Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[TheDivineWatermark]

No I don't believe the Jesus of that bible, he contradicts his own self. I do believe the Jesus of my bible who said "though he WERE DEAD" past tense. not a future death. Your bible version contradicts itself by saying in one sentence, he who believes in Jesus will never die and then in another sentence he says if you do die then you'll live. In the KJV "though he were dead" is talking about the OT saints, they were dead.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

The phrase in bold ^ is in the "Subjunctive" mood. This is how I understand the Subjunctive Mood:

[quoting a Greek grammar source]

Subjunctive Mood
The subjunctive mood indicates probability or objective possibility. The action of the verb will possibly happen, depending on certain objective factors or circumstances. It is oftentimes used in conditional statements (i.e. 'If...then...' clauses) or in purpose clauses. However if the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.

For example: "Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true heart in full assurance of faith." Heb 10:23

"In order that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known through the church..." Eph 3:10

[end quoting]


See again the verse, and the Greek stuff that corresponds, at this link, here:

https://biblehub.com/text/john/11-25.htm

Again,


2579 [e]κἂν
kan even if Adv599 [e] ἀποθάνῃ
apothanē he should die, V-ASA-3S2198 [e] ζήσεται, [note: 'V-ASA' means "Verb-Aorist Subjunctive Active]
zēsetai he will live; V-FIM-3S

Yes I agree with Paul, we shall not all die, none of us believers nor the believers of Old Testament times have ever died. You are conflating the death of the body that ALWAYS DIES with the believer being with that body at the time of death. Both Jesus and Paul call both of those scenarios DEATH.

Except, Paul in 1Cor15:51-54 is speaking of both those of us who will have DIED (before that point) *AND* those who will NOT have died but are still MORTAL (at that point--the point in time BEING DISCLOSED in that text, as a "MYSTERY" that had not yet been disclosed prior to Paul being tasked with disclosing it [via the Spirit, of course ]).

And that CONTEXT is speaking to/for/about (specifically) the "WE" of that verse 51! and the "THIS [G5100 - tis ' A CERTAIN ONE'] ____" of vv.53-54! (that is, the SPECIFIC/PARTICULAR/CERTAIN one, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" either who have "DIED ['THIS CORRUPTIBLE']" and who are STILL-LIVING/ALIVE ['THIS MORTAL']"... at the time-event being spoken of, in this context).

Paul was not given the task of disclosing to US (or the Corinthian church) that which pertained to the OT saints' death/deaths, in this context (but the Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence] "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," which is the "WE" and the "THIS [G5100]" in this context ("Behold, I SHEW YOU a mystery"--that he/Paul was tasked with DISCLOSING to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS [Christ's] BODY"--ALL those "saved" IN THIS PRESENT AGE [SINGULAR], to whom the RAPTURE *SOLELY* pertains... [NOT to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT: CORRECTING... for the word "THIS" - (should read) G3778 houtos, hauté, touto "THIS"


[not "G5100 - tis"! as I had put (getting sleepy here! LOL)... so please, in your mind, change the places I put the wrong Grk word for "THIS" in the above post/posts. THANKS! ]


https://biblehub.com/greek/3778.htm

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Does that verse say Simeon saw death? It does not. But I like the way you're coming back with stuff.

Well (as to the bold ^ ), this is why I underlined the further part of the passage, where Simeon (AFTER seeing the Lord's Christ... [recall the word, "that he should not see death BEFORE that he should see the Lord's Christ), then proceeded to say,

29 “Now Lord, You dismiss [*G630] Your servant in peace,

according to Your word.

30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation, [...] [i.e. he indeed saw Jesus!]


* - G630 - apoluo / apolyeis - "From apo and luo; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, [...]"

--"you now dismiss [/let die - G630]..."

... which in the kjv is put like "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart [G630 ('let die')] in peace, according to thy word" (i.e. JUST AS HE HAD SAID )

In all seriousness TDW I appreciate your dialogue and patients shown to me.

No problem. It has been my pleasure to discuss this with you.

It is the glory of God to CONCEAL a thing and the riches of kings to seek it out. God is very very very clever at concealing things. It only requires ONE THING to find the concealed things.... believe every word of the bible EXACTLY as written.

This, I always endeavor to do (and to point out, too. = ) )

 

[KJV1611]

The phrase in bold ^ is in the "Subjunctive" mood. This is how I understand the Subjunctive Mood:

[quoting a Greek grammar source]

Subjunctive Mood
The subjunctive mood indicates probability or objective possibility. The action of the verb will possibly happen, depending on certain objective factors or circumstances. It is oftentimes used in conditional statements (i.e. 'If...then...' clauses) or in purpose clauses. However if the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.

For example: "Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true heart in full assurance of faith." Heb 10:23

"In order that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known through the church..." Eph 3:10

[end quoting]


See again the verse, and the Greek stuff that corresponds, at this link, here:

https://biblehub.com/text/john/11-25.htm

Again,


2579 [e]κἂν
kan even if Adv599 [e] ἀποθάνῃ
apothanē he should die, V-ASA-3S2198 [e] ζήσεται, [note: 'V-ASA' means "Verb-Aorist Subjunctive Active]
zēsetai he will live; V-FIM-3S




Except, Paul in 1Cor15:51-54 is speaking of both those of us who will have DIED (before that point) *AND* those who will NOT have died but are still MORTAL (at that point--the point in time BEING DISCLOSED in that text, as a "MYSTERY" that had not yet been disclosed prior to Paul being tasked with disclosing it [via the Spirit, of course ]).

And that CONTEXT is speaking to/for/about (specifically) the "WE" of that verse 51! and the "THIS [G5100 - tis ' A CERTAIN ONE'] ____" of vv.53-54! (that is, the SPECIFIC/PARTICULAR/CERTAIN one, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" either who have "DIED ['THIS CORRUPTIBLE']" and who are STILL-LIVING/ALIVE ['THIS MORTAL']"... at the time-event being spoken of, in this context).

Paul was not given the task of disclosing to US (or the Corinthian church) that which pertained to the OT saints' death/deaths, in this context (but the Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence] "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," which is the "WE" and the "THIS [G5100]" in this context ("Behold, I SHEW YOU a mystery"--that he/Paul was tasked with DISCLOSING to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS [Christ's] BODY"--ALL those "saved" IN THIS PRESENT AGE [SINGULAR], to whom the RAPTURE *SOLELY* pertains... [NOT to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods])

Why not just let the bible say what it says? You're analyzing words so that you can make them fit your way. That's like tacking an exacto knife and trimming puzzle pieces to make them fit where you want them to fit. You're not going to reproduce the picture that way. It will no longer be the puzzle manufacturers image, it will be your own personalized image.

God doesn't work that way. He put STOP SIGNS up to prevent us from going the wrong direction. "It is appointed to man once to die" is a stop sign to the rapture. You guys not only ignore the stop sign, in one place, you ignore it in multiple places.

For example you guys say that not only is it NOT appointed to man to die once, but you have one group of people not dying at all and then you have another group of people who were raised from the dead with Christ and then dying again.... you guys have them dying TWICE.

And apparently you don't accept that the Old Testaments saints were the CHURCH to. There is no such thing as a New Testament church, the church has been here since Adam.

I have enjoyed this conversation with of all of you because when I first started this conversation is about 85% sure that the rapture was a heresy but now, I'm 100% sure that it is. And I now I have moved the theory that believers are translated just prior to death from theory to doctrine.

I'm probably going to start a thread on the New Heavens before long and I would like it if you would participate. Just tone the brackets down a little, it makes my head hurt.

 

[KJV1611]

Well (as to the bold ^ ), this is why I underlined the further part of the passage, where Simeon (AFTER seeing the Lord's Christ... [recall the word, "that he should not see death BEFORE that he should see the Lord's Christ), then proceeded to say,

29 “Now Lord, You dismiss [*G630] Your servant in peace,

according to Your word.

30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation, [...] [i.e. he indeed saw Jesus!]


* - G630 - apoluo / apolyeis - "From apo and luo; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, [...]"

--"you now dismiss [/let die - G630]..."

... which in the kjv is put like "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart [G630 ('let die')] in peace, according to thy word" (i.e. JUST AS HE HAD SAID )



No problem. It has been my pleasure to discuss this with you.




This, I always endeavor to do (and to point out, too. = ) )

One way God conceals things is that he says thing like ""Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart [G630 ('let die')] in peace, according to thy word".

Strong's concordance told you that depart means "let die" but the KJV didn't say that. Depart means to leave by any means including the snatching away just prior to the death of this mortal body.

 

[Truth7t7]

Last Day means the last day Jesus spent in hell aka the THIRD DAY.
The end of world comes when the FLESH is CRUCIFIED. When you are born you are OF THE WORLD, when you get saved, you're no longer in the world, the world ended for you but you are still IN the world.

Think about this, when the Old Testament saints died, they went to the OLD HEAVEN, Abraham's bosom. Then when they were raised with Christ, they went to the NEW HEAVEN with Christ. So apply that to "the end of the word", because the end of the world happened when the NEW HEAVEN and the NEW EARTH were brought in.

You deny a future coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens.

I view the cults in higher esteem, you disregard this basic biblical truth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

One way God conceals things is that he says thing like ""Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart [G630 ('let die')] in peace, according to thy word".
Strong's concordance told you that depart means "let die" but the KJV didn't say that. Depart means to leave by any means including the snatching away just prior to the death of this mortal body.

Okay, but one of the ways we can figure out what a word means is by looking at ALL the other places where that SAME WORD [G630] is used... (68x total):

https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_630.htm


And if that exercise doesn't help clarify too much, one must look at its own context and sort out what things he's saying within the context... that he was informed he wouldn't see death BEFORE he would see the Lord's Christ. Once he saw the Lord's Christ, he was "released [G630]"... (released to what? Die, in this case!... which was the Subject being covered in this context, see . Not "released [G630]" in the sense that Barabbas was "released [G630]" and not "released [G630]" in the sense that Timothy was "released [G630]"... but still "G630'd!" in a way that FITS THIS context and WHAT it was actually TALKING about here, see )

Depart means to leave by any means including the snatching away just prior to the death of this mortal body.

If Paul, per his CONTEXT, had been speaking of the death of INDIVIDUAL believers, you could convince me of what you are saying.

However, he was NOT speaking of that, and we can know this by the OTHER words and grammar in said text, which I've endeavored to point out to you repeatedly, but which words and grammar you are entirely disregarding...

 

[Truth7t7]

As for the Resurrection, I believe this is a step, either forward or back depending on the individual, in the evolution of the whole human race "..some to eternal life and some to eternal shame" and that it happens as described in the bible "in the twinkling of an eye", i.e. at (pretty well) the same time for all.

I disagree with your symbolic allegory of the future resurrection, this will be a literal event for all that have died at the second coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[KJV1611]

You deny a future coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens.

I view the cults in higher esteem, you disregard this basic biblical truth.

Where did you find the last day in the bible means the last day in the history of planet earth?

 

[Truth7t7]

Where did you find the last day in the bible means the last day in the history of planet earth?

The Future "Literal" Last Day!

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[KJV1611]

Okay, but one of the ways we can figure out what a word means is by looking at ALL the other places where that SAME WORD [G630] is used... (68x total):

https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_630.htm


And if that exercise doesn't help clarify too much, one must look at its own context and sort out what things he's saying within the context... that he was informed he wouldn't see death BEFORE he would see the Lord's Christ. Once he saw the Lord's Christ, he was "released [G630]"... (released to what? Die, in this case!... which was the Subject being covered in this context, see . Not "released [G630]" in the sense that Barabbas was "released [G630]" and not "released [G630]" in the sense that Timothy was "released [G630]"... but still "G630'd!" in a way that FITS THIS context and WHAT it was actually TALKING about here, see )




If Paul, per his CONTEXT, had been speaking of the death of INDIVIDUAL believers, you could convince me of what you are saying.

However, he was NOT speaking of that, and we can know this by the OTHER words and grammar in said text, which I've endeavored to point out to you repeatedly, but which words and grammar you are entirely disregarding...

Why is it that my version doesn't contradict "it is appointed unto man once to die" but yours does? Your version is a direct contradiction to several other bible verses that tell us that all men die, how can you figure you've got it right?

 

[Truth7t7]

You may have failed to note that there is no resurrection anywhere noted in Matthew 25, therefore it cannot be speaking of the WTJ, where a resurrection is mandated. Furthermore there are no righteous being judged at the GWT, nor are there any rewards given, nor is there any commendation. IMO the sum total of all of the redeemed /righteous have already been dealt with at the point of the WTJ.

The GWT judgement below sees the last day resurrection of "All" John 5:28-29, (Sea, Death and Hell) delivered up.

It also Cleary shows the (Book Of Life) open, all are judged at this time, righteous and wicked.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Daniel 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why not just let the bible say what it says? You're analyzing words so that you can make them fit your way. That's like tacking an exacto knife and trimming puzzle pieces to make them fit where you want them to fit. You're not going to reproduce the picture that way. It will no longer be the puzzle manufacturers image, it will be your own personalized image.
God doesn't work that way. He put STOP SIGNS up to prevent us from going the wrong direction. "It is appointed to man once to die" is a stop sign to the rapture. You guys not only ignore the stop sign, in one place, you ignore it in multiple places.

For example you guys say that not only is it NOT appointed to man to die once, but you have one group of people not dying at all and then you have another group of people who were raised from the dead with Christ and then dying again.... you guys have them dying TWICE.

One problem with you theory, is that Paul elsewhere tells what will take place following "our episynagoges ['gathering-together' (noun)] UNTO HIM" (our Rapture event)... and that is, "the man of sin BE REVEALED"... "whose COMING [/advent/ARRIVAL/presence/parousia] is after the WORKING OF SATAN with all power and signs and lying wonders... with all deceivableness of..." (etc etc...) (and 2Th2:10-12 "the LIE/the pseudei]")

 

[Absolutely]

The GWT judgement below sees the last day resurrection of "All" John 5:28-29, (Sea, Death and Hell) delivered up.

It also Cleary shows the (Book Of Life) open, all are judged at this time, righteous and wicked.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Daniel 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

2 resurrections.Not one
Rev 20
4".......beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


...then comes the 2nd res.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God took Enoch out of his body just prior to his death.

That's just your active imagination. God took Enoch -- BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT -- to Heaven. God also took Elijah -- BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT -- to Heaven.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Daniel 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[wow! what was that FLASHING THING goin on...??]

Anyway, the CONTEXT here limits this to Daniel's people. The "a nation [singular]" referring specifically to "Israel" not any and all nations randomly. "Sleep in the dust of the earth" refers to how they've been "SCATTERED" into all the nations... [aka "sow[n]...in the earth"]. And verses 3-4,10 tell what these particular ones GO ON TO DO (at the time being spoken of, in this context). It is not a "physical/bodily resurrection [from being physically dead]" like v.13 refers to. No. But like Romans 11:15 and Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 and Hosea 5:14-6:3 refer to, re: Israel's future [where it is LIKENED UNTO a "resurrection," in these passages and more that I've listed in past posts]

 

[Truth7t7]

2 resurrections.Not one
Rev 20
4".......beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


...then comes the 2nd res.

First resurrection means nothing more that the righteous.

There are "Two" resurrections on the last day, the righteous are blessed to be in the first, as the wicked partake in the second resurrection on the last day to the second death.

Daniel below clearly shows this last day resurrection, at the time of tribulation, the books are open, righteous and wicked 1st and 2nd

Last Day Resurrection Of All!

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Last Day Resurrection Of All!

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Last Day Resurrection Of All!
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, what you are saying of this "hour [hora]" is that it is a 60-minute period of time, and limited to that period of time EXCLUSIVELY.

What about the following three passages, are they speaking exclusively of a "60-minute hour" of time, in duration:

"But an hour [hora] is coming and now is [that VERY "60-minute period" and exclusively THAT DURATION only??], when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father also seeks such who worship Him." John 4:23

"They will put you out of the synagogues; but an hour [hora] is coming that everyone having killed you will think it is to offer a service to God." John 16:2

"“Look, an hour [hora] is coming and has already come [that VERY "60-minute period" and exclusively THAT DURATION only??] when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and you will leave Me all alone. Yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me." John 16:32 [maybe this one... literally "60-mins" only, and already arrived]


Is this how you are seeing it??

 

[Truth7t7]

[wow! what was that FLASHING THING goin on...??]

Anyway, the CONTEXT here limits this to Daniel's people. The "a nation [singular]" referring specifically to "Israel" not any and all nations randomly. "Sleep in the dust of the earth" refers to how they've been "SCATTERED" into all the nations... [aka "sow[n]...in the earth"]. And verses 3-4,10 tell what these particular ones GO ON TO DO (at the time being spoken of, in this context). It is not a "physical/bodily resurrection [from being physically dead]" like v.13 refers to. No. But like Romans 11:15 and Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 and Hosea 5:14-6:3 refer to, re: Israel's future [where it is LIKENED UNTO a "resurrection," in these passages and more that I've listed in past posts]

Your claim is "False" again, your 3 strikes were up long ago.

"EVERY ONE"!

Daniel 12:1-2 pertains to "ALL" who are written in the book of life, Old and New Testament alike.

How long will one "Deny" the basic truth of scripture, sad.

Daniel 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @Truth7t7 ,

Let me put it this way, the passage is saying more like this [considering vv.1-4,10 of Dan12]:

... say you're the pastor of Eighth Baptist Church of Possum Holler, and you say to congregation, "at that time, EBCoPH will be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Don't you perceive the second half of the sentence to be clarifying? Meaning, not 100% of the people who are members and attenders [some saved, some not saved--some "wise," some not] are going to be, but EVERY ONE THAT SHALL BE FOUND written in the book.

Well, in this text, "THY PEOPLE" refers to "Daniel's people," Israel... (at a specific future time period, per the context). Not 100% of the people will be "wise"... among them. [correlates with the "WISE servants" of the Olivet Discourse Matt24:42-44,45-47 ('far-future' trib yrs also) and its parallels like Luke 12:35,36-37,38,40,42-44...(same), etc...etc... "wise virgins" etc...], which is FOLLOWING "our Rapture" in the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect (which follows)... of "the DOTL" time-period which leads UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19).


I don't expect you'll be convinced... but for the readers: "the DOTL" time period STARTS at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that Jesus spoke of in the PLURAL in the Olivet Discourse... the INITIAL "BP [SINGULAR]" according to Him is NOT THE LAST, see (MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from there, IN/DURING the trib yrs leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19)