Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[KJV1611]

Jesus was saying two things here... He said:

--"I AM the Resurrection" to address the part "he that believeth in Me, even if he should DIE, yet shall he live"; and

--"and [I AM] the LIFE" to address the part "he that LIVETH and believeth in Me, SHALL NEVER DIE"



[then, recall that those saying "the resurrection IS PAST" is not a good thing to be doing, thus "overthrowing the faith of some" and "have erred from the truth"--... "who have gone astray concerning the truth, asserting the resurrection already to have taken place; and they are overthrowing the faith of some." 2Tim2:18; "Resurrection" meaning "to stand again [on the earth]"--that is, IN a BODY / BODILY]

The resurrection hasn't past, it's taking place every time a believer passes from this life to the next. Hymenaeus and Philetus error was that they thought the resurrection of the Old Testament saints was the ENTIRE RESURRECTION PROCESS. They were smart enough to recognize that it was the resurrection but they failed to realize the same thing that you guys fail to realize... the resurrection is an ongoing process that happens to every believer JUST PRIOR to the death of this body. We are CAUGHT UP together in the same place as the Old Testament saints (The NEW HEAVEN), and so shall we ALL be with the Lord forever.

You guys words are the same "canker" (cancer) as Hymenaeus and Philetus but you guys are even worse because you won't even acknowledge that the FIRST RESURRECTION has even started.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [FUTURE TENSE], but we shall all be changed,
All believers will not die like the Old Tesatament saints who died and went to the OLD HEAVEN, but believers that are alive and remain AFTER Christ prepared a place for us (The New Heaven), we shall all be changed.

Let me camp on just this singular point for a minute (coz I need to close down for awhile):

--Verse 51, "we shall not all SLEEP [G2837 - koimēthēsometha - FUTURE tense]"... is not speaking of "them"/OT saints [PAST tense], but specifically of "we [/'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY']" saints "in this present age [singular]" (Paul is disclosing 'A MYSTERY'--something not yet having been disclosed, and TO/FOR/ABOUT-->) i.e. those who have come to faith SINCE/AFTER the Cross

(...and up till "our Rapture" point in time... [more ppl will "come to faith FOLLOWING that point in time, IN/DURING the trib yrs, but this "WE" is not speaking to those, as this is referring to "our Rapture" (singular event) point in time, in the chronology]).

 

[Absolutely]

You guys omit our verses.
You just omitted our verses to come to that conclusion

Is that like the "Last Day" don't mean "Last Day"

"End of the world", don't mean "End of the world"

"Last Trump" Don't mean "Last Trump"

Again,leave off the heartbeat of endtimes and FOCUS on clich'es

Last trump
Layahe
McDonald
After
Trump
One coming
Dispensation

I know postrib doctrine
It is 90% extra biblical

 

[KJV1611]

You are fixated on Hebrews 11:13.

oikétérion: a habitation
https://biblehub.com/greek/3613.htm

This particular term used twice also supports the fallen angels theory.

You act like Hebrews 11:13 is the ONLY verse in the bible that says it appointed to man once to DIE. Or "I go the way of all the earth"... well the way of all the earth except Enoch and Elijah and that group of SUPER SAINTS that get raptured outta here. SMH

You're mortal body is going to die just like Enochs, Elijah's, Abraham's, Isaac's, David's, Joseph, Mary's and every other person that has or will exist on this earth.

1Ki_2:2 I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man;

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

well the way of all the earth except Enoch and Elijah and that group of SUPER SAINTS that get raptured outta here. SMH

For the record, and to be clear (in case it hasn't been), the "Rapture" is NOT about "that group of SUPER SAINTS," for Paul explicitly stated (and TO the CORINTHIANS even [see 1Cor3:1-4 "are ye not CARNAL?"(!) yes they were! --same letter!]) that "we shall ALL BE changed" ("at the last trump" point in time)

 

[Absolutely]

For the record, and to be clear (in case it hasn't been), the "Rapture" is NOT about "that group of SUPER SAINTS," for Paul explicitly stated (and TO the CORINTHIANS even [see 1Cor3:1-4 "are ye not CARNAL?"(!) yes they were! --same letter!]) that "we shall ALL BE changed" ("at the last trump" point in time)

No the foolish virgins stay and get martyred.

"But pray that you be counted WORTHY to escape...."

Those carnal believers are seen in heaven as the innumerable number.
And their dirty robes needed washing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

For the record, and to be clear (in case it hasn't been), the "Rapture" is NOT about "that group of SUPER SAINTS," for Paul explicitly stated (and TO the CORINTHIANS even [see 1Cor3:1-4 "are ye not CARNAL?"(!) yes they were! --same letter!]) that "we shall ALL BE changed" ("at the last trump" point in time)

And to this point ^ (a post I made some time back)... BUT *NOTE*... the "sleep" word in THIS text is a DIFFERENT "sleep" word from that of what Paul had put in the previous chpt, at 4:13,14,15 where THAT "sleep[G2837]" word meant "DIE/DIED" (but THIS "sleep [G2518]" [below] word DOES NOT):

[quoting that post]


1 Thessalonians 5:6-10 [blb] - [explanation in brackets--note how the SAME Grk words are in vv.6 and 10]

6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others,
but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.
7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.
8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love,
and the helmet, the hope of salvation [an eschatalogical salvation, per context],
9 because God has not destined us for wrath,
but for obtaining salvation through [/by means of] our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [same Greek word as in verse 6! G1127 - grēgorōmen]
OR [whether] we might sleep [same Greek word as in verse 6! G2518 - katheudōmen--NOT meaning 'death' here as the OTHER Greek word does in the previous chpt!],
we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'-with/'IDENTIFICATION'-with] Him.

[THIS "WITH [G4862 - syn - 'UNION-with']" word being distinct from the OTHER "with [G3326 - meta - accompanying]" word that is used of the "10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]" who will "go in WITH [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (i.e. the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth)]

[end quoting]

 

[KJV1611]

For the record, and to be clear (in case it hasn't been), the "Rapture" is NOT about "that group of SUPER SAINTS," for Paul explicitly stated (and TO the CORINTHIANS even [see 1Cor3:1-4 "are ye not CARNAL?"(!) yes they were! --same letter!]) that "we shall ALL BE changed" ("at the last trump" point in time)

Paul never taught anything about a rapture, he taught about the resurrection of dead, both the literal dead and those dead in their sins and trespasses.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No the foolish virgins stay and get martyred.

I believe (and have shown why in past posts) that the "LAMPS LIT" passages have to do with Israel AFTER/FOLLOWING "our Rapture" when they light the lamps "IN THE NIGHT" (i.e. "DARK"/"DARKNESS" aka the TRIB YRS part OF "the DOTL" time period) for the "NIGHT WATCHES"--and corresponds to the "msg" that WILL be being preached THEN:

--Matt24:14[26:13] (compare with Rev7:9 esp)

"But pray that you be counted WORTHY to escape...."

I've shown in a past post of this thread, how I believe this is NOT a "rapture" passage, but their instruction IN/DURING and FOR the trib years ("...[actively] FLEE OUT OF all [EACH AND EVERY ONE of] these things coming [on the earth, DURING the trib yrs], and to STAND BEFORE [in a judicial sense] the SON OF MAN [His 'Second Coming to the earth' designation, 'to judge and to reign']"... and this is CONTRASTED with those (ALSO in/during the trib) who will NOT come to faith, therein, "and *they* [specific ones] SHALL NOT ESCAPE [same word as in Lk21:36--by contrast]"

Those carnal believers are seen in heaven as the innumerable number.

No, I do not believe they are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (those "saved" in this PRESENT AGE [SINGULAR]") but those who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and are seen to be coming out of "the GREAT tribulation [i.e. 2nd HALF of it]"

And their dirty robes needed washing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Paul never taught anything about a rapture, he taught about the resurrection of dead, both the literal dead and those dead in their sins and trespasses.

[the bold ^ ] is in the kjv as "CAUGHT UP"

...in the Greek as " harpagēsometha /harpazo - ἁρπαγησόμεθα" (G726)

...in the Latin (in the 400s ad) as "rapiemur / rapir" (where we get our present-day word)


It ^ means "SNATCH" or "CAUGHT AWAY / CAUGHT UP" (and the context tells WHERE)

... but "resurrection" means "to stand again [on the earth]" (bodily--like Jesus did ).


They are DISTINCT concepts.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Absolute nonsense. Paul doesn't say anything remotely close to "to be apart from the body for a time". In fact he says the exact OPPOSITE of that.

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed [THE 'CLOTHED UPON' thing he JUST SPOKE of] we shall not be found naked.

Jesus said (when on the Cross) "into thy hands I commend my spirit" and having said that, "He breathed His last".
His body died. It was buried in the sepulchre. Three days later, "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth]" (bodily).

But His spirit had immediately gone to the Father, upon His DEATH. Not to the grave (like His body did), nor elsewhere.

You're view puts a believer in a temporary state of NAKEDNESS standing before God when we die. You seriously can't believe that's true.

In the 2Cor5 context, "naked/UNclothed" speaks to THE BODY (upon the DEATH of the believer), that is, being APART FROM the body (Paul puts it like, "ABSENT FROM the body").

Not any kind of "sin" type of issue, as might be referred to in a DIFFERENT context.

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus said (when on the Cross) "into thy hands I commend my spirit" and having said that, "He breathed His last". His body died. It was buried in the sepulchre. Three days later, "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth]".

But His spirit had immediately gone to the Father, upon His DEATH. Not to the grave, nor elsewhere.

And the Old Testament saints were the same, they were spirits in Abraham's bosom UNTIL Christ came and prepared a place for them and us. The Old Testament saints could not receive their inheritance which includes a glorified eternal body and entry into the NEW HEAVENS, UNTIL Christ came. They aren't still in the OLD HEAVEN waiting for the "rapture" so they can finally get their glorified bodies and enter into the NEW HEAVENS, they are there now. Why would we who are alive and remain PREVENT them from receiving THEIR inheritance? That's a serious question, why would they wait?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And the Old Testament saints were the same, they were spirits in Abraham's bosom UNTIL Christ came and prepared a place for them and us. The Old Testament saints could not receive their inheritance which includes a glorified eternal body and entry into the NEW HEAVENS, UNTIL Christ came. They aren't still in the OLD HEAVEN waiting for the "rapture" so they can finally get their glorified bodies and enter into the NEW HEAVENS, they are there now.

Why would we who are alive and remain PREVENT them from receiving THEIR inheritance? That's a serious question, why would they wait?

Again, the word "PREVENT" is a 15th Century way of saying the word "PRECEDE - 'to go/come BEFORE'"...

so Paul is saying to them, don't worry about your loved ones who've already died, they are not going to "miss out"... and also says "the dead in Christ shall rise [that is, be "resurrected='to stand again'" on the earth] FIRST, THEN [epeita ('ONLY THEN')] we which are ALIVE and remain unto..." will be "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER [at the SAME TIME *they* are also 'caught up']" ...(this is the "harpazo" event... distinct from the 'resurrection/'to stand again [on the earth]' thing)... and that is, "IN THE AIR" (to the meeting of the Lord, there, IN THE AIR).

We're not "preventing" them from receiving it, we are not PRECEDING their receiving it, we are receiving it TOGETHER *WITH THEM* at the SAME PRECISE MOMENT, coz the CONTEXT is speaking specifically to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ONE BODY... and "caught up" AS ONE [not like the manner of gathering in the Isaiah 27:12-13/Matt24:29-31 context, but DISTINCT from it]).

 

[KJV1611]

Again, the word "PREVENT" is a 15th Century way of saying the word "PRECEDE - 'to go/come BEFORE'"...

so Paul is saying to them, don't worry about your loved ones who've already died, they are not going to "miss out"... and also says "the dead in Christ shall rise [that is, be "resurrected='to stand again'" on the earth] FIRST, THEN [epeita ('ONLY THEN')] we which are ALIVE and remain unto..." will be "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER [at the SAME TIME *they* are also 'caught up']" ...(this is the "harpazo" event... distinct from the 'resurrection/'to stand again [on the earth]' thing)... and that is, "IN THE AIR" (to the meeting of the Lord, there, IN THE AIR).

Our saved loved ones DON'T DIE, they are translated just like Enoch just prior to the death of this body. TDW Jesus said that a believer will never die, just like Enoch never SAW or experienced death, but Enochs earthly body did die. Explain that, how did Enoch die but yet he never SAW death?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Our saved loved ones DON'T DIE, they are translated just like Enoch just prior to the death of this body. TDW Jesus said that a believer will never die,

Jesus ALSO said:

"25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; the one believing in Me, even if he should die, he will live."

The problem is, you do not believe Him.

just like Enoch never SAW or experienced death, but Enochs earthly body did die. Explain that, how did Enoch die but yet he never SAW death?

Our saved loved ones DON'T DIE,

I guess you don't believe Paul was his spokesperson, then... when he said "WE shall NOT *ALL* DIE [FUTURE TENSE]"

(and then in that very passage goes on to show EACH of these PARTS--the ones that DO DIE/ARE DEAD ['THIS CORRUPTIBLE'] and the ones that will STILL BE ALIVE ['THIS MORTAL']-- at the "last trump" point in time)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[...] just like Enoch never SAW or experienced death, but Enochs earthly body did die. Explain that, how did Enoch die but yet he never SAW death?

Consider the following:

Luke 2 - [same words in bold that are in Hebrews 11:5, but slightly differing context] -

21 And when eight days to circumcise Him were fulfilled, then His name was called Jesus, which He had been called by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.

22 And when the days of their purification were fulfilled according to the Law of Moses, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present to the Lord 23 (as it has been written in the Law of the Lord: “Every male opening a womb shall be called holy to the Lord”), 24 and to offer a sacrifice, according to that having been said in the Law of the Lord, “A pair of turtle doves or two young pigeons.”

The Prophecy of Simeon

25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon. And this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it was divinely revealed to him by the Holy Spirit not to see [G3708] death [G2288] before that he should see the Lord’s Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple. And in the time when the parents were bringing in the child Jesus, the thing they were doing for Him according to that having become customary by the Law, 28 then he received Him into the arms, and blessed God, and said:

29 “Now Lord, You dismiss Your servant in peace,

according to Your word.

30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation,

31 which You have prepared before the face of all the peoples,

32 a light for revelation of the Gentiles,

and glory of Your people Israel.”



[after that point, at some point, Simeon "saw death" (i.e. "faced death" as in "experienced death")]

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus ALSO said:

"25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; the one believing in Me, even if he should die, he will live."

The problem is, you do not believe Him.

No I don't believe the Jesus of that bible, he contradicts his own self. I do believe the Jesus of my bible who said "though he WERE DEAD" past tense. not a future death. Your bible version contradicts itself by saying in one sentence, he who believes in Jesus will never die and then in another sentence he says if you do die then you'll live. In the KJV "though he were dead" is talking about the OT saints, they were dead.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

I guess you don't believe Paul was his spokesperson, then... when he said "WE shall NOT *ALL* DIE [FUTURE TENSE]"

(and then in that very passage goes on to show EACH of these PARTS--the ones that DO DIE/ARE DEAD ['THIS CORRUPTIBLE'] and the ones that will STILL BE ALIVE ['THIS MORTAL']-- at the "last trump" point in time)

Yes I agree with Paul, we shall not all die, none of us believers nor the believers of Old Testament times have ever died. You are conflating the death of the body that ALWAYS DIES with the believer being with that body at the time of death. Both Jesus and Paul call both of those scenarios DEATH.

 

[KJV1611]

Consider the following:

Luke 2 - [same words in bold that are in Hebrews 11:5, but slightly differing context] -

21 And when eight days to circumcise Him were fulfilled, then His name was called Jesus, which He had been called by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.

22 And when the days of their purification were fulfilled according to the Law of Moses, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present to the Lord 23 (as it has been written in the Law of the Lord: “Every male opening a womb shall be called holy to the Lord”), 24 and to offer a sacrifice, according to that having been said in the Law of the Lord, “A pair of turtle doves or two young pigeons.”

The Prophecy of Simeon

25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon. And this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it was divinely revealed to him by the Holy Spirit not to see [G3708] death [G2288] before that he should see the Lord’s Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple. And in the time when the parents were bringing in the child Jesus, the thing they were doing for Him according to that having become customary by the Law, 28 then he received Him into the arms, and blessed God, and said:

29 “Now Lord, You dismiss Your servant in peace,

according to Your word.

30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation,

31 which You have prepared before the face of all the peoples,

32 a light for revelation of the Gentiles,

and glory of Your people Israel.”



[after that point, at some point, Simeon "saw death" (i.e. "faced death" as in "experienced death")]

If Simeon was snatched out his body 10 microseconds before he died in a camel accident, would Simeon see or experience death?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If Simeon was snatched out his body 10 microseconds before he died in a camel accident, would Simeon see or experience death?

... except he said that it was REVEALED to him by the Spirit that he should not see death BEFORE he should see the Lord's Christ.

So that didn't occur till afterward/after he saw the Lord's Christ (at some point).

 

[KJV1611]

... except he said that it was REVEALED to him by the Spirit that he should not see death BEFORE he should see the Lord's Christ.

So that didn't occur till afterward/after he saw the Lord's Christ (at some point).

Does that verse say Simeon saw death? It does not. But I like the way you're coming back with stuff. In all seriousness TDW I appreciate your dialogue and patients shown to me. It is the glory of God to CONCEAL a thing and the riches of kings to seek it out. God is very very very clever at concealing things. It only requires ONE THING to find the concealed things.... believe every word of the bible EXACTLY as written.