Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[Absolutely]

Yes I believe my KJV bible just as its written below, "Caught Up" at the future "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ in the heavens.

1 THessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Amen.
You just authenticated the pretrib rapture.

Read your verse alongside rev 14.
Pay attention to "dead rise first"
Then explain to me h ok w you confuse that with the living raptured by Jesus on a cloud DURING THE GT.

See that????
Your doctrine has the dead rising AFTER the living gathered in rev 14.

Thread killer

 

[Absolutely]

The sealed believers are protected during the tribulation, as the verses below clearly show

"Only those without the seal of God" will be tormented, al Christians are sealed Eph 1:13, 4:30

Revelation 9:3-4KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

You reference only the 144k are sealed in their foreheads.

Then you attach verses thinking you show the church on earth protected from the wrath.

The church is in heaven. That is easily proven.

Trying to make that sealed concept apply is like saying Jesus nor paul knew what they are talking about.

You need the dead rising after the living,and noah and lot taken away AFTER those judgements.

Your deal is impossible.

 

[Yahshua]

You now claim there is a 2,000 year gap between Matthew 24:29 & 24:30 below?

Verse 21: Great Tribulation 70AD?

Verse 29: Immediately after tribulation sun, stars, moon?

2,000 year gap?

Verse 30 Jesus in the clouds returning?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There's no 2000-year gap between verses 29 and 30.

The great tribulation isn't a singular event ("boom") but a timeframe ("boom, boom, boom, boom, etc..."). In each gospel account, the prophecy uses either the word "time" or "days".

In other words, it's not read "The Great Tribulation", it's "A TIME/DAYS of great tribulation".

We've created an event (almost a doctrine) out of language that simply expresses a span of time. That time (i.e. those days) started with the destruction of the temple and has continued throughout history as history testifies to a span of atrocities that befell the Jews over and over and over since then until present day.

If those "days" weren't shortened no Jew would be saved. That's how bad things collectively were for them throughout the entire timeframe.

...then immediately after that TIME (i.e. those days), astronomical signs would occur.

Here's the Order in list form:

- (70AD) temple destroyed; time of terrible distress starts. verse 21

- That time of terrible distress for Jews spans (70AD - Present Day). "1,260 years" fits in this timeframe somehow

- immediately after that time, astronomical signs (Present Day). verse 29

- The messiah is next. Verse 30

-----

Recorded history literally has been proving this out.

 

[Truth7t7]

Amen.
You just authenticated the pretrib rapture.

Read your verse alongside rev 14.
Pay attention to "dead rise first"
Then explain to me h ok w you confuse that with the living raptured by Jesus on a cloud DURING THE GT.

See that????
Your doctrine has the dead rising AFTER the living gathered in rev 14.

Thread killer

The second coming of Jesus Christ is (Post Trib)

I didn't authenticate your false claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture.

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Truth7t7]

You reference only the 144k are sealed in their foreheads.

Then you attach verses thinking you show the church on earth protected from the wrath.

The church is in heaven. That is easily proven.

Trying to make that sealed concept apply is like saying Jesus nor paul knew what they are talking about.

You need the dead rising after the living,and noah and lot taken away AFTER those judgements.

Your deal is impossible.

The 144,000 are sealed and "Added" To the Church during the tribulation.

Your claim of the dead rising after the living is false.

 

[cv5]

How you figure that?
Pretrib is easy to defend.

Completely agree. On the other hand, Mid TRIB and post TRIB are very difficult to support.

 

[Truth7t7]

There's no 2000-year gap between verses 29 and 30.

The great tribulation isn't a singular event ("boom") but a timeframe ("boom, boom, boom, boom, etc..."). In each gospel account, the prophecy uses either the word "time" or "days".

In other words, it's not read "The Great Tribulation", it's "A TIME/DAYS of great tribulation".

We've created an event (almost a doctrine) out of language that simply expresses a span of time. That time (i.e. those days) started with the destruction of the temple and has continued throughout history as history testifies to a span of atrocities that befell the Jews over and over and over since then until present day.

If those "days" weren't shortened no Jew would be saved. That's how bad things collectively were for them throughout the entire timeframe.

...then immediately after that TIME (i.e. those days), astronomical signs would occur.

Here's the Order in list form:

- (70AD) temple destroyed; time of terrible distress starts. verse 21

- That time of terrible distress for Jews spans (70AD - Present Day). "1,260 years" fits in this timeframe somehow

- immediately after that time, astronomical signs (Present Day). verse 29

- The messiah is next. Verse 30

-----

Recorded history literally has been proving this out.

As I stated, you claim a (2,000 year gap)

Your created doctrine in the span of time above in red highlight is the (2,000 year gap) of a (symbolic) representation of a tribulation that started in 70AD, and continues to this day?

This gap is falsely used to justify a 70AD tribulation, with a future second coming.

Just like the dispy's 70th week of Daniel, floating around for 2,000+ years and waiting.

The tribulation described below isn't a continuous 2,000 years and waiting, sorry

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes I believe my KJV bible just as its written below, "Caught Up" at the future "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ in the heavens.

Here is a good example of what I mentioned earlier. By confusing the Rapture with the Second Coming, you are actually denying the Rapture.

No one is caught up at the Second Coming. Indeed, the saints and angels DESCEND from Heaven with Christ at that time.

Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

Behold, He cometh with clouds: "Clouds" is a metaphor for the white and shining saints and angels who surround Christ at His Second Coming. Literal clouds belong to the atmosphere, not to God's Heaven from where Christ descends (Rev 19). But since the saints and angels are all dressed in white and radiating light, they will appear as radiant clouds surrounding Christ.

and every eye shall see Him: The descent of Christ will be visible to every human being living on earth at that time. This is in contrast to the Rapture, when the unbelieving world will not even know what has happened. That is the time when the Divine Bridegroom (Christ) comes for His Bride (the Church) as noted in the parable of the Ten Virgins.

and they also which pierced Him: this is a reference to the unbelieving Jews, since they were the ones who caused the crucifixion and piercing of Christ. And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. (Zech 13:6) Following the Second Coming God will gather all the Jews from around the world and bring them to Israel. They will be confronted by Christ, and one-third of them will repent and believe on Him: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech 13:8,9)

and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him: The unbelieving and the ungodly right across the globe will know without the shadow of a doubt that Christ is coming as Judge to judge them and to execute His judgment at this time. As Paul says, Christ will come in flaming fire to destroy His enemies. Therefore they will weep, wail, and mourn, but they will not repent: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

As anyone can see, the Second Coming of Christ has absolutely nothing in common with the Resurrection/Rapture. Yet some continue to promote this fallacy, and deceive themselves and others.

 

[cv5]

As I stated, you claim a (2,000 year gap)

Your created doctrine in the span of time above in red highlight is the (2,000 year gap) of a (symbolic) representation of a tribulation that started in 70AD, and continues to this day?

This gap is falsely used to justify a 70AD tribulation, with a future second coming.

Just like the dispy's 70th week of Daniel, floating around for 2,000+ years and waiting.

2000 years of waiting. Waiting for what? Waiting for the fullness of the gentiles to come in of course. Not only do we have a gap we need a gap to fulfill all prophecy, as well as to reveal the mystery of the Church.

Just a reminder 70 A.D. has nothing to do with Daniels 70 weeks prophecy.

 

[cv5]

The 144,000 are sealed and "Added" To the Church during the tribulation.

Your claim of the dead rising after the living is false.

No. The 144,000 Israelites take over the responsibility of preaching now that the Church has been raptured it is no longer available for this task.

 

[Truth7t7]

Completely agree. On the other hand, Mid TRIB and post TRIB are very difficult to support.

Post-Trib is a biblical fact

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Truth7t7]

No. The 144,000 Israelites take over the responsibility of preaching now that the Church has been raptured it is no longer available for this task.

We will disagree.

There is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture, the Church will be present on earth during the future 3.5 year tribulation, divinely protected by God.

As stated the 144,000 are added to the church.

 

[Yahshua]

As I stated, you claim a (2,000 year gap)

Your created doctrine in the span of time above in red highlight is the (2,000 year gap) of a (symbolic) representation of a tribulation that started in 70AD, and continues to this day?

This gap is falsely used to justify a 70AD tribulation, with a future second coming.

Just like the dispy's 70th week of Daniel, floating around for 2,000+ years and waiting.

The tribulation described below isn't a continuous 2,000 years and waiting, sorry

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I don't know what you mean by symbolic. Do you know what all has happened to the Jews throughout the centuries since 70AD regarding terrible distress?

Do you believe they were just expelled from Jerusalem and then that's it? They just lived somewhere else for 2000 years?

 

[Truth7t7]

2000 years of waiting. Waiting for what? Waiting for the fullness of the gentiles to come in of course. Not only do we have a gap we need a gap to fulfill all prophecy, as well as to reveal the mystery of the Church.

Just a reminder 70 A.D. has nothing to do with Daniels 70 weeks prophecy.

Just a reminder, nobody claimed 70AD had anything to do with Daniels 70 weeks

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't know what you mean by symbolic. Do you know what all has happened to the Jews throughout the centuries since 70AD regarding terrible distress?

Do you believe they were just expelled from Jerusalem and then that's it? They just lived somewhere else for 2000 years?

You take a future literal event in a 3.5 year tribulation, and you (symbolize) it's fulfillment in Jews tribulation from 70AD to present.

Your 2,000 year let's skip and jump through the centuries tribulation, was invented to falsely justify 70AD fulfillment of Daniels Abomination seen in Matthew 24:15 and a future second coming.

Daniels Abomination, The Great Tribulation, and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven are "Future Events" Unfulfilled.

 

[cv5]

You take a future literal event in a 3.5 year tribulation, and you (symbolize) it's fulfillment in Jews tribulation from 70AD to present.

Your 2,000 year let's skip and jump through the centuries tribulation, was invented to falsely justify 70AD fulfillment of Daniels Abomination seen in Matthew 24:15 and a future second coming.

Daniels Abomination, the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ are "Future Events" unfulfilled.

You are pretty close with a lot of your eschatology. Unfortunately you are post trib and you deny the millennial reign.

 

[Truth7t7]

Here is a good example of what I mentioned earlier. By confusing the Rapture with the Second Coming, you are actually denying the Rapture.

No one is caught up at the Second Coming. Indeed, the saints and angels DESCEND from Heaven with Christ at that time.

Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

Behold, He cometh with clouds: "Clouds" is a metaphor for the white and shining saints and angels who surround Christ at His Second Coming. Literal clouds belong to the atmosphere, not to God's Heaven from where Christ descends (Rev 19). But since the saints and angels are all dressed in white and radiating light, they will appear as radiant clouds surrounding Christ.

and every eye shall see Him: The descent of Christ will be visible to every human being living on earth at that time. This is in contrast to the Rapture, when the unbelieving world will not even know what has happened. That is the time when the Divine Bridegroom (Christ) comes for His Bride (the Church) as noted in the parable of the Ten Virgins.

and they also which pierced Him: this is a reference to the unbelieving Jews, since they were the ones who caused the crucifixion and piercing of Christ. And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. (Zech 13:6) Following the Second Coming God will gather all the Jews from around the world and bring them to Israel. They will be confronted by Christ, and one-third of them will repent and believe on Him: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech 13:8,9)

and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him: The unbelieving and the ungodly right across the globe will know without the shadow of a doubt that Christ is coming as Judge to judge them and to execute His judgment at this time. As Paul says, Christ will come in flaming fire to destroy His enemies. Therefore they will weep, wail, and mourn, but they will not repent: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

As anyone can see, the Second Coming of Christ has absolutely nothing in common with the Resurrection/Rapture. Yet some continue to promote this fallacy, and deceive themselves and others.

Let's analyze (Dispensationalism's) claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture in 1 These 4:14-17, verses used without comparison.

We see below the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens and the resurrection of the believer in Jesus Christ.

God's word (CLEARLY TEACHES) that the resurrection takes place on the (LAST DAY) And yes this means (THE LAST DAY)

As Is Clearly Seen, Any Claim Of A (Pre-Trib) rapture is 100% false, This Is (THE LAST DAY)

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[Absolutely]

The second coming of Jesus Christ is (Post Trib)

I didn't authenticate your false claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture.

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Then You have Jesus falsely claiming the rapture (noah leaving) is after the flood and lot taken away after sodom is judged.

Nowhere in either instance does Jesus support your made up removal of the bride after the flood or fire judgements.

Jesus specifically destroyed your supposed post flood / fire removal.
He also said "pray that you are counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world "

You have no case and not one verse supporting a postrib rapture.
Not a single verse

 

[Absolutely]

We will disagree.

There is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture, the Church will be present on earth during the future 3.5 year tribulation, divinely protected by God.

As stated the 144,000 are added to the church.

Every point above is your conjecture.

You are following the wrong teachers.

Carrying one illogical thought on into the next one.
All conjecture without a single supporting verse

 

[Truth7t7]

You are pretty close with a lot of your eschatology. Unfortunately you are post trib and you deny the millennial reign.

Your correct, I'm post trib, no Millennium.

cv5 there will be a future command to build in Jerusalem to Messiah this starts the 70 weeks of Daniel, the 70th week ends when the future (Man of Sin/Antichrist) is revealed proclaiming to be God Messiah, as the 3.5 year tribulation starts.

The Two Witnesses in Rev 11 stand before the antichrist (day for day) bringing all plagues as seen in Revelation as often as they will.

The Church is present on earth as tge 144,000 are added, preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ divinely protected by God from these plagues, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt.

When the 6th vial is poured out in Rev 16:12 Satan is loosed from his prison into this tribulation to gather the world's nations to the final battle.

The two witnesses are killed, lie in the streets, as the world's armies are in Israel/Meggiddo, 3.5 days pass as the witnesses are called up to heaven, as the final hours of earths existence unfolds as Jesus returns to battle "Immediately after the tribulation" as the resurrection/catching up takes place, as the heavebns and earth are "Dissolved" by the Lords fire in judgement

Eternity begins in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, Judgement Complete