Pray for a COVID 19 Vaccine to be made available ASAP!

[cv5]

If there is not a huge spike in new infections in New York City in the next two or three weeks I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the warmer weather slows the spread of contagion. If there is a huge spike then that should be evidence that social distancing was helping.

Pray for the vaccine to be available as soon as possible so that another hundred thousand people may live and not die over the next few months.
Pray that the bureaucracy and red tape will be relaxed in the context of people dying without the vaccine.
Pray that anti-vaccine liars mouths will be stopped and that free speech rights will not be allowed to protect people from killing other people with bad medical advice.


When the vaccine is available have some good scientific information on hand to share. Information on how the vaccine causes your own immune system to create the antibodies in the same way that people wishfully claim natural remedies work (but really don't) It will be useful to attempt to educate those who do not know how vaccines work with at least one attempt, because many really do not understand the science and there are many trusting people that believe persuasive videos from antivaxxers wearing labcoats.

By providing the scientific information on how the vaccine works we may be responsible for saving a life and we may be the cause of a grand parent seeing many more grand baby birthdays and that is a noble thing that we can say we were responsible for.

So Pray for those working on the vaccine and pray that it will be available soon. Do not share anti-vaccine conspiracy theories and have a good scientific article on hand to share with any antivaxxer you are confronted by. Do not engage in heated arguments. Pass on the information and then pray for them. I will only attempt to educate an antivaxxer once. The servant of the Lord must not strive. But be apt to teach, patient with all men. It is worth trying once because the intellectually honest will concede to science and research data and reject fantasy and imagination rhetoric that people WANT to be true but really isn't.

The information below is an example of explaining to those who admit that they have no clue how vaccines work. It is a good introductory explanation and usually enough to answer the question.

HOW VACCINES WORK

A vaccine works by training the immune system to recognize and combat pathogens, either viruses or bacteria. To do this, certain molecules from the pathogen must be introduced into the body to trigger an immune response.


These molecules are called antigens, and they are present on all viruses and bacteria. By injecting these antigens into the body, the immune system can safely learn to recognize them as hostile invaders, produce antibodies, and remember them for the future. If the bacteria or virus reappears, the immune system will recognize the antigens immediately and attack aggressively well before the pathogen can spread and cause sickness. (Orange Juice cannot do this. LOL) my comment.

The Herd Immunity Imperative

Vaccines don't just work on an individual level, they protect entire populations. Once enough people are immunized, opportunities for an outbreak of disease become so low even people who aren't immunized benefit. Essentially, a bacteria or virus simply won't have enough eligible hosts to establish a foothold and will eventually die out entirely. This phenomenon is called "herd immunity" or "community immunity," and it has allowed once-devastating diseases to be eliminated entirely, without needing to vaccinate every individual. (from publichealth.org)

More detailed information can be found at the link below, or you can simply do a google search "how do vaccines work" and find other credible sites that explain it at any level of detail you are comfortable researching, down to the published research data on all trials and tests, going back for decades. https://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/

Do not be made a fool of by repeating wrong information from social media anti-vaccine lies. If all the social media platforms are deleting the anti-vaccine posts then you know they are total lies and you should not repeat it and look like a fool to those who are educated on the subject. But worse than looking like a fool, you could be responsible for killing someone by persuading them not to be vaccinated and that blood will be on your hands. SO DON'T DO IT!

http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=4288&pt=msg&mn=521550

I cannot vouch for everything on this link but it certainly is interesting now isn't it?

 

[cv5]

Everyone should research Gates, and his depopulation agenda, and about the toxins found in vaccines before agreeing to have something foreign injected into their bodies. And it is THEIR body. There is something odd about the government's push for a vaccine over a simple cold virus. Many people were severely harmed by the swine flu vaccine that was pushed through - many developed Guillian Barr syndrome and I've heard of other very severe adverse reactions.

It seems as if in a convoluted way you're attempting to warn others that if they say anything against vaccines they'll look like a fool. You also up the ante by saying you could be responsible for killing them. Maybe you need to realize that the reverse could be true: we've seen someone severely harmed by a vaccine and feel it's our duty to warn others, because, as you say, their blood could be on our hands.

Much can be done in strengthening one's immune system with vitamins. There are many antivirals such as iodine, oregano oil, real licorice root, and olive leaf extract.

The demand for everyone to take a vaccine is absurd. If you do not take the vaccine you may be at risk but no one else who takes the vaccine would be at risk. Theoretically. So free choice reigns supreme, your civil rights have been preserved, and no one should be forced to take any vaccine.

By the way pushing vaccines is pure evil. Right from the pit of hell. Satanic NWO Illuminati agenda in play.

 

[saintrose]

The whole story on Guillian Barr syndrome and vaccines. It is more likely to get GBS after getting the flu than after the vaccination.

GBS and the link to flu vaccine
In 1976, there was a small increased risk of GBS after swine flu vaccination, which was a special flu vaccine for a potential pandemic strain of flu virus. The National Academy of Medicine, formerly known as Institute of Medicine, conducted a scientific review of this issue in 2003 and found that people who received the 1976 swine flu vaccine had an increased risk for developing GBS. The increased risk was approximately one additional case of GBS for every 100,000 people who got the swine flu vaccine. Scientists have several theories about the cause, but the exact reason for this link remains unknown.
There have been several studies of the risk of GBS after flu vaccine and CDC monitors for GBS during each flu season. The data on an association between seasonal influenza vaccine and GBS have been variable from season-to-season. When there has been an increased risk, it has consistently been in the range of 1-2 additional GBS cases per million flu vaccine doses administered.
Studies suggest that it is more likely that a person will get GBS after getting the flu than after vaccination. It is important to keep in mind that severe illness and death are associated with flu, and getting vaccinated is the best way to prevent flu infection and its complications.
Related Scientific Articles
Kawai AT, Li L, Kulldorff M, Vellozzi C, et al. Absence of associations between influenza vaccines and increased risks of seizures, Guillain-Barré syndrome, encephalitis, or anaphylaxis in the 2012-2013 seasonexternal iconexternal icon. Pharmacoepidemiol Drug Saf. 2014 May;23(5):548-53.
Nordin JD, Kharbanda EO, Vazquez-Benitez G, et al. Monovalent H1N1 influenza vaccine safety in pregnant women, risks for acute adverse eventsexternal iconexternal icon. Vaccine. 2014 Sep 3;32(39):4985-92.
Greene SK, Rett MD, Vellozzi C, et al. Guillain-Barré Syndrome, Influenza Vaccination, and Antecedent Respiratory and Gastrointestinal Infections: A Case-Centered Analysis in the Vaccine Safety Datalink, 2009-2011external iconexternal icon. PLoS One. 2013 Jun 26;8(6):e67185.
DA Salmon, M Proschan, R Forshee, et al.: Association between Guillain-Barre syndrome and influenza A (H1N1) 2009 monovalent inactivated vaccines in the USA: a meta-analysisexternal iconexternal icon. Lancet 2013. 381:1461-1468.
Nelson KE. Invited commentary: Influenza vaccine and Guillain-Barre syndrome–is there a risk?external iconexternal icon Am J Epidemiol. 2012 Jun 1;175(11):1129-32.
Greene SK, Rett M, Weintraub ES, et al. Risk of confirmed Guillain-Barre syndrome following receipt of monovalent inactivated influenza A (H1N1) and seasonal influenza vaccines in the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project, 2009-2010.external iconexternal icon Am J Epidemiol. 2012 Jun 1;175(11):1100-9.
JI Tokars, P Lewis, F DeStefano, et al.: The risk of Guillain-Barre syndrome associated with influenza A (H1N1) 2009 monovalent vaccine and 2009-2010 seasonal influenza vaccines: results from self-controlled analysesexternal iconexternal icon. Pharmacoepidemiol Drug Saf.2012, 21:546-552.
R Baxter, N Lewis, N Bakshi, et al.CISA Network: Recurrent Guillain-Barre syndrome following vaccinationexternal iconexternal icon. Clin Infect Dis.2012. 54:800-804.
ME Wise, M Viray, JJ Sejvar, et al.: Guillain-Barre syndrome during the 2009-2010 H1N1 influenza vaccination campaign: population-based surveillance among 45 million Americansexternal iconexternal icon. Am J Epidemiol.2012. 175:1110-1119.
V Sivadon-Tardy, D Orlikowski, R Porcher, et al.: Guillain-Barre syndrome and influenza virus infectionexternal iconexternal icon. Clin Infect Dis.2009 Jan 48:48-56 2009.
DN Juurlink, TA Stukel, J Kwong, et al.: Guillain-Barre syndrome after influenza vaccination in adults: a population-based study.external iconexternal icon Arch Intern Med.2006. 166:2217-2221.
RA Hughes, J Charlton, R Latinovic, et al.: No association between immunization and Guillain-Barre syndrome in the United Kingdom, 1992 to 2000external iconexternal icon. Arch Intern Med.2006. 166:1301-1304.
P Haber, F DeStefano, FJ Angulo, et al.: Guillain-Barre syndrome following influenza vaccinationexternal iconexternal icon. JAMA. 292:2478-2481 2004.
T Lasky, GJ Terracciano, L Magder, et al.: The Guillain-Barre syndrome and the 1992-1993 and 1993-1994 influenza vaccines.external iconexternal icon N Engl J Med.1998. 339:1797-1802.
JE Kaplan, P Katona, ES Hurwitz, et al.: Guillain-Barre syndrome in the United States, 1979-1980 and 1980-1981. Lack of an association with influenza vaccinationexternal iconexternal icon. JAMA 1982. 248:698-700.
ES Hurwitz, LB Schonberger, DB Nelson, et al.: Guillain-Barre syndrome and the 1978-1979 influenza vaccineexternal iconexternal icon. N Engl J Med 1981. 304:1557-1561.

Nothing like personal experience to put to rest all the "experts." I know someone severely harmed after getting the swine flu vaccine. Every person should exercise caution before allowing anything to be injected into their body.

 

[saintrose]

I know someone who was severely harmed after getting the swine flu vaccine. Every person should research and decide on their own before allowing themselves to be injected with anything.

 

[Scribe]

If there is not a huge spike in new infections in New York City in the next two or three weeks I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the warmer weather slows the spread of contagion. If there is a huge spike then that should be evidence that social distancing was helping.

13 days have passed since I started this thread and today all the news networks are reporting how many states spiking. When the President gave his first Task Force address he said that his expert advisors were saying that 250,000 would probably die in the next few months. Those experts were smart. I am impressed that they got it so accurate. This is not the fl

Nothing like personal experience to put to rest all the "experts." I know someone severely harmed after getting the swine flu vaccine. Every person should exercise caution before allowing anything to be injected into their body.

Personal experience after getting a flu shot is not science. Many claim that something happened to them after they got the flu shot but the flu shot had nothing to do with it. That is just the way people normally think. I was ok, then I got the flu shot, then I got sick. Must be the flu shot. But that is not science that is speculation. I would not have any confidence in my personal diagnosis as to connecting a flu shot with an illness that came after. How could I know it was the cause. Coincidence in timing is more likely.

Nothing like personal experience to put to rest all the "experts." I know someone severely harmed after getting the swine flu vaccine. Every person should exercise caution before allowing anything to be injected into their body.

Yes, read the published data. That is how to exercise caution.

If someone gets a flu vaccine or any vaccine and then afterwards they get sick that is not scientific proof that the vaccine caused it.
Many get the flu shot at the time of year that allergies from pollen are common. They get the flu shot, the next week they have a sore throat and they go around telling everyone that they KNOW for SURE that the vaccine made them sick. They go to the doctor and find out that allergies to pollen has been causing sinus drainage on the back of their throat when they sleep which caused the irritation, no virus flu or cold involved. Then they don't go back and tell everyone they told that the flu shot made them sick because they are embarrassed about how adamant they were about KNOWING it was the flu shot that was the cause. And the people they told tell everyone 'I know someone who got the flu shot and got a sore throat'. People like to say the KNOW something but it is really just speculation.

 

[Reformyourself]

There are now seven coronaviruses. They’ve not yet found a vaccine for the other six 😐

 

[Moses_Young]

It is important to keep in mind that severe illness and death are associated with flu, and getting vaccinated is the best way to prevent flu infection and its complications.

Influenza is caused by electromagnetic poisoning, not a virus, and therefore a vaccine can provide only risk with no benefit.

 

[lenna]

I pray the Lord gives strength for EVERYONE to refuse to willingly take this vaccine.

There is so much conflicting info on this thing and since the flu vaccine people get every year is not current, I would like to know why we should expect this vaccine to somehow be a miracle cure?

 

[lenna]

When the vaccine is available have some good scientific information on hand to share. Information on how the vaccine causes your own immune system to create the antibodies in the same way that people wishfully claim natural remedies work (but really don't) It will be useful to attempt to educate those who do not know how vaccines work with at least one attempt, because many really do not understand the science and there are many trusting people that believe persuasive videos from antivaxxers wearing labcoats.

But if you get a vaccine you do understand the science? A good number of people have adverse reactions to vaccines and don't tell me that is not true. Even animals have adverse reactions. Maybe educate yourself about that without assuming if a person does not want the vaccine they must be anti-science or something.

Not meaning to be insulting, but your post is kinda insulting IMO with your use of such a broad brush to try to explain why people may not want the vaccine.

I have already had adverse reactions thank you very much, so I will not be offering my arm again.

I pray that we have not come to the point where you have no choice in what someone else tells you to do. That, is really the beginning of the end. Even God gives a choice.

 

[Scribe]

But if you get a vaccine you do understand the science? A good number of people have adverse reactions to vaccines and don't tell me that is not true. Even animals have adverse reactions. Maybe educate yourself about that without assuming if a person does not want the vaccine they must be anti-science or something.

Not meaning to be insulting, but your post is kinda insulting IMO with your use of such a broad brush to try to explain why people may not want the vaccine.

I have already had adverse reactions thank you very much, so I will not be offering my arm again.

I pray that we have not come to the point where you have no choice in what someone else tells you to do. That, is really the beginning of the end. Even God gives a choice.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion. My opinion is that the science proves by the time the testing has been done they are usually safe. Everytime I research the data behind a story that they often cause a problem it is not true. I will keep urging people to read the science and get vaccinated and you can say whatever it is you want to say about it from your perspective. I am fully persuaded that the science, history and reality proves vaccines are safe and those who dont agree have no science to back them up, just stories that are almost 99% of the time exaggerations or lies. If it offends them let them be offended. If it helps someone read the published medical data and get a vaccine and live I have helped save a life. We can end this conversation now I will not be agreeing with any anti vaxxers in this life or the one to come

 

[EleventhHour]

I have yet to meet anyone in the medical field that states the vaccine are without a cost... it is always a cost-benefit analysis and each vaccine has to be individually researched.

Certainly, we would still be dealing small pox were it not for a vaccine, which has now been totally eradicated from the planet.

Christians have become so "anti science" it is almost frightening.

There are ways to access the information on the clinical trials of medication, published through reputable journals if one wants to delve into the science and the math of the research.

 

[Scribe]

There are now seven coronaviruses. They’ve not yet found a vaccine for the other six 😐

Or are you talking about these seven strains of Coronavirus?
Four human coronaviruses produce symptoms that are generally mild:

1. Human coronavirus OC43 (HCoV-OC43), β-CoV
2. Human coronavirus HKU1 (HCoV-HKU1), β-CoV
3. Human coronavirus 229E (HCoV-229E), α-CoV
4. Human coronavirus NL63 (HCoV-NL63), α-CoV

Three human coronaviruses produce symptoms that are potentially severe:

1. Middle East respiratory syndrome-related coronavirus (MERS-CoV), β-CoV
2. Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV), β-CoV
3. Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), β-CoV COVID 19

This is why I am praying. I am praying for a breakthrough in the science so that they are successful in wiping out this particular strain. If we can believe to move mountains why not THIS MOUNTAIN?

 

[saintrose]

13 days have passed since I started this thread and today all the news networks are reporting how many states spiking. When the President gave his first Task Force address he said that his expert advisors were saying that 250,000 would probably die in the next few months. Those experts were smart. I am impressed that they got it so accurate. This is not the fl

Personal experience after getting a flu shot is not science. Many claim that something happened to them after they got the flu shot but the flu shot had nothing to do with it. That is just the way people normally think. I was ok, then I got the flu shot, then I got sick. Must be the flu shot. But that is not science that is speculation. I would not have any confidence in my personal diagnosis as to connecting a flu shot with an illness that came after. How could I know it was the cause. Coincidence in timing is more likely.


Yes, read the published data. That is how to exercise caution.

If someone gets a flu vacci
ne or any vaccine and then afterwards they get sick that is not scientific proof that the vaccine caused it.
Many get the flu shot at the time of year that allergies from pollen are common. They get the flu shot, the next week they have a sore throat and they go around telling everyone that they KNOW for SURE that the vaccine made them sick. They go to the doctor and find out that allergies to pollen has been causing sinus drainage on the back of their throat when they sleep which caused the irritation, no virus flu or cold involved. Then they don't go back and tell everyone they told that the flu shot made them sick because they are embarrassed about how adamant they were about KNOWING it was the flu shot that was the cause. And the people they told tell everyone 'I know someone who got the flu shot and got a sore throat'. People like to say the KNOW something but it is really just speculation.

To begin with, you cannot trust any of the networks because they're owned by the same group controlling all governments. The President is nothing but a patsy for them who was put in place to placate the Christians to think he's for them as he continues to implement the North American Union - which he just fast-tracked by signing the agreement with Mexico and Canada.

If someone develops an inability to think and notices that their entire system was changed right after getting the swine flu shot, then I'd say the possibility is 99.9% sure that the damage came from the shot. Yes, the possibility does exist that there is a fluke and the person "just happened" to develop symptoms after the shot but it would concern me enough that I'd steer clear of getting injected with a vaccine. With the CDC's history of shenanigans, I wouldn't trust anything that they were involved in developing.

In the end it's up to each person and I'd be leery of anyone pushing a vaccine.

 

[Scribe]

To begin with, you cannot trust any of the networks because they're owned by the same group controlling all governments. The President is nothing but a patsy for them who was put in place to placate the Christians to think he's for them as he continues to implement the North American Union - which he just fast-tracked by signing the agreement with Mexico and Canada.

If someone develops an inability to think and notices that their entire system was changed right after getting the swine flu shot, then I'd say the possibility is 99.9% sure that the damage came from the shot. Yes, the possibility does exist that there is a fluke and the person "just happened" to develop symptoms after the shot but it would concern me enough that I'd steer clear of getting injected with a vaccine. With the CDC's history of shenanigans, I wouldn't trust anything that they were involved in developing.

In the end it's up to each person and I'd be leery of anyone pushing a vaccine.

If someone feels out of sorts after a vaccine that is normal. Your immune system has just created antibodies because it though it was under attack. This goes away. It is not reason for alarm. It is to be expected. If people read the literature they would know that instead of freaking out.

Not all journalists in the world are deeply entrenched in a plot to deceive us. The CDC is an awesome organization and only getting better every year. 10,800 employees and they are as committed to their jobs to protect, help humanity, and fight disease as you are to want to help people, (assuming you care and want to help people). They are not perfect but we should invest in making them better rather than spreading conspiracy lies about them.

I am leery of all people who believe in and spread illogical and unreasonable theories. I will not appoint them into leadership positions because I cannot trust them to be of sound mind or make logical and reasonable decisions in other areas. I am leery of people who think that the CDC, or the FDA are evil organizations. I am leery of people who tell others not to get a vaccine. As for a flat earther? I just walk across the street and go the other way if I see one coming. LOL

I do not hate them. I pray for them. I ask the Lord to reveal to them how it destroys their ability to witness about Jesus Christ after they spread lies about other theories. Many will never recover their credibility in this life from those who they have spoken to about crazy theories they believe are true. They have traded their desire to share that crazy theory with a lost person rather than the Gospel. Because when they try to share the gospel with that person later that person is not listening to anything you say. They think you are a nut but are too nice to tell you. THAT IS A FACT! THAT YOU CAN TAKE TO THE BANK!
So the next time you want to share a crazy theory with someone that you know is probably not true but you share it as if you believe it is fact, stop yourself and think... "Self.. this is a good time to share the Gospel with this person instead of this crazy theory" And use that enthusiasm you were about to invest in a story about the government plot to ... whatever whatever.. and instead share the Gospel message with them.

 

[lenna]

Everyone has a right to their own opinion. My opinion is that the science proves by the time the testing has been done they are usually safe. Everytime I research the data behind a story that they often cause a problem it is not true. I will keep urging people to read the science and get vaccinated and you can say whatever it is you want to say about it from your perspective. I am fully persuaded that the science, history and reality proves vaccines are safe and those who dont agree have no science to back them up, just stories that are almost 99% of the time exaggerations or lies. If it offends them let them be offended. If it helps someone read the published medical data and get a vaccine and live I have helped save a life. We can end this conversation now I will not be agreeing with any anti vaxxers in this life or the one to come

LOL! I guess that includes you also? I have done plenty of research and doctors are still scratching their heads over my results from a vaccine and I just had another volley of blood tests. I am not necessarily against vaccines. I had them all as a child but people develop allergies and our bodes change I think it's what? every 7 years?

I think you have some things to learn and you might learn them the hard way with the attitude you appear to have

 

[GaryA]

Influenza is caused by electromagnetic poisoning, not a virus, and therefore a vaccine can provide only risk with no benefit.

Can you point me to some really good specific research on this?

 

[GaryA]

We can end this conversation now I will not be agreeing with any anti vaxxers in this life or the one to come

Proverbs 27:

1 Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.


Just wait until God shows you the truth about the true nature of the world you live in . . .

( in this life or the one to come )

 

[Scribe]

Proverbs 27:

1 Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.


Just wait until God shows you the truth about the true nature of the world you live in . . .

( in this life or the one to come )

Not going to see me wearing any aluminum foil hats or avoiding 5G signals, or hating on Bill Gates either. LOL

 

[Scribe]

LOL! I guess that includes you also? I have done plenty of research and doctors are still scratching their heads over my results from a vaccine and I just had another volley of blood tests. I am not necessarily against vaccines. I had them all as a child but people develop allergies and our bodes change I think it's what? every 7 years?

I think you have some things to learn and you might learn them the hard way with the attitude you appear to have

I will stick with the science and reject the folk lore, old wives tales, conjectures, speculation and bad reasoning like "if I get sick after a vaccine it is 99% sure to be the vaccine" That is not science and really rather an uneducated reasoning that comes natural but is not accurate. The value of science is that we can observe cause and effect under the microscope and identify the issues. Until the cause is identified no one should say they KNOW what it is. The ironic thing is that I have observed a type of personality that will KNOW for certain out of intuition, apriori knowledge and just speculation because they think their intuition is so POWERFUL that it does not require proof, and when they discover they were wrong, they do not learn from it and repeat the same belligerent behavior all over again determining that something is the way they say it is without evidence. And they get proven wrong again and again and they never just stop and say.. this time I am going to not conclude anything until I find out more information. These are the kinds of people who will swear on a stack of bibles that someone stole something from their Car, purse, house etc. only to find it later where they left it. And then do the same thing again the next month when they loose another item. They will tell you I KNOW that it was stolen and I think I KNOW who did it. And then they find it again and they never change. These are the kinds of people who KNOW that the vaccine made them sick or someone else and they haven't a shred of science to back them up. Don't even visit their house your liable to be accused of stealing something when they misplace it themselves. They will say I KNOW it was here on that table before so and so came for a visit and now it's gone. It is 99% evidence they took it. But then they will find and and do it all over again next time.

 

[cv5]

I have yet to meet anyone in the medical field that states the vaccine are without a cost... it is always a cost-benefit analysis and each vaccine has to be individually researched.

Certainly, we would still be dealing small pox were it not for a vaccine, which has now been totally eradicated from the planet.

Christians have become so "anti science" it is almost frightening.

There are ways to access the information on the clinical trials of medication, published through reputable journals if one wants to delve into the science and the math of the research.

Anti-science are we? Are you aware that scientist so-called are practically 100% wrong 100% of the time? Are you aware of the fact that the "standard models"........ ALL of them are obsolete and yet they still remain in the textbooks?

For example the sun is undoubtedly and unquestionably electric in nature. The sun is in fact a plasmoid in arc mode. All stars every last one of them are driven by electromagnetic forces and are either in glow mode or arc mode or somewhere in between. Black holes are nothing more than dielectric counterspace nodes. Practically every theory about black holes that has been published is completely and laughably bogus.

Never ever put your faith in science or scientists. All of the published stuff is either a pack of lies or woefully obsolete.