Not By Works

EleventhHour · Jun 14, 2020

I have not leveled this accusation at the moment.

I simply stated that a doctrine that allows a person to continue in sin without any eternal consequences would be a desirable, ear soothing, seducing, doctrine.

Telling people to take heed to doctrine and not to sin unless they fail to enter heaven is not desirable, seducing, nor ear soothing.

It's terrifying.

Which is why Jesus told you to:

Luke 12:5
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Do you even know that Jesus died on the cross to pay the debt of sin?

Micaiah-imla · Jun 14, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Yes.

But he did not die on the cross so that I could rack up more sin debt.

jackrosie · Jun 14, 2020

The one thing I will not tolerate is people who dictate what I should or shouldn’t say.
Also who I agree with.....it is none of their business.
In the past I have been accused of supporting false doctrine.....no I haven’t.
I will talk to anyone who doesn’t believe in the OSAS.....and put my belief to them on why I believe that I am osas.....that is not supporting their belief......it is discussing in a civil manner and I will continue to do so.
I can not stand “DICTATORS “....

EleventhHour · Jun 14, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

You will never, ever make it heaven by your works ever, you will never be sinless.

dcontroversal · Jun 14, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

We have had this dance....JESUS was born, lived and died under the LAW which ratified the New Covenant....HIS WORDS must be viewed in this LIGHT....and.....THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES even though SALVATION IS SECURE.....such as...

a. CHASTENING
b. LOSS of reward
c. Maybe premature death
d. Disease
e. SAVED SO AS BY FIRE with nothing to show because the works were crispy fried

ALL EVIDENCED by scripture......THE SPIRIT born again FROM ABOVE BY INCORRUPTIBLE SEED DOES NOT SIN and is ETERNALLY SECURE IN CHRIST!

Micaiah-imla · Jun 14, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Yes I will.

If I continue in the faith grounded and settled.

Colossians 1:22-23
...to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled,

dcontroversal · Jun 14, 2020

GUILT by association is taught in scripture......and to OPPOSE those that hold to the truth while embracing those that DO NOT teach the truth = guilt by association!

jackrosie · Jun 14, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

He died on the cross so that you could be saved and forgiven of your sin.
Born again does not mean that you are racking up more sin ..your sins have been forgiven...you then start walking in the spirit...you are right with God when you are born again....did you know that?

dcontroversal · Jun 14, 2020

jackrosie said:

See, I have no problem agreeing with truth!! This was true!

Micaiah-imla · Jun 14, 2020

dcontroversal said:

I'd like to address the other error that OSAS leads one to; the ridiculous doctrine of rewards for those who manage not to sin.

Every OSAS adherent (in my estimation) believes that no one will ever be sinless.

If this is true, what is the point of this "loss of rewards" doctrine?

Under your belief no one will get any rewards since all continue to sin to varying degrees anyway.

EleventhHour · Jun 14, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

This is not about gaining salvation.

Micaiah-imla · Jun 14, 2020

EleventhHour said:

For by grace are you saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8)

If you continue in the faith grounded and settled (Colossians 1:23).

Therefore being justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

So, if you do not continue in the faith, you lose the promises in these passages.

EleventhHour · Jun 14, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

We have already dealt with this some time ago.

They are reconciled. verse 21
Line 23 is an exhoration to walk in the faith, steady and unmoved because there were always outside influences affecting the church... this is not to keep salvation but is addressing practical sanctification

Blue_Of_Lake · Jun 14, 2020

jackrosie said:

it's personal beliefs that stand in the way of believing other people, but we do not know their hearts.

jackrosie · Jun 14, 2020

Blue_Of_Lake said:

Hi @Blue OF Lake...God testified to my spirit that I was his child...so yes it was personal...God knows my heart....he also knows my confusion at times...

No we don’t know their hearts only God does.

dcontroversal · Jun 14, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Not to mention JESUS begins, finishes and COMPLETES THE WORK OF FAITH IN US.....they cannot GRASP THAT GOD does the saving, keeping and KEEPS that which we have committed unto him against that day!

DorothyMae · Jun 15, 2020

Sagart said:

For 1,500 years, the church was unanimous in teaching in the doctrine of conditional security. Moreover, down to this day, the large majority of Bible scholars still teach the doctrine of conditional security, but no one has taught what this post falsely accuses them of teaching. What we have in this thread is extreme ignorance of the Bible, calling the principles of the doctrine of salvation a lie, and hundreds of shameful and hateful insults cast upon Christians who are advocating for the teachings of Christ, His apostles, the apostolic and post apostolic fathers of the Church, and the large majority of Christians today.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.

The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.

Because of the severity of the Greek word translated “impossible” in verse 6, some very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now well established and its warning is stern.

Christians who fight tooth and nail to detract from the warning of this passage shall have the blood upon their hands of those who lose their salvation because they were told the warning did not apply to them and they got careless as a result.

Great informative post. Those debating will not accept these scriptures but it’s not for them I post. It is for those considering leaving the theology that tells them they have a part such as obey or be diligent or repent and running to the you need to do nothin theology. These can see the differences in the posts we write They jeer and belittle and insist we’re from the devil and we plead and present pages of scripture. (They have a handful of isolated passages....always the same few and always removed from the context.)

DorothyMae · Jun 15, 2020

Duskey said:

As long as they don’t stop believing.

DorothyMae · Jun 15, 2020

jackrosie said:

You’re really sweet my dear. Oddly enough, the more I respond with straight but gentle words, the deeper and stronger His peace and hence ability to do so becomes. Respond in the opposite spirit although it’s grinding at first becomes easier. Their anger doesn’t enter me. It’s a character building exercise.

DorothyMae · Jun 15, 2020

VCO said:

So you argument is they did but it’s not recorded??? You know that’s a logical fallacy, right? You also realize it can be then successfully argued that they preached you must endure to the end of your life to be saved or you will perish with the unbelievers, right? As soon as we can both submit our evidence based on what we assume they said, then all positions stand on the same ground.

Not By Works

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