men?( Look I did it) Its easy to see that tongues is simply prophecy. The one source of Christian faith .

 

[CS1]

First of all, you're casting out demons by the Holy Ghost, not by the Gifts of the Holy Ghost. And to cast out demons requires Fasting and Faith in God it will take place, not the Gifts.

Jesus said this type only come out by fasting and prayer but it is faith that does it. And the authority of the Lord Jesus in the believer.