Not By Works

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EleventhHour

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DorothyMae said:
So the understanding of “he who endures the tribulation to the end will be saved” to you means he who physically survives the tribulation will be saved from physical death. Conversely, he who dies in the GT (because he refused the mark) will not be physically saved. Does anyone else see how this is saying nothing if not nonsense? If you died you didn’t survive and weren’t saved and if you survive you lived and so are saved??
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There is no conversely.

Wow how you twist it.

If you survive you are physically still alive .. there is not mention of the mark.. you are adding that in.
 
jackrosie

jackrosie

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DorothyMae said:
So the understanding of “he who endures the tribulation to the end will be saved” to you means he who physically survives the tribulation will be saved from physical death. Conversely, he who dies in the GT (because he refused the mark) will not be physically saved. Does anyone else see how this is saying nothing if not nonsense? If you died you didn’t survive and weren’t saved and if you survive you lived and so are saved??
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DorothyMae..can you answer this with a yes or no...are you alive in the Spirit?
 
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DorothyMae

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EleventhHour said:
If you do not embrace once saved and always saved then you are relying on SELF for salvation or to maintain salvation.
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Not at all. As I’ve said all along, YOU do not understand our position AT ALL!! This is not it.
Scripture is clear there is no "SELF" in salvation.

"and that not of yourselves"

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Ephesians 2:8
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Gifts can be lost through neglect. Jesus told a parable of a man given a gift to work for for the master and because he neglected it, the gift was taken away. He does take his Holy Spirit from some.
 
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DorothyMae

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EleventhHour said:
There is no conversely.

Wow how you twist it.

If you survive you are physically still alive .. there is not mention of the mark.. you are adding that in.
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If you survive you’ll be saved and if you die, you won’t be. That is the silliest twisting of a scripture I ever heard. I mean what kind of promise is that??? If you don’t die, you’ll survive??
 
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Guojing

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DorothyMae said:
So the understanding of “he who endures the tribulation to the end will be saved” to you means he who physically survives the tribulation will be saved from physical death. Conversely, he who dies in the GT (because he refused the mark) will not be physically saved. Does anyone else see how this is saying nothing if not nonsense? If you died you didn’t survive and weren’t saved and if you survive you lived and so are saved??
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The way they insist OSAS applies even in the Tribulation, requires them to stand fast on the doctrine that a believer will not take the mark.
 
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DorothyMae

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“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

It’s possible to believe in vain and it’s up to us according to this passage.
 
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DorothyMae

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Guojing said:
The way they insist OSAS applies even in the Tribulation, requires them to stand fast on the doctrine that a believer will not take the mark.
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Why did the Bible give warning then to believers? Nonbelievers aren’t addressed as they don’t read the Bible.
 
oyster67

oyster67

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DorothyMae said:
Rosemary, I find t hard to believe that just because I believe salvation can be lost in time, you think God needs to grant us mercy and we’re horribly deceived. I don’t think God needs to grant you mercy and you’re doomed.

If a believer thinks they are heaven bound no matter what they do but still follows Jesus their whole life, great!

If a believer thinks they are heaven bound no matter what they do and starts to live a life of sin, and they are wrong, very bad.

If a believer thinks that while they are saved they need to
continue in the faith their whole life but we’re wrong, no problem.

If a believer thinks that while they are saved they need to continue in the faith but are right, good thing.

The only bad outcome is for the OSAS believer who was wrong and neglected their salvation until it didn’t exist anymore.
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Well said!
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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DorothyMae said:
But none of the verses say that at all. Peter fell away and bitterly repented. Some fall away and don’t.

Jesus never promised he’s praying so you don’t fall away. I know you believe it. Why didn’t he tell ALL of them that he was praying for them equally too?

Let me ask you another question. If all of them knew they would go to heaven no matter if they deny him before others or fail to endure, why were there martyrs? Why endure that horrible suffering when you can simply do whatever your tormentors want as you know you’re saved no matter what? (Jesus actually says he who endures will he saved, but we’ll ignore that warning for now.)
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Lafftur said:
DorothyMae, I will answer you tomorrow......it’s midnight where I am and I got to work tomorrow....

By the way, Martyrs are incredibly special to God.....NOT EVERYONE gets a Martyrs crown.....:love:

Good night, God loves you! :sleep:
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Hi DorothyMae, I'm back.......:love:(y)

Let me just establish this........I am a completely rock solid believer in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) and I do not judge, condemn or make accusations against others that are not. However, I will contend with them but, not with anger....with love.

So, let's you and I have a peaceful conversation.....:love:(y)

You said:

Jesus never promised he’s praying so you don’t fall away. I know you believe it. Why didn’t he tell ALL of them that he was praying for them equally too?

Jesus did pray for Peter because Jesus knew Peter's faith would be shaken to it's very core when Jesus died and be absent for 3 days. Satan would be testing the faith of Peter.

Luke 22:31-34 King James Version (KJV)
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Jesus also prays for our faith to not fail - Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. The Gift of Salvation He has given us is secure IN HIM (Christ). Jesus knew Peter would deny Him 3 times yet, Jesus prayed for Peter.

Jesus prays for ALL that are His and is ABLE to save us to the uttermost.......we will NOT lose our salvation.

Hebrews 7:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus knows our faith is to be tested and He prays for all that are His.

You said:

If all of them knew they would go to heaven no matter if they deny him before others or fail to endure, why were there martyrs? Why endure that horrible suffering when you can simply do whatever your tormentors want as you know you’re saved no matter what? (Jesus actually says he who endures will he saved, but we’ll ignore that warning for now.)

Anyone that does NOT endure simply are NEVER His (Jesus). Even though Peter denied Jesus 3 times, Peter still endured and belonged to Jesus because Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would NOT FAIL. Our salvation is IN CHRIST ALONE - HE IS ABLE TO KEEP US, even when we deny Him.

Jesus is making intercession for us and will lose NONE that belong to Him.

You asked:

why were there martyrs? Why endure that horrible suffering when you can simply do whatever your tormentors want as you know you’re saved no matter what?

God's plan and purposes......I personally believe martyrs are hand picked by God - God chooses who He wants to give a Martyrs' Crown to, we don't. The prophets have mostly been martyrs. No body really wants to suffer, even Jesus prayed that the cup would be taken away from Him yet, He surrendered to the Father's Will which is what all of us eventually do in our "Garden of Gethsemane"

We deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Jesus. This can ONLY be done in the power of the Holy Spirit, NOT in our own strength.

Are you trying to keep yourself saved in your own strength? :unsure:
 
oyster67

oyster67

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jackrosie said:
Magneta.......Jesus knows everyone he knows the heart of everyone,......am I right in saying that he knows everyone,but not all that he knows are born again?
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God knows everyone in the omniscient sense (He knows everything about everything). God knows only those who abide in Him till the end in the sense of intimate relationship knowing.
 
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EleventhHour

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DorothyMae said:
Not at all. As I’ve said all along, YOU do not understand our position AT ALL!! This is not it.

Gifts can be lost through neglect. Jesus told a parable of a man given a gift to work for for the master and because he neglected it, the gift was taken away. He does take his Holy Spirit from some.
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Wrong,

A gift is not taken away then it would not be a gift but a loan.
Do you think the words in scripture are not exact.

The parable is not about losing salvation once again reading into the text
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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oyster67 said:
Amen! With or without us, as individuals, He and His bride shall prevail. Our faith is never in vain! PTL! Hold fast to it. It is precious indeed.
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Oh, oyster67, I do love you dearly but, disagree that it's up to me to hold on to my faith......Jesus is making intercession for me and keeping me IN HIM - rooted and grounded.

I believe He is doing the same for you and DorothyMae. I know many seem to infer that if you don't believe in OSAS, then you're probably not saved or even belong to Christ but, I don't believe that.

Having mixed up theology won't cause me or anyone to lose their salvation. It just means we all have a lot to learn! The Holy Spirit will teach us God's Word. :love:(y)
 
oyster67

oyster67

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EleventhHour said:
What is most apparent to me by your posts is you refute what have not even comprehended
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Are you sure that you comprehend conditional salvation correctly?

Do you think we live in daily fear of losing our salvation?

Do you think we believe in salvation by works?

Do you think that we do not have blessed assurance and peace and joy that only the Holy Spirit can give?

Being saved is like marriage. Fidelity is required.
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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oyster67 said:
Are you sure that you comprehend conditional salvation correctly?

Do you think we live in daily fear of losing our salvation?

Do you think we believe in salvation by works?

Do you think that we do not have blessed assurance and peace and joy that only the Holy Spirit can give?

Being saved is like marriage. Fidelity is required.
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Well, I'm thinking "being saved" is more like being "born again" as a baby, I am FOREVER the child of my Father and Mother......no matter how much I say I'm not their child.......:unsure:

Now, having a relationship with God is like marriage.......we're not to commit spiritual adultery and run after other gods.
 
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EleventhHour

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oyster67 said:
Are you sure that you comprehend conditional salvation correctly?

Do you think we live in daily fear of losing our salvation?

Do you think we believe in salvation by works?

Do you think that we do not have blessed assurance and peace and joy that only the Holy Spirit can give?

Being saved is like marriage. Fidelity is required.
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Your "fidelity" makes the arrangement recompense for the gift.

That is contrary to it being a gift

Also Paul makes it clear we do not put God in our debt.
 
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