Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?

[UnitedWithChrist]

KJV (English):
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


Greek:
Οταν ἔλθῃ ὁ παράκλητος ὃν ἐγὼ πέμψω ὑμῖν παρὰ τοῦ πατρός, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας ὃ παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκπορεύεται, ἐκεῖνος μαρτυρήσει περὶ ἐμοῦ:
Now, whenever the consoler which I shall be sending you from the Father may be coming, the spirit of truth which is going out from the Father, that will be testifying concerning Me.


English version takes the Greek "THAT" and makes it into "HE."

That's not what the Greek states!
It states "THAT!"

So when the English makes "THAT" into "HE" and we read "HE" we think Person.

When you read "THAT" you don't think person!

I find it hard to believe that you aren't knowingly making false claims.

For instance, in this case Parakletos (comforter, advocate) is used of the Holy Spirit, and in 1 John 2:1, it is used in reference to Jesus.

Therefore your claim that it is not used in regards to a person in John 15:26 is disingenuous or ignorant at best, and I suspect it is a deliberate attempt to deceive less knowledgeable Trinitarians.

The Holy Spirit is a parakletos (comforter, advocate) for believers, in a similar way as Jesus is, the other advocate.

By the way, the cult I belonged to as a young person denied the Personhood of the Holy Spirit too.

I am beginning to think that anti-Trinitarians are simply evil and not just ignorant.

 

[biker]

I find it hard to believe that you aren't knowingly making false claims.

For instance, in this case Parakletos (comforter, advocate) is used of the Holy Spirit, and in 1 John 2:1, it is used in reference to Jesus.

Therefore your claim that it is not used in regards to a person in John 15:26 is disingenuous or ignorant at best, and I suspect it is a deliberate attempt to deceive less knowledgeable Trinitarians.

The Holy Spirit is a parakletos (comforter, advocate) for believers, in a similar way as Jesus is, the other advocate.

By the way, the cult I belonged to as a young person denied the Personhood of the Holy Spirit too.

I am beginning to think that anti-Trinitarians are simply evil and not just ignorant.

Adding/Taking away from God's word is a literal Blasphemous Act!

I showed you in John where Jesus calls Holy Spirit a "THAT," and in Mark where the One Person of God is called "HE!"

So even the Greek made a clarification.

 

[biker]

But the English just assigns him/his/he to everything.

Why I always complain about the English translation.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Adding/Taking away from God's word is a literal Blasphemous Act!

I showed you in John where Jesus calls Holy Spirit a "THAT," and in Mark where the One Person of God is called "HE!"

So even the Greek made a clarification.

You are not a Greek scholar therefore you are incapable of determining whether the translators rendered the Scripture accordingly.

As I have said, the first verse calls the Holy Spirit a parakletos (Helper, Comforter, Advocate) which are roles that Persons assume, not things. And, in 1 John 2:1 the same word is used to refer to Jesus, who is a Person.

I will inform others that cultists are very much into exerting their knowledge claims, with no academic background to support them. The founder of the cult I belonged to as a young man gave the impression that he knew Greek and Hebrew, but in reality he was nothing more than some Strong's concordance user. You can be pretty well assured that these guys are not much better.

If you're dumb enough to fall for their stuff, I feel sorry for you...maybe you will waste the rest of your life in such a cult, instead of the ten years I wasted.

 

[just_truth]

Do you understand what the word "coessential" means? It means to share the same essence. There is only one divine essence, which is spirit. So, no, there are not three separate spirits.

If it that case the three persons have only divine Spirit. So Oneness is right that there is only one divine Spirit of the three mentioned, as we believed that the divine Spirit is the Father which is in Jesus and the Spirit in action who is the Holy Spirit! And the true personality of God is the Spirit.

 

[biker]

You are not a Greek scholar therefore you are incapable of determining whether the translators rendered the Scripture accordingly.

As I have said, the first verse calls the Holy Spirit a parakletos (Helper, Comforter, Advocate) which are roles that Persons assume, not things. And, in 1 John 2:1 the same word is used to refer to Jesus, who is a Person.

I will inform others that cultists are very much into exerting their knowledge claims, with no academic background to support them. The founder of the cult I belonged to as a young man gave the impression that he knew Greek and Hebrew, but in reality he was nothing more than some Strong's concordance user. You can be pretty well assured that these guys are not much better.

If you're dumb enough to fall for their stuff, I feel sorry for you...maybe you will waste the rest of your life in such a cult, instead of the ten years I wasted.

It does clarify the Holy Spirit as the Consoler (Comforter). But where the English furthers by calling "HE," the Greek calls it "THAT."

 

[jaybird88]

I am interested to know if he passes a licensure exam of his baccalaureate degree he finished, because I myself pass the exam.

haha i know what you mean.

but in all serious, who cares about credentials. Jesus was the Christ, Son of the Most High, but did He have proper credentials from an accredited seminary institution? if He came today i bet thats how it would be.
i wish more people would let their actions speak for them rather than claiming they have a framed piece of paper.

 

[biker]

I was assemblies of God for my entire life in or out of the Church. But the DUMBEST and MOST RETARDED thing I have ever seen Preachers/Teachers try to describe is having 3 Persons running around Heaven in the form of One God! It's why I studied Science and the brain. I never understood how you can be that STUPID! I know now. But back then, I felt like I was surrounded by IDIOTS!

 

[biker]

I tried my hardest to make sense of it. But a few months ago, Mark 12 OPENED MY EYES!

And thank GOD He did!

 

[just_truth]

These are nonsense questions.

The Triune God is coessential. This means that the three Persons share the same essence, which is spirit.

So, no, they don't have three separate spirits. This would be tri-theism. I believe it could be referred to as Semi-Arianism as well.

If it that case the three persons have only divine Spirit. So Oneness is right that there is only one divine Spirit of the three mentioned, as we believed that the divine Spirit is the Father which is in Jesus and the Spirit in action from the Father who is the Holy Spirit! And the true personality of God is the Spirit.

 

[just_truth]

The Triune God is co-essential, meaning that the three Persons share the same essence. They mutually indwell one another. This essence is spirit. Therefore, there is only one spirit. Jesus has a dual nature, being both glorified man and Yahweh.

This is why the person can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of the Father, and the Spirit of Christ, and the Holy Spirit at the same time.

Can a one Spirit mutually indwell one another?? How the Holy Spirit indwells in the Father, any scriptural verse?
Scripturally the body of Christ fully God indwelt in Him.

 

[just_truth]

The Triune God is co-essential, meaning that the three Persons share the same essence. They mutually indwell one another. This essence is spirit. Therefore, there is only one spirit. Jesus has a dual nature, being both glorified man and Yahweh.

This is why the person can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of the Father, and the Spirit of Christ, and the Holy Spirit at the same time.

Can a one Spirit of the three persons mutually indwell one another?? How the Holy Spirit indwells in the Father, any scriptural verse?
Scripturally the body of Christ fully God indwelt in Him.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Can a one Spirit of the three persons mutually indwell one another?? How the Holy Spirit indwells in the Father, any scriptural verse?
Scripturally the body of Christ fully God indwelt in Him.

I think you know the answers to the questions and you only ask to amuse yourself.

What do you think Jesus meant when he said I am in the Father, and the Father is in me?

And, if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father, what does that mean?

It means they mutually indwell one another. How many times do I have to break it down before you understand it?

By the way, I will give you enough credit that I won't refer to the Scriptural references and will assume you have read the entire Bible at one time or another.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

If it that case the three persons have only divine Spirit. So Oneness is right that there is only one divine Spirit of the three mentioned, as we believed that the divine Spirit is the Father which is in Jesus and the Spirit in action from the Father who is the Holy Spirit! And the true personality of God is the Spirit.

The three Persons are co-essential meaning that they share the same essence, which is spirit.

Oneness people deny the distinct Personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So a Oneness person is right in one sense: that God is one in terms of essence, which is spirit. They are wrong in that they deny the distinct Personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

They are like a half-baked cake.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It does clarify the Holy Spirit as the Consoler (Comforter). But where the English furthers by calling "HE," the Greek calls it "THAT."

The translators are more qualified to judge the translation than some Strong's concordance Oneness guy with no formal training in Greek.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Adding/Taking away from God's word is a literal Blasphemous Act!

I showed you in John where Jesus calls Holy Spirit a "THAT," and in Mark where the One Person of God is called "HE!"

So even the Greek made a clarification.

The translators are not adding or taking away from the Word of God.

If they translated the original languages in the manner you are proposing, the English reader wouldn't even be able to read it. There are some inferences that must be made to translate from one language to another.

You have a simplistic view of what translation requires, and you are filtering your opinion about what Scripture should say through your Oneness lense.

Which isn't surprising.

I remember that the cultic guy I followed would scour every weird translation he could find to come up with someone who agreed with him, if the pieces of the puzzle didn't fit together the way he wanted. This is typical cult behavior.

It is obvious that the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person, as he can be grieved, etcetera. Attributes of personhood are inferred to Him.

By the way the cultic guy I followed denied the Personhood of the Holy Spirit as well. He had all kinds of elaborate explanations concerning this.

https://update.gci.org/2013/09/holy-spirit-person-or-power/

Here's an article refuting the idea that the Holy Spirit has no personhood.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Holy Spirit - Person or Power?
Joe Tkach, Jr.

Some claim that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal power. But viewing him in that way falls far short of what the New Testament teaches, undermining a full understanding of one of the most exciting and encouraging dimensions of our relationship with God.

In teaching about the Holy Spirit, the New Testament uses analogies related to both power and personhood. But why the mixture? If the doctrine of the Trinity is so important, why didn’t the New Testament authors spell it out more clearly?

It’s important to remember that the Bible was written within a particular cultural setting where some things were understood without detailed explanation. It’s the same today. If I mention “Monday morning quarterbacking” to Americans, most know what I mean without elaboration. But people unfamiliar with American football culture would not understand.

As we read what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit, we need to ask, are we expecting it to answer questions that were not questions in its original cultural setting? Would the original audience have assumed without further explanation that the Holy Spirit was personal and acted as a powerful agent? Scripture shows us that the answer is yes.

There are many places in Scripture where the Holy Spirit is referred to in personal terms. In John 16:14, Jesus refers to the Spirit using a personal (rather than a neuter) pronoun, saying “He will glorify me.” In Acts 15:28, the apostles spoke of the Spirit in personal terms when they said “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us.” The characteristics of a person are assumed by the biblical authors when they spoke of the Holy Spirit acting as do human persons: teaching, comforting, guiding, giving, calling and sending. They spoke of the Spirit as being resisted (Acts 7:51), argued with and personally replied to (10:14-20), grieved (Ephesians 4:30) and lied to (Acts 5:3-9). They also spoke of the Spirit distributing gifts according to his own will (1 Corinthians 12:11).

The early church recognized that “Holy Spirit” was used throughout Scripture as a proper name, just as are “Father” and “Son.” Jesus indicates that all three are personal names when he directs his disciples to baptize in “the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). This command hearkens back to Jesus’ own baptism where the Father, the Son and the Spirit were each personally present (Matthew 3:13-17).

Jesus distinguished the Spirit from himself in a personal sense when he said, “I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away for if I go not away, the Comforter [Paraclete] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you” (John 16:7 KJV). Jesus regarded the Holy Spirit not as an effect (comfort) but as a person who brings comfort (the Comforter).

In saying that he would send the Holy Spirit, Jesus distinguished the Spirit from himself and the Father in a personal sense: “But the Counselor [Paraclete], the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and will bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” (John 14:26 RSV). “When the Counselor [Paraclete] comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me” (John 15:26 RSV).

Because the name Paraclete is unfamiliar to us (my spell-check keeps asking if I mean “parakeet”!), English Bibles translate it as Counselor, Helper, Advocate or Comforter. But these translations fall short in conveying the name’s full meaning. Those who spoke Koine Greek understood Jesus’ meaning—they recognized that Jesus was speaking in personal terms when referring to “the Paraclete,” just as he was speaking in personal terms when referring to “the Son” and to “the Father.” Though these personal names were revolutionary, they were not ambiguous.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

In the ancient world, paracletos often was used in a legal sense—like our words advocate, attorney or lawyer (though likening the Spirit to a lawyer might not go down so well today!). Paracletos also was used in a military sense. Greek soldiers went into battle in pairs, standing together as they fought off the enemy. The Greeks called this trusted soldier and friend a paraclete. So when the first disciples heard Jesus refer to the Spirit as the Paraclete and speak of him otherwise in personal terms (as in Acts 1:5, 8), Jesus’ meaning would have been apparent to them without further explanation.

From the beginning, the early church was functionally and implicitly trinitarian. Like Jesus, it spoke of the Father, the Son and the Spirit using personal terms. However, as Christianity spread, other teachings arose. Church leaders had to counter heretical teachings concerning the nature of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and the relationships between the divine persons. Out of these debates came the doctrine of the Trinity, which was formalized in the Nicene Creed (shown below) where the Father, Son and Spirit are presented as unique divine persons who are inter-personally related. Note this comment from Thomas Torrance:

A definite doctrine of the Trinity was found to arise out of a faithful exegetical interpretation of the New Testament and out of the evangelical experience and liturgical life of the Church from the very beginning. It made explicit what was already implicit in the fundamental deposit of faith. It was with the formulation of the homoousion [meaning “of one being”—the term used in the Nicene Creed] clarifying and expressing the essential connection of the Son to the Father upon which the very Gospel rested, and with the application of the homoousion to the Holy Spirit to express his oneness in being with the Godhead of the Father, that the theological structure of the Trinitarian understanding of the Godhead unfolded and established itself firmly within the mind of the Church (The Trinitarian Faith, p. 199, emphasis added).​

Though the Nicene Creed made explicit the personhood of the Father, the Son and the Spirit, some Western thinkers (particularly since the Enlightenment) have explained God’s nature in impersonal, mechanistic and creaturely ways, including saying that the Holy Spirit is not God, but an impersonal power that emanates from God. But impersonal explanations of God’s nature always fall short. Why? Because God is not a creature, nor is he a mechanism. His true nature as a tri-personal, relational God is known only by revelation, from Jesus, recorded in Scripture. There the Holy Spirit is revealed as the Paraclete—a divine Person who is personal just as are the Father and the Son.

Grounded in this stunning revelation, we may think, speak, worship and act with assurance, knowing that the Holy Spirit is God just as the Father is God and the Son is God. One God; three persons: blessed Trinity!

 

[just_truth]

I think you know the answers to the questions and you only ask to amuse yourself.

What do you think Jesus meant when he said I am in the Father, and the Father is in me?

And, if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father, what does that mean?

It means they mutually indwell one another. How many times do I have to break it down before you understand it?


By the way, I will give you enough credit that I won't refer to the Scriptural references and will assume you have read the entire Bible at one time or another.

As what I posted the body of Christ in him God(Father) fully indwelt. The Father is in Christ dwelling, so it understood that Christ is in the Father. It seems like you are trying to describe that there are two spirits indwelling each other.

(((And, if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father, what does that mean?)))
It would only mean that there is only one divine Spirit of God from eternity who is the Father, then at Incarnation the same one Spirit fully dwelt in Jesus, and the same one Spirit in action which is the Holy Spirit.

Let me ask again, how the Father indwelt to the Holy Spirit? or how the Holy Spirit indwelt in the Father?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

As what I posted the body of Christ in him God(Father) fully indwelt. The Father is in Christ dwelling, so it understood that Christ is in the Father. It seems like you are trying to describe that there are two spirits indwelling each other.

(((And, if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father, what does that mean?)))
It would only mean that there is only one divine Spirit of God from eternity who is the Father, then at Incarnation the same one Spirit fully dwelt in Jesus, and the same one Spirit in action which is the Holy Spirit.

Let me ask again, how the Father indwelt to the Holy Spirit? or how the Holy Spirit indwelt in the Father?

Look..it's pretty obvious to me that you are intentionally ignoring what I"m saying and shaping it into something that I am not saying.

I am not describing "two spirits". There are not two separate spirits.

There are three distinct Persons. They share the same essence, which is spirit.

I've repeated this over and over again yet you don't seem to understand it.

I think it is because you are trying to interpret this through your Oneness lense, and that's why it does not make sense.

There is only one essence or being, which is spirit, and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share this one essence. That is what it means that they are coessential.

I don't think it's productive to discuss this matter with you because you are unable to understand what I am saying.