Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians
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Not even remotely correct.
Matt 13:39
and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
That's why you should pay close attention when Bible-believing Christians show you the errors of your beliefs. You too seem to show an aversion to the truth. Thus far you have not accepted a single truth that was presented.
Not accepted because they were not understood.
John 8:43
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.
I'm seriously surprised you are even saying this, given the multitudinous amount of times I've posted on the subject, providing Scriptures, and to which you yourself have made posts to the very same effect/point, where I've put (like this):
--Luke 21:12-24a is the 70ad section of the Olivet Discourse [ALL of the rest of the OD being far-future, and involve His Second Coming to the earth, yet future];
--IN that "70ad section" of the Olivet Discourse [vv.12-24a (Lk21), with 24b following on from that point], v.23 specifically states [of the 70ad events] "and WRATH upon this people";
--this agrees completely with Matthew 22:7[-8], in which v.7 states (speaking of the "70ad events"), "But when the king heard thereof, he was WROTH: and he sent forth his armies [see Lk21:20 "Jerusalem compassed with armies"; and Lk19:41-44 [said to Jerusalem] "thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, ..."] that which Jesus SAID on Palm Sunday (the very day that the "69 Weeks" [total] were concluded)], and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."
[this happened SEQUENTIALLY just as the Daniel 9:24-26a/b passage has SEQUENTIALLY LAID OUT... (there remains more to it, yet future ['far-future'], also sequential [progressing further on] in that passage)];
...Verse 8 in Matt22 [FOLLOWING the v.7 "70ad events"] goes on to tell what happens AFTER the 70ad events, "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" which I've stated I believe refers to what He LATER gave to record [in 95ad], "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3 for example] things which must come to pass [<comp. 1:19c & 4:1 re: the "FUTURE" aspects] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not what will transpire over the course of some 2000 yrs, but the "far-future" aspect of the Book, speaking of the 7-yr trib [like Dan9:27a/b/c [v.27a "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"]; and other passages I listed that correlate TO this])]
Now, the "70ad events" were not the entire extent of the "wrath"... it was only the "70ad events section" of the "wrath" in that context... I'll try to come back and explain this part more, when I get more free time to type it all out, but this post alone is long enough already... I just wanted to point out the small part in which we had, at least in SOME measure, had somewhat of the SAME view of this, that the Olivet Discourse is NOT speaking of the 70ad events ONLY [tho vv.12-24 ARE!], but the other parts of it are speaking of the "far-future" aspects of what the rest of the Olivet Discourse speaks to, and which correlates with other passages (that also speak to "wrath" issues, for that far-future, limited, specific time period that LEADS UP TO His Second Coming to the earth)
Of course. Reincarnation is totally false. And what you have quoted corresponds to Romans 5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
All human beings are subject to death. BUT THAT DOES NOT PRECLUDE the Rapture of the saints, which is clearly taught in Scripture and pre-figured in the rapture of Enoch. The Rapture means that living saints are transformed, glorified and taken up to Heaven supernaturally, just like Enoch.
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. (Gen 5:23,24)
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5)
The case of Elijah is slightly different, since God sent a heavenly chariot with heavenly horses to take Elijah to Heaven.
And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into Heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal... And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold,there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into Heaven. (2 Kings 2:1,11)
Heb 11:13 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
ALL THESE DIED. Did you know Enoch is on that list. Do you believe this?
Firstly, whatever it is you are refuting, it is a straw man. I never said anything to the contrary.
Second, anyone on this board can read Matthew 13 for themselves and clearly read that the parables of the weeds and the net are Jesus conveying the same message using two different word pictures.
In the "examples" Jesus supplied about "Noah" and "Lot" I've mentioned before that these are set in contexts about His Second Coming to the earth (ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come [etc]" passages are speaking about His Second Coming to the earth [to judge and to reign], FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50; Matt24:27,37,39,44 and parallels; Lk12:35,36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (as I've mentioned)... and many more I won't list here (who even examines these?? lol)...];
In view of this (and the other details I pointed out that will be true of that point-in-time, like Lk17:27,29 "and destroyed them ALL" [which is not what happens following "our Rapture," btw--I've supplied details on that/those passages]),
...in view of that (at top paragraph),
...consider the following:
[quoting Commentary excerpt at BibleHub, by Gaebelein on Hebrews 11]
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This we believe that the worlds were framed by the Word of God. Abel is next mentioned. The truth of salvation is seen in his case. Sin and death had come in. By faith, trusting in the promise, acknowledging his true condition, he brought a more excellent sacrifice than Cain. He approached God with that more excellent sacrifice. He obtained witness that he was righteous. He was justified by faith. And Abel himself who died by the hand of his brother is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.
Enoch was translated by faith that he should not see death. In Abel the truth of righteousness by faith is illustrated. Enoch, walking with God, believing God and prophesying (Jude 1:14-15) went to heaven without passing through death. The power of death was destroyed in his case; the power of that life he possessed was manifested in his translation. How blessedly Abel and Enoch show forth that by faith righteousness and life are bestowed upon those who believe. The great sacrifice, typified by Abel’s more excellent sacrifice and also by his death, has conquered death, Through death Christ has destroyed him who had the power of death (Hebrews 2:14).
Enoch is a type of the Church. He prophesied of coming judgment (the deluge) but did not pass through that judgment. Even so the true Church, when the Lord comes, will be taken from earth to glory without dying, before tribulation, wrath and judgment come upon this age [note: I would say, "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" which is distinct], which ends like the days of Noah. Enoch also received testimony before he was translated that he pleased God, for he walked in faith in His presence and in His fellowship. This is the walk into which all God’s people are called and which faith and the power of the indwelling spirit make possible. Without faith (a faith which clings close to Him, trusts in His word and is obedient) it is impossible to please Him.
Hebrews 11:7 speaks of Noah and his faith. In this verse we find mentioned the ground of faith (warned of God); the realm of faith (things not seen); the exercise of faith (he feared); the work of faith (he prepared an ark); the result of faith (he saved his house); the testimony of faith (he condemned the world) and the reward of faith (heir to righteousness). It is the most remarkable verse in the whole chapter. Enoch was caught up to heaven before the deluge came. Noah was warned of the unseen judgment to come (which Enoch had warned would come) and was roused with godly fear. He is a type of the godly remnant of Jews at the end of this present age [meaning, following "our Rapture"], who will pass through tribulation and judgment, after the true Church has left the earth, and having passed through the judgment, as Noah did, will inherit the earth. Noah represents the faith and exercise of this Jewish remnant, which will be saved out of [see Jer30:7 about "Jacob" who will experience "the time of Jacob's trouble"] the judgments at the close of this age [note: again, I would call it more specifically-accurate to say, "the end [singular] of the age [singular]," which is distinct].
--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hebrews 11, Source: BibleHub
[end quoting; bold, underline and bracketed inserts mine; parentheses original]
____________
= ) Hope that helps you see my perspective (didn't feel like typing out such things entirely by myself, ATM, so placed this here, for it is the point I would be making, on this Subject.
Heb 11:13 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
ALL THESE DIED -->[...FINISH THE *ENTIRE* SENTENCE]. Did you know Enoch is on that list. Do you believe this?
I've seen some suggest (and I agree) that where it says "ALL THESE," that it is speaking SPECIFICALLY about those IN THAT SECTION (meaning, namely, Abraham and his descendants
rather than the entire listing that came before THESE specific ones in this particular SECTION of the text)
Of course people who don’t believe every word of the Bible perfect will twist it to fit their VERSION of the Bible. In the meantime, you’re building your own false religion based on what you want it to be.I've seen some suggest (and I agree) that where it says "ALL THESE," that it is speaking SPECIFICALLY about those IN THAT SECTION (meaning, namely, Abraham and his descendants
Besides that, it is appointed to man once to die, you guys don’t pay much attention to that verse either. And this why you trick people into believing a false gospel, YOUR gospel.
And there’s also Joshua saying he’s about to go the way of all the earth, meaning he’s going to die. There are probably two or three hard core proofs in the Bible stating that ALL MEN DIE.
I am more-or-less replying to you and cv5 both here. I don't allegorize either Enoch or Lot. I don't see either as a "type". Lot and Enoch are men.
The point is, Lot was delivered from God's wrath--by God taking Lot out of SODOM. Not off the planet. Enoch I suppose was taken off the planet, though I'm not aware of any particular wrath he was spared in the process.
In the same way, it is possible that Christians might be spared God's wrath by: a) doing what God says, and b) God taking Christians off the grid, or out of the Beast's clutches. But not necessarily off the planet. The Woman and the Dragon (Rev. 12) seems to strongly indicate the Church gets sheltered somewhere, though it does not say where (other than the "wilderness"). Lot had to take very specific steps commanded by God in order to be spared--which indeed, his wife did not obey. A pre-trib rapture not only spares Christians from experiencing any tribulation--but it absolves them from having to obey anything, either. They just get blink-and-you're-gone.
If you have Biblical grounds for a pre-trib rapture, okay, but "Christians are spared God's wrath, therefore Rapture has to be pre-trib" simply does not constitute a complete argument.
No, actually, it's about "FINISHING the sentence" so as to ascertain the full thought being conveyed (and that's a matter of "proper grammar" and "reading in context" as opposed to pulling out a small phrase, and viewing it apart from its context, thus risking *wrenching* the entire meaning being conveyed... in any given context).
You can believe as you wish...
The point is, Lot was delivered from God's wrath--by God taking Lot out of SODOM. Not off the planet.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, "Lot" is not "Enoch" recall. I never said "Lot" is a picture of the RAPTURE. No. Enoch was.
Lot is more a picture of what those WHO FIND THEMSELVES *IN* the trib (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") b/c they had not come to faith prior to that point, and that is: what Lk21:36 states (re: those ppl [who will heed it]), "Watch ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, in order that ye may have strength TO FLEE OUT-OF [G1628] all [each and every one of] these things coming to pass [on the earth, during the trib years], and TO STAND BEFORE [in a judicial sense] the SONE OF MAN [His "Second Coming to the earth" designation; to judge and to reign]"
This ^ being is direct CONTRAST those those OTHER ones who will find themselves in the trib, who Scripture states "and *they* [that is, certain ones in particular] SHALL NOT ESCAPE [G1628 -- SAME WORD as in Lk21:36's instructing those who will HEED IT! in the trib]".
These are just a couple of the passages showing a CONTRAST between those who will find themselves IN the trib (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"--neither of these verses are speaking OF "our Rapture" but what FOLLOWS it, when you examine all these CONTEXTS)
The deluge. He was taken out completely prior to the flood judgment.
He prophesied. As the 7th from Adam.
"The woman" in Rev12 is not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (compare with Micah 5:3 [not speaking of Jesus' birth like v.2 is!], where verse 3 [speaking of the same "remnant" that Rev12:17 speaks of!], says, "3 Therefore he will give them up UNTIL the time that she which travaileth [identifying her] hath brought forth: THEN the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel."
No offense, but ... I just got done showing how "ENOCH" is a type of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" that will be "CAUGHT UP" *before* judgment falls... And yet, Enoch doesn't look like what you are describing (as Christians who "hold to pre-trib"--perhaps lazy, careless "sort-of-maybe-kinda-saints-if-and-when-they-take-a-notion-to-maybe-think-of-Christ-occasionally"... = P Totally dumb, that you are depicting "pre-tribbers" to be looking like such, all because they are "pre-tribbers," you know!!
I've heard ridiculous things, and I must say this ranks somewhere up there among them. ) Scripture does not convey that "saints" generally are spared time periods with wrath (Lk21:23 "wrath" existing on the earth, for example, was in 70ad, as I showed--no one was "raptured" prior to that)...
but Scripture IS saying that a particular body of believers ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" -- ALL those "saved" IN THIS PRESENT AGE [singular]") has specifically NOT been "appointed UNTO WRATH"... and that, in that passage and in his 2nd epistle to them [and us, by extension of that SAME 'ONE BODY'], he tells us the precise SEQUENCE of how things will be goin down... esp where he says that "the DOTL" [a period of time (not merely 24-hrs in duration) of JUDGMENTS followed by a period of time (also not 24-hrs) of BLESSINGS] will NOT be present, if not shall have come ONE THING *FIRST* (the definite event [indicated by 'the'] which he had already spoken of previously in that context!)
gotta run...
Yep "End Of The World" right in the good ole KJV, 409 years and going strong!I believe it was you (forgive me if I'm mistaken on this) who, not too many posts ago, used one of the passages to say that it is saying "the end OF THE WORLD". The problem with that is, that Jesus (and His disciples later) was saying "the end [singular] OF THE AGE [singular]" Matt13:30,39,49-50, for example, which passage followed what He had just said to them about "[re: age-singular] the one TO COME/COMING" in Matthew 12:32 - "...neither in this age [singular], nor in the age COMING [SINGULAR]". "Age [singular]" is attached with earth-time and -history. His disciples understood Him accurately (regarding this) as their proper "expectation" (the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom--though they were unaware of its TIMING). And it IS their proper expectation, as Acts 3:21 states, "whom heaven must receive UNTIL the timeS of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD SPAKE BY the mouths of His holy prophets from the age" [i.e. the OT prophets concerning this issue
[and, by the way, the passages speaking of "one shall be taken, the other LEFT" is what will take place at the time of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (not a Rapture context, here), where just like in Noah's day, the ones "taken" are "taken away in judgment," and the ones "left" will be "left to enter the earthly MK age" in their mortal bodies, JUST LIKE IN NOAH'S DAY
Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Good grief man! Hebrews 11:5 that reiterates the fact that Enoch did NOT die.
"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God."
Please stop bungling these Scriptures it is very exasperating.
No no no. The end of the age. AGE.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-3.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/165.htm
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.
"does not constitute a complete argument"???!!!
Are you even paying attention to this thread?
What part of THESE ALL DIED do you not understand? Seriously did you not know that this was part of that passage? Everybody mentioned in the previous verse DIED.
Heb 11:13 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.