Goal or Gateway ? Empowering of the Holy Spirit

[biker]

This is not true. You could me not show one Single time that baptism with the Holy Spirit and as Sign speaking in tongues was practised before 1900 and also was taught in the New Testament to other believers.

There is an actual list from Polycarp (John's Disciple) to the Church Fathers, all the way to 1900 Azusa where Speaking in Tongues has been active for 2,000 years continually. If you desire, I can post it when I return from my business trip in about 6 hours or so.

 

[Godsgirl83]

You aren’t aware that signs and wonders for today is an important doctrine held by bethel church?

the purpose behind bethel church is to lead astray.
The signs and wonders practiced there are NOT the same that Jesus spoke about.
I'm not going to get into the whole Bethel thing here in this thread, as that would be taking away from the purpose of this thread, but will direct you to what I posted about it here:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-seeker-sensitive-movement.192872/#post-4286572

Also, keep in mind
Aaron in obedience to God threw down Moses's rod and it became a serpent.
Pharaoh had his sorcerers copy and do the same........
Only one was done in the true power of the True Holy God.....

 

[Guojing]

the purpose behind bethel church is to lead astray.
The signs and wonders practiced there are NOT the same that Jesus spoke about.
I'm not going to get into the whole Bethel thing here in this thread, as that would be taking away from the purpose of this thread, but will direct you to what I posted about it here:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-seeker-sensitive-movement.192872/#post-4286572

Also, keep in mind
Aaron in obedience to God threw down Moses's rod and it became a serpent.
Pharaoh had his sorcerers copy and do the same........
Only one was done in the true power of the True Holy God.....

Signs and wonders in the OT were always for Israel, ever since it began in Exodus 4.

The objective of signs and wonders, for all these cases, is to authenticate that person, who performs them, as sent by God.

Moses was one, Elijah and Elisha were another.

Finally Jesus, as the greatest prophet of Israel (Deut 18:15), was given the most signs and wonders among these people. Jesus gave that power to his believers so that they can continue to preach to Israel in Acts.

Definitely the miracle healings performed now are a far cry from that, Bethel or otherwise, for good reason. Israel has rejected their Messiah and is now an enemy with God (Romans 11).

 

[presidente]

I normally just read the words literally, especially in an online forum where you cannot see the facial expressions.

So the question is, if signs and wonders are still in existent today, why is it that covid-19 is still present after so many months?

Wouldn't a perfect testimony of signs for the unbelievers would be the church going around "healing all with Covid-19", aka Acts 10:38?

Various diseases and ailments that were around when Christ was healing on the earth still existed after the ascension. Peter and Paul healed lame people by the power of God at work through them that does not prove that Christ did not heal.

 

[Guojing]

Various diseases and ailments that were around when Christ was healing on the earth still existed after the ascension. Peter and Paul healed lame people by the power of God at work through them that does not prove that Christ did not heal.

No one is saying God does not heal today.

But when one claims he believes in signs and wonders for today, they fail to understand what that term really meant during the Old Testament, as well as the 4 Gospels.

 

[presidente]

Signs and wonders in the OT were always for Israel, ever since it began in Exodus 4.

The objective of signs and wonders, for all these cases, is to authenticate that person, who performs them, as sent by God.

Moses was one, Elijah and Elisha were another.

Finally Jesus, as the greatest prophet of Israel (Deut 18:15), was given the most signs and wonders among these people. Jesus gave that power to his believers so that they can continue to preach to Israel in Acts.

Definitely the miracle healings performed now are a far cry from that, Bethel or otherwise, for good reason. Israel has rejected their Messiah and is now an enemy with God (Romans 11).

I do not care for this misleading hermeneutics'-- picking one function of donething--miracled in this case-- and treating it as the sole purpose.

The miracles of the apostles bite witness to Christ and the message they preached. There are still men preaching their message. It does not follow that miracles must have ceased.

I Corinthians 12:28 indicated that some who are not apostles do miracles also.

The feeding of the 5000 fed hungry people, so it does not stand to reason that the ONLY purpose was to bear witness to Christ. The resurrection of the widow of Nain'd don returned her son to her. She got the don she loved back and had someone who could provide for her. Areas was able to walk. Aren't these infused with purpose?

I Corinthians 12 lists the working of miracles among the gifts given 'to profiy withal'. Christ also said 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye shall not believe.' Don't you see any purpose for miracles in these scriptures?

 

[notuptome]

I do not care for this misleading hermeneutics'-- picking one function of donething--miracled in this case-- and treating it as the sole purpose.

The miracles of the apostles bite witness to Christ and the message they preached. There are still men preaching their message. It does not follow that miracles must have ceased.

I Corinthians 12:28 indicated that some who are not apostles do miracles also.

The feeding of the 5000 fed hungry people, so it does not stand to reason that the ONLY purpose was to bear witness to Christ. The resurrection of the widow of Nain'd don returned her son to her. She got the don she loved back and had someone who could provide for her. Areas was able to walk. Aren't these infused with purpose?

I Corinthians 12 lists the working of miracles among the gifts given 'to profiy withal'. Christ also said 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye shall not believe.' Don't you see any purpose for miracles in these scriptures?

I see a rebuke of their unbelief. Is that what you seek?

God has chosen His people, the saved, His word and His Holy Spirit to be the witness to the lost of the world.

Signs as an emblem of authority have been replaced with the word of God and the testimony of the saints. Jesus gave Peter as a representative of the church the keys of the gospel not gifts to be used in the building of the church.

For the case of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

I see a rebuke of their unbelief. Is that what you seek?

God has chosen His people, the saved, His word and His Holy Spirit to be the witness to the lost of the world.

Signs as an emblem of authority have been replaced with the word of God and the testimony of the saints. Jesus gave Peter as a representative of the church the keys of the gospel not gifts to be used in the building of the church.

many of us here look to scripture for doctrine. We do not believe in just making up an idea and treating that as doctrine. The Bible does not teach that the word of God has replaced signs as an emblem if authority in the church. I do not find that line of reasoning in scripture.

Peter said to use spiritual gifts to minister to one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

 

[presidente]

No one is saying God does not heal today.

But when one claims he believes in signs and wonders for today, they fail to understand what that term really meant during the Old Testament, as well as the 4 Gospels.

Signs/miracles include casting out demons in Jedus'name, according to Christ. Do you believe Christ has left the church powerless when it comes to demons?

 

[Guojing]

Signs/miracles include casting out demons in Jedus'name, according to Christ. Do you believe Christ has left the church powerless when it comes to demons?

Have you realized that, even during the OT, signs and wonders were not happening all the time?

I have marked out 2 periods where they were present in the OT.

Moses-Joshua
Elijah-Elisha

That was why Gideon could tell the Angel of the Lord in Judges 6:13

"Pardon me, my lord," Gideon replied, "but if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, 'Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian."

Signs and wonders were rare even in Israel during the OT.

 

[notuptome]

Signs/miracles include casting out demons in Jedus'name, according to Christ. Do you believe Christ has left the church powerless when it comes to demons?

The Catholic church claims to cast out demons do you suggest they are doing what you claim Jesus left for believers to do?

Jesus only seeks vessels that are emptied of self through which He will minister the gospel.

If you had power would you lord it over the lost or believers?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Have you realized that, even during the OT, signs and wonders were not happening all the time?

I have marked out 2 periods where they were present in the OT.

Moses-Joshua
Elijah-Elisha

That was why Gideon could tell the Angel of the Lord in Judges 6:13

"Pardon me, my lord," Gideon replied, "but if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, 'Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian."

Signs and wonders were rare even in Israel during the OT.

The Psalms presents a lack of wonders as a dad thing. Gideon asked 'Where are the wonders...' I imagine the status of Vaal in the background as he asked the question. Maybe he did not make the connection. But the Lord had him tear it down.

We live in a different age, the last days in which the Spirit is being poured out upon all flesh.

 

[lenna]

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Is Jesus speaking here about a goal or gateway?

What is the purpose here for receiving the empowerment of the Holy Spirit known the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus said to be witnesses. What are we witnessing to?

we are witnessing: To the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ from the DEAD!!!
​

As Jesus said to the Apostles, you shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you. Acts 1:8

He did not say you will be empowered to be My witness after you are saved. I don't know what is going to happen to people who are so against the Holy Spirit.

 

[CS1]

I am not denying that the Holy Spirit is working till today. And also I got an spiritual gift since I turned to Christ.
Your examples did nothing say, that it was taught, that speaking in tongues is a proof that you are empowered with the Holy Spirit.
And this also not taught in the scripture.
If so I would believe this teaching. Creating doctrines out of what is written in the bible, can be an different to that what is taught in the bible to the believers.
You are taking verses from acts and maby John and Mix it with 1.Cor. 12-14 which Fit to it and create an doctrine which never was taught to other believers.
You are wondering that I dont believe this?
Your theme is Goal ore Gateway? Maby it has a Purpose? To show that God is the only God and he is greater then the Spirits and powers of this world. And not for to proof who has among the believers the greatest faith and superpower.
If you claim this, then you have to proof it.

Do you even hear what you are saying? "Creating doctrines out of what is written in the bible,".

It is not creating doctrine( teaching) it is using what the word of God shows us and tells us. I don't know if you are aware but it was Jesus who said this. Mark16. it was Paul who taught on the gifts of the Spirit in 1cor 12-14 chapters. Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, why is that hard for you to understand? If you disagree with what is known as the initial evidence that a person(s) has been Baptized in the Holy Spirit Ok. But the Book of Acts provides many accounts of those who were baptized in the Holy Spirit and The Evidence was they spoke in Tongues or Prophesied as the Holy Spirit gave them the ability Acts chapter 2 testifies to this truth.

You can't have it both ways guy.

You have been provided in the word of God why one believes it is for today. Then you ask to provide you with the historical context of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit which was given and active after the Bible was made. Then You ask for proof via Media that God is doing what HE said HE would do. Are you serious? You continue to move the goal post each time. You are a negative person I get it. The idea of the gateway is just an illustration to show contrast to a goal.

The message in my Thread is not tongues That is your interjection. The Thread is about the resurrection of Jesus Christ and when Jesus said you shall be my witnesses what are we witnessing to and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to effectively witnesses.

Acts 4:33.

 

[CS1]

I know people which prayed for healing and people got healed without that this Person was " empowered" by the Spirit according your defination.
And how many of these groups where sects and cults, like the montanism from around 156- till around 500 ? Ore the irvingians, ore the Mormons?
Does God is doing miracles today is no doubt to me!! Special in Mission ministry!

You can lie and attack all you want guys, I think you don't have the ability to understand the word of God. I don't have a definition. And the Historical context of the Holy Spirit and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with cults and Mormons.

You are a hypocrite. You say show me in the word of God and you will believe. The word of God was given now you want to talk about cults and Mormons. You have a serious issue guy. Just leave my thread alone ok because you are not very edifying and clearly you are just a hater.

 

[CS1]

There is an actual list from Polycarp (John's Disciple) to the Church Fathers, all the way to 1900 Azusa where Speaking in Tongues has been active for 2,000 years continually. If you desire, I can post it when I return from my business trip in about 6 hours or so.

it has been provided to him a thread done some time ago his goal post moving was seen them too. Type in Baptism in the Holy Spirit and you will see everything he has asked was answered Biblically then he as others became mockers and scoffers.

 

[CS1]

This is not true. You could me not show one Single time that baptism with the Holy Spirit and as Sign speaking in tongues was practised before 1900 and also was taught in the New Testament to other believers.

Acts chapter 2 is one. And Tongues are not practiced, that is your false narrative.

 

[CS1]

No one is saying God does not heal today.

But when one claims he believes in signs and wonders for today, they fail to understand what that term really meant during the Old Testament, as well as the 4 Gospels.

what is failed is the surrendering to your unbiblical application of the word of God.

 

[lenna]

The crowd came together again, so that they could not even eat. And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, “He is beside himself.” And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.” And he called them to him, and said to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man; then indeed he may plunder his house.

“Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” — for they had said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Mark 3: 20-30

 

[Blain]

If you enjoy that, then I will recommend you the book called "The Fifth agreement" by Don Miguel Ruiz, his cinema analogy would fit that perfectly.

I will just quote a brief part of it here.

Wow that was spot on especially about how my mom acts around everyone and how she really is and how she perceives me but that isn't me. Sadly my family is unaware that I am able to see and know how they percieve me I have always been able to look at things with perspective and because of my nature my disability my issues with needing help doing things they see me as a weak moronic incapable child who needs protecting and cannot do anything on his own my mom even came home drunk one night and said I was the weakest person she knows.

But their wrong they don't know or understand me they never have, I may not have a very high view of myself and I may struggle with depression and low self esteem and yes maybe I need more help doing things and learn much slower than others but I am by no means weak and I am not some incapable moronic child. Is this book free? and if so where can I get it? I would buy it but I only get 40 dollars a week to myself so it might be hard to save up for that but now I really want to read this book