"Not by works" - false!

[jackrosie]

How can anyone believe in God.....if they haven’t received the Holy Spirit?

When I was in darkness I was alienated from God.....it wasn’t until I became born again that I realised that.

Without God in your life you are just living for self....for me my life had no meaning and was a mess.

 

[mailmandan]

How can anyone believe in God.....if they haven’t received the Holy Spirit?

When I was in darkness I was alienated from God.....it wasn’t until I became born again that I realised that.

Without God in your life you are just living for self....for me my life had no meaning and was a mess.

There are many people who are "religious, but not right with God" who believe in the existence of God, but have not yet received the Holy Spirit because they do not believe the gospel. Such people may even have historical faith in Jesus, that is, they believe in the existence of Jesus and in historical facts about Jesus, along with the historical fact that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened," but until such people believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, they will remain alienated from God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are many people who are "religious, but not right with God" who believe in the existence of God, but have not yet received the Holy Spirit because they do not believe the gospel. Such people may even have historical faith in Jesus, that is, they believe in the existence of Jesus and in historical facts about Jesus, along with the historical fact that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened," but until such people believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, they will remain alienated from God.

Amen. As James said even demons believe

 

[mailmandan]

Amen. As James said even demons believe

Amen! The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

 

[jackrosie]

Amen! The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

If they believe that....then they don’t have the Spirit of God in them....they believe in self.

Without the Holy Spirit in ones Heart....it’s impossible to please him or walk in the Spirit...you have to be born again to walk in the Spirit.

 

[Reformyourself]

Amanda (whoever she is) and you have absolutely nothing to do with the issue being discussed.

A-man-duh

 

[Reformyourself]

Amen! The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

Legion said ‘I know who you are, the holy one if G_d’ they know who He is 😐

 

[Reformyourself]

Agreed
I read 3 of his posts and put him on IGNORE. I also reported him a while back (I think first time I have ever done that). Just ignore him.

Stop being meanyheads & stop grassing people up (nobody likes a grass)😐

 

[mailmandan]

Legion said ‘I know who you are, the holy one if G_d’ they know who He is 😐

Yes, they know who Jesus is, but their trust and reliance is in Satan and not in Jesus.

 

[Judges1318]

Wow ... I didn't expect that answer. The semi-pelagian response is usually: "Faith is not a work". I assume you are semi-pelagian. You can correct the label if I am wrong.

Semi-pelagian Definition: a person (as a theologian of a 5th or 6th century monastery in Gaul) holding that man requires special help and not merely general guidance from God to overcome original sin, that such help is offered freely to all men, that each man must of his own initiative accept or reject this special divine help, that the individual and not God takes the first step leading to his salvation, and that God's grace toward him is conditioned by his own attitude of acceptance or rejection

No, I believe that God takes the first step leading to salvation. And that grace is unconditionally offered whether the person accepts it or rejects it. Though the measure of grace may vary depending on God's foreknowledge (i.e. the Parable of the Talents).

But it is not 'work' in regard to working to earn salvation.

I am interested in how you substantiate this.
_________________________________

Re:

You believe we are not saved by WORKS where this means:

Any work excluding the WORK OF BELIEVING.




Again, I am interested in how you substantiate this.
_____________________

Easy.
Paul puts 'believing/trusting' on the other side of the inequality between 'works of the law' and 'believing'. (Even though both are something you 'do').

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. - Romans 4:4-5

From his above statement it's impossible to say that 'believing' is on the same side of 'works' in regard to what doesn't justify.
It's really that simple. It plainly says that.

You say “we do the believing (trusting) in response to that faith [from God]. You didn’t state that we might not believe even though God gave us faith and I think that is another VERY IMPORTANT YET MISSING aspect of your explanation. (I don’t want to put words in your mouth).

Some might not respond with believing/trusting to God's gracious gift of knowledge that the gospel really is true.
In fact, most won't.

Question: When God gives a person faith (noun) you only stated that persons respond by believing. Did you mean to say:

1) that all persons without exception respond by believing or

2) all persons without exception respond by believing or not believing?

#2 All persons without exception respond by believing or not believing. It's their choice.

3) Is it your contentions that those that believe are responsible to continue believing?

Yes.
And they continue to believe through the exact same gift of faith (knowing) upon which they first believed.

 

[jackrosie]

No, I believe that God takes the first step leading to salvation. And that grace is unconditionally offered whether the person accepts it or rejects it. Though the measure of grace may vary depending on God's foreknowledge (i.e. the Parable of the Talents).




Easy.
Paul puts 'believing/trusting' on the other side of the inequality between 'works of the law' and 'believing'. (Even though both are something you 'do').

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. - Romans 4:4-5

From his above statement it's impossible to say that 'believing' is on the same side of 'works' in regard to what doesn't justify.
It's really that simple. It plainly says that.



Some might not respond with believing/trusting to God's gracious gift of knowledge that the gospel really is true.
In fact, most won't.


#2 All persons without exception respond by believing or not believing. It's their choice.


Yes.
And they continue to believe through the exact same gift of faith (knowing) upon which they first believed.

I find that hard to believe..when the Holy Spirit testifies to your spirit....that he is God.....you cannot help but to believe..because the Lord is in your spirit...your spirit instantly recognises Him....

You are then a new creation in the Lord...a born again......he knew me before I was born.....

 

[Fastfredy0]

No, God gives us evidence and the ability to choose to live by faith. (and no, choosing is not work either). It is our faith in the power of the Blood that invites God into our hearts.

I agree that most people feel that: "God gives us evidence and the ability to choose to live by faith". (aside: I don't feel this way, not that that mean I am right)

Re: "no, choosing is not work either".
...Well, again, I point out that the dictionary definition of WORK is "an activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result". A second definition is "a task or tasks to be undertaken; something a person or thing has to do." Your stating that your faith, that does not come from God, contradicts the dictionary definition of WORK. Therefore, at a minimum you need to explain the apparent contradiction.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Apparently so.

Your contention that faith is work is not healthy spiritually.

This is a statement that lacks foundation. If I am wrong, the statement is true. If you am correct, the statement applies to you. Again, validate your response by showing how WORK as defined by the dictionary is not what you do to be saved in regard to FAITH.

 

[Judges1318]

I find that hard to believe..when the Holy Spirit testifies to your spirit....that he is God.....you cannot help but to believe..because the Lord is in your spirit...your spirit instantly recognises Him....

You are then a new creation in the Lord...a born again......he knew me before I was born.....

This illustrates the necessity to see that 'believing' is not just knowing with certainty that Jesus is the Christ (even the demons know that). Everyone who hears the testimony of the Holy Spirit about the gospel knows in that moment that the gospel really is true. From this point 'believing' involves choosing whether you're going to retain that knowledge as factual, or discard it and choose not to believe it. But either way, the reality of the gospel was revealed to both the one who chose to believe and the one who chose to reject it in willful unbelief.

 

[Judges1318]

This is a statement that lacks foundation. If I am wrong, the statement is true. If you am correct, the statement applies to you. Again, validate your response by showing how WORK as defined by the dictionary is not what you do to be saved in regard to FAITH.

The mistake you're making is defining work according to it's pure meaning in the dictionary, instead of defining it in regard to what justifies and what does not justify.

 

[Judges1318]

Re: "no, choosing is not work either".

I know you are quoting Oyster, but to save time (I'm at work, lol) I'll key off your post.

Choosing is not work, not in regard to whether or not it's something you 'do', but rather in regard to what justifies and what does not justify.

Accomplishing righteous works of the law cannot justify (make one righteous). Believing that Christ will make you righteous through the forgiveness of sin and the imparting of his righteousness does justify.

See? It's not about whether or not you yourself actually do something, anything, to be justified. It's about you trying yourself to be righteous vs. you not trying to be righteous but instead receiving righteousness as a free gift.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The mistake you're making is defining work according to it's pure meaning in the dictionary, instead of defining it in regard to what justifies and what does not justify.

The mistake you are making is not using the dictionary to define words. Without a common understanding of language and words we have even less reliable communication. The dictionary is authoritative.
If the people that write Bible translations do not use words as defined in the dictionary then these tokens (words) have unreliable meaning.

Dictionary: a book or electronic resource that lists the words of a language (typically in alphabetical order) and gives their meaning, or gives the equivalent words in a different language, often also providing information about pronunciation, origin, and usage.

 

[Judges1318]

The mistake you are making is not using the dictionary to define words. Without a common understanding of language and words we have even less reliable communication. The dictionary is authoritative.
If the people that write Bible translations do not use words as defined in the dictionary then these tokens (words) have unreliable meaning.

Dictionary: a book or electronic resource that lists the words of a language (typically in alphabetical order) and gives their meaning, or gives the equivalent words in a different language, often also providing information about pronunciation, origin, and usage.

And so we can completely ignore context and usage?
Of course not.

 

[jackrosie]

This illustrates the necessity to see that 'believing' is not just knowing with certainty that Jesus is the Christ (even the demons know that). Everyone who hears the testimony of the Holy Spirit about the gospel knows in that moment that the gospel really is true. From this point 'believing' involves choosing whether you're going to retain that knowledge as factual, or discard it and choose not to believe it. But either way, the reality of the gospel was revealed to both the one who chose to believe and the one who chose to reject it in willful unbelief.

Oh right.thats interesting....there was no way that I couldn’t believe,when he entered into my body then my spirit,I fell in Love with Lord...I was on honeymoon for yrs...but I’m at a much deeper level now....not like a new born...

I just find it hard that some don’t retain that knowledge in their heart.....I guess I will never know.....

 

[Reformyourself]

What a bunch of know-all’s 😜