I tried to post it on the thread, "Is Jesus Michael the arc angel" but it would not post it. I keep getting a message about 10,000, whatever that means. Anyway, here is my answer to him.
I read with interest with your presentation from wake-up.org and what Larry Wilson had to say. A couple of points that I find are not Biblcal is when you said, "Jesus was (a God) who lived with the Father before the world was created." At first glance I would have said this guy is a Jehovah Witness but upon reading further this is not the case. Despite that, Jesus is not "a God" even if you use a captial "G." And yes, I know the Greek does not have upper case letters until the modern era.
You also said this in your presentation, "
1.Messiah = the Prince
2.Michael = the great prince
3.If this is true, and two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, this means the Messiah and Michael are one and the same Person, Jesus Christ.
This is impossible and I'm going to explain why. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." The word actually means "messenger." For example, Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts."
The "malak/angel/messenger" who will clear the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. And John is not an angel. Mark 1:1-3 confirms who this angel is. In fact, it might interest you to know that the prophet Malachi, who is a human prophet, well his name is from the root word "malak."
Now, who in the verse is "the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant who will come to His temple? It can't be Michael the arc angel because Michael is an actual real live angel. Jesus Christ is actually and really the Son of God who was with God His Father and is God according to John 1:1. They are not three Gods as you claim. They are the one God manifested as three distinct persons. And btw, not three as you said, "separate" persons, but distinct persons. The words separate and distinct have a different meaning.
The angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. He multiplies Hagar's descendants at vs10. At vs13 she says, "Thou art a God who sees," for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" Look at what Genesis 17:1,2 says, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD APPEARED to Abram and said to him, "I, am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."
The the Lord God who claimed to be God Almighty is the same being who appeared to Hagar and multiplied Hagar's descendants. Btw, the Lord God appeared to Abram physically. This is backed up by Genesis 17:22. Also, the angel of the Lord (which you referenced) appeared to Abraham at Genesis 18 along with two actual angels. Michael the arc angel is a created angel just like the two angels at Genesis 18 who appeared in human form. Jesus Christ is "NOT" an actual angel but strickly a messenger just like John the Baptist who is not an actual angel.
The context dictates how the word "malak" is used. Now for the good part. Going to Genesis 22 (which you brought up but conflated Michael and Jesus as being one and the same person) cannot be true. You have the angel of the Lord/the preincarnate Jesus Christ calling out to heaven two times, vs11,15. Vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, (not declares Michael), because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your only son, (of course Abraham had other sons), vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens etc." Vs18m because you have obeyed My voice."
To back all this up we can go to Hebrews 6:13,14, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF." vs14, saying, "I will surely blesds you, and I will surely multiply you." Angels, specifically Michael cannot swear oaths on behalf of God, period. Jesus Christ created Michael and all the rest of the angels and everything else has been created by Him. In your presentation you make a lot of "assumptions" which is not how you exegete Scripture. Just because Michael is named a prince and so is Jesus Christ does not mean they are one and the same person. Just because Jesus has the voice of an arc angel does not mean He is an actual angel. You need to be more "diligent" in studying your Bible.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I read with interest with your presentation from wake-up.org and what Larry Wilson had to say. A couple of points that I find are not Biblcal is when you said, "Jesus was (a God) who lived with the Father before the world was created." At first glance I would have said this guy is a Jehovah Witness but upon reading further this is not the case. Despite that, Jesus is not "a God" even if you use a captial "G." And yes, I know the Greek does not have upper case letters until the modern era.
You also said this in your presentation, "
1.Messiah = the Prince
2.Michael = the great prince
3.If this is true, and two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, this means the Messiah and Michael are one and the same Person, Jesus Christ.
This is impossible and I'm going to explain why. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." The word actually means "messenger." For example, Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts."
The "malak/angel/messenger" who will clear the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. And John is not an angel. Mark 1:1-3 confirms who this angel is. In fact, it might interest you to know that the prophet Malachi, who is a human prophet, well his name is from the root word "malak."
Now, who in the verse is "the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant who will come to His temple? It can't be Michael the arc angel because Michael is an actual real live angel. Jesus Christ is actually and really the Son of God who was with God His Father and is God according to John 1:1. They are not three Gods as you claim. They are the one God manifested as three distinct persons. And btw, not three as you said, "separate" persons, but distinct persons. The words separate and distinct have a different meaning.
The angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. He multiplies Hagar's descendants at vs10. At vs13 she says, "Thou art a God who sees," for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" Look at what Genesis 17:1,2 says, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD APPEARED to Abram and said to him, "I, am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."
The the Lord God who claimed to be God Almighty is the same being who appeared to Hagar and multiplied Hagar's descendants. Btw, the Lord God appeared to Abram physically. This is backed up by Genesis 17:22. Also, the angel of the Lord (which you referenced) appeared to Abraham at Genesis 18 along with two actual angels. Michael the arc angel is a created angel just like the two angels at Genesis 18 who appeared in human form. Jesus Christ is "NOT" an actual angel but strickly a messenger just like John the Baptist who is not an actual angel.
The context dictates how the word "malak" is used. Now for the good part. Going to Genesis 22 (which you brought up but conflated Michael and Jesus as being one and the same person) cannot be true. You have the angel of the Lord/the preincarnate Jesus Christ calling out to heaven two times, vs11,15. Vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, (not declares Michael), because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your only son, (of course Abraham had other sons), vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens etc." Vs18m because you have obeyed My voice."
To back all this up we can go to Hebrews 6:13,14, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF." vs14, saying, "I will surely blesds you, and I will surely multiply you." Angels, specifically Michael cannot swear oaths on behalf of God, period. Jesus Christ created Michael and all the rest of the angels and everything else has been created by Him. In your presentation you make a lot of "assumptions" which is not how you exegete Scripture. Just because Michael is named a prince and so is Jesus Christ does not mean they are one and the same person. Just because Jesus has the voice of an arc angel does not mean He is an actual angel. You need to be more "diligent" in studying your Bible.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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