Catholicism vs Protestantism

[jaybo]

well, my impression is that slavery in New testament times varied widely.

some things I found:
The fate of a slave depended largely on the temperament of his or her master. Masters could punish slaves brutally for real or perceived infractions. Sexual abuse of slaves was also common. Slave work included hard labor as well as skilled service like tutoring, bookkeeping, and estate managing.
https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/passages/related-articles/slavery-in-the-new-testament

Slavery in New Testament times had shades of early American chattel slavery, modern sex trafficking, Old Testament debt bondage, and even apprenticeships and internships.
https://www.compellingtruth.org/slavery-New-Testament.html

If you look hard enough you can find anything online to prove a predetermined answer.

Here are some definitions from Scripture; they tell a different story...

Matthew 20:26-28, "Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Romans 6:14-22, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?" => slave to obedience <= "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 7:22, "For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.

 

[Bede]

@Wansvic

Here are some more from before 325AD

Tertullian
For the law of baptising has been imposed, and the formula prescribed; "Go" says Christ "teach the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (On Baptism chap 13 [200-206])

Origen
"Why, when the Lord himself told his disciples that they should baptize all peoples in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, does this apostle employ the name of Christ alone in baptism, saying, 'We who have been baptized into Christ'; for indeed, legitimate baptism is had only in the name of the Trinity" (Commentary on Romans 5:8 [ca. A.D. 250]).

Cyprian
"He commanded them to baptize the Gentiles in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How then do some say that though a Gentile be baptized . . . never mind how or of whom, so long as it be done in the name of Jesus Christ, the remission of sins can follow - when Christ himself commands the nations to be baptized in the full and united Trinity?" (Letter to Jubianus 73:18 [A.D. 255]).

 

[Dan_473]

Is pray to queen of heaven Christian tradition?

imo, there's not a simple answer to that question.

there's this
18. But since we left off burning incense to the queen of the sky, and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
(Jeremiah, 44)

but that's not what Catholics are thinking of.

there's this
1. A great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
(Revelation, 12)

is the woman talked about there Mary?

is asking another Christian to pray for you biblical or a tradition?

does it matter if that Christian has died?

how a person answers those questions will determine how much they think praying to the Queen of heaven is tradition or biblical.

 

[Bede]

imo, there's not a simple answer to that question.

there's this
18. But since we left off burning incense to the queen of the sky, and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
(Jeremiah, 44)

but that's not what Catholics are thinking of.

there's this
1. A great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
(Revelation, 12)

is the woman talked about there Mary?

is asking another Christian to pray for you biblical or a tradition?

does it matter if that Christian has died?

how a person answers those questions will determine how much they think praying to the Queen of heaven is tradition or biblical.

You have opened a can of worms there!
It could keep this thread going for another 1,000 posts.

 

[Dan_473]

People disagree about many things in the bible. However, when it comes to something as crucial as ones spiritual rebirth a person better be sure they obey what is seen in the word.

by "the word", do you mean the words of Jesus?

did Jesus stop speaking when the last scripture was written down, in your view?

 

[Dan_473]

And Jesus promise Holy Spirit will help us to understand.

Can we bear fruit of ourselves? No

In the same token, we can't bear many thing on verse 12

Do you think pray to queen of heaven is the thing that Jesus mean by the thing that Jesus not tell them in verse 12?

it's possible!

we may wish to remember, too, that when most modern English speakers use the word
pray,
they think in terms of worship toward a deity.

probably better when talking about Mary to think in terms of asking Mary to intercede for you.

 

[Dan_473]

If you look hard enough you can find anything online to prove a predetermined answer.

Here are some definitions from Scripture; they tell a different story...

Matthew 20:26-28, "Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Romans 6:14-22, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?" => slave to obedience <= "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 7:22, "For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.

well, there was a lot of variation in the world of slavery back then, wasn't there?

consider what we know of human nature.
put one person in control of another.
if the master has perverse desires (very common) and the slave is attractive (common again), sex slavery will result.

there's some evidence that otherwise good people like Thomas Jefferson gave in to that temptation.

A bit different situation, some of the same ideas in play
10. When you go forth to battle against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands, and you carry them away captive,
11. and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you have a desire to her, and would take her to you as wife;
12. then you shall bring her home to your house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
13. and she shall put the clothing of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in your house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that you shall go in to her, and be her husband, and she shall be your wife.
(Deuteronomy, 21)

so if you're an Israelite warrior and for whatever reason none of the girls around you want anything to do with you, no problem.
just take one of the captured girls.

but all of this to say that whether baptism or slavery, best to make sure it all lines up with the fruit of the spirit
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23. gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
(Galatians, 5)

 

[Jackson123]

is the woman talked about there Mary?

Do you believe that woman Mary? If so why?

is asking another Christian to pray for you biblical or a tradition?

Ask another live Christian to pray is on the Bible

does it matter if that Christian has died?

Do you believe the death able to hear you?

how a person answers those questions will determine how much they think praying to the Queen of heaven is

Is heaven have a queen?
Queen of heaven is pagan God

 

[Jackson123]

probably better when talking about Mary to think in terms of asking Mary to intercede for you.

1. It mean you believe she able to hear billions people.

2. Intercede mean ask her pray for you
Example: Mary, please pray for me.

If I ask my pastor to pray for me, I will say,:" pastor please pray for me".
Not say to my death pastor
Oh powerfull death pastor, protect me, I entrust myself to you.

This is oray to not ask to pray for me.

This is how pope pray and entrust all catholic

• 
• 
• Parishes
• Schools
• Clergy
• Events
• Offices
• Pray
• Donate

Pope Francis’ Prayer to Mary for Protection from Coronavirus
> Coronavirus Updates: Prevention, Precautions and Prayers > Prayer Resources > Pope Francis’ Prayer to Mary for Protection from Coronavirus

Download the above prayer image as a graphic for social media: English | Spanish.

 

[Jackson123]

probably better when talking about Mary to think in terms of asking Mary to intercede for you.

1. It mean you believe she able to hear billions people.

2. Intercede mean ask her pray for you
Example: Mary, please pray for me.

If I ask my pastor to pray for me, I will say,:" pastor please pray for me".
Not say to my death pastor
Oh powerfull death pastor, protect me, I entrust myself to you.

This is oray to not ask to pray for me.

This is how pope pray and entrust all catholic to queen

• Aboute
  • 
    
  • 
  • 
• Parishes
• Schools
• Clergy
• Events
• Offices
• Pray
• Donate

Pope Francis’ Prayer to Mary for Protection from Coronavirus
> Coronavirus Updates: Prevention, Precautions and Prayers > Prayer Resources > Pope Francis’ Prayer to Mary for Protection from Coronavirus

Download the above prayer image as a graphic for social media: English | Spanish.

 

[Jackson123]

The title tell what is it

Title : pray to doesn't mean ask one to pray.

 

[Dan_473]

Do you believe that woman Mary? If so why?

I don't know for sure if it's Mary or not.
my feeling is our probably refers to the nation of Israel.

Ask another live Christian to pray is on the Bible

Do you believe the death able to hear you?

I think the Bible is unclear about our relationship with Christians who have died.
since to God everyone is alive, it's hard for me to believe that people stop being part of the church, the body of Christ, just because they no longer have a physical body on Earth.

the Bible doesn't give a lot of detail about how much dead people know what's going on here.

Is heaven have a queen?

Queen of heaven is pagan God

whether heaven has a queen or not depends how one interprets Revelation 12, imo.

yes,
Queen of heaven
is a term used for a pagan deity.
but the word
Easter
is also based on a pagan deity, and most Protestants use that.

 

[Bede]

The title tell what is it

Title : pray to doesn't mean ask one to pray.

Read this - (post #165) https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...nd-other-religions.192616/page-9#post-4273391

 

[Dan_473]

1. It mean you believe she able to hear billions people.

the Bible doesn't state that she can or she can't.
I wouldn't say that a person couldn't be a Christian because of a belief one way or the other.

2. Intercede mean ask her pray for you
Example: Mary, please pray for me.

yes, asking another Christian to pray for you is biblical, imo.

If I ask my pastor to pray for me, I will say,:" pastor please pray for me".
Not say to my death pastor
Oh powerfull death pastor, protect me, I entrust myself to you.

right, that's part of your practice.

This is oray to not ask to pray for me.

This is how pope pray and entrust all catholic to queen

sorry, I can't make sense out of your English there.

 

[Dan_473]

The title tell what is it

Title : pray to doesn't mean ask one to pray.

I believe you are misunderstanding the English there.

 

[Jackson123]

my feeling is our probably refers to the nation of Israel.

My feeling is church, because a church is a bride also spiritual Israelites

I think the Bible is unclear about our relationship with Christians who have died.

I never read in the Bible Christian pray to Moses, or Stephen that die before apostles, that is clue not pray to the death.
In my country some people pray to the death, it is pagan tradition.
My friend sister in law use to ask his death uncle an advice before she accept Jesus.
Her uncle use to good in Tabasco business. Every years people buy Tabasco at harvest season, and store it than sale it when the price up. Tabasco price low at harvest season and up few months after. But the quality of Tabaco change from harvest to harvest, depend on rain and temperature. Some time people store Taba

I believe you are misunderstanding the English there.

And you believe pray to mean ask one to pray for you?

 

[Dan_473]

My feeling is church, because a church is a bride also spiritual Israelites

possibly, but then the church would be giving birth to Jesus, which sounds strange to me
2. She was with child. She cried out in pain, laboring to give birth.
(Revelation, 12)

I never read in the Bible Christian pray to Moses, or Stephen that die before apostles, that is clue not pray to the death.

that's true.
at the same time, we don't read about any church groups owning buildings in the Bible, either.
yet it is an accepted common practice among both Catholics and Protestants.

In my country some people pray to the death, it is pagan tradition.

My friend sister in law use to ask his death uncle an advice before she accept Jesus.

Her uncle use to good in Tabasco business. Every years people buy Tabasco at harvest season, and store it than sale it when the price up. Tabasco price low at harvest season and up few months after. But the quality of Tabaco change from harvest to harvest, depend on rain and temperature. Some time people store Taba

yes, there are many pagan practices involving praying to the Dead.

pagans also practice animal sacrifice.
but we see that God also commanded that to the Israelites.

so sometimes there was an overlap between pagan practices and things that are okay with God.

And you believe pray to mean ask one to pray for you?

well, before we talk about the grammar and vocabulary of that situation,
how about we solve this previous situation?

do you agree that Paul is saying that the unknown God is the God who made the world?

"Now I am going to tell you about this ‘unknown god.’ He is the God who made the world."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17&version=NIRV

 

[Bede]

Do you believe that woman Mary? If so why?

In Rev 12:1 we read “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars”

Who is this woman? Three different suggestions are proposed; Mary, symbolic of Israel, symbolic of the Church. It is possible that she represents all three. Such “fusion imagery” is common in the Bible, especially in apocalyptic literature.

For example in Rev 4:6-8 the four beasts around the throne are a fusion of the elements of the cherubim in Ezekial 10:1-14 and the Seraphim in Isaiah 6:1-6.
Like the cherubim in Ezekial they have faces of a man, an ox, a lion and an eagle, like the Seraphim they had six wings.

The elders around the throne are 24 (Rev 4:4) because they are a fusion of the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles.

Polyvalent symbolism is also a feature of Revelation. For example the seven heads of the beast in Rev 17:3 represent seven hills and also seven kings (Rev 17:9)

It would not be surprising therefore if the woman in Rev 12 is a fusion and/or polyvalent symbolism with elements of Israel and the Church present. Primarily though the woman must be Mary, the mother of Jesus because the woman is identified as giving birth to a son, “a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod”– reference to Psalm 2:9 & Rev 11:15. Moreover “Her child was caught up to God and his throne” so the child is clearly Jesus. Therefore the woman who gave him birth is Mary.

 

[jaybo]

In Rev 12:1 we read “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars”

Who is this woman? Three different suggestions are proposed; Mary, symbolic of Israel, symbolic of the Church. It is possible that she represents all three. Such “fusion imagery” is common in the Bible, especially in apocalyptic literature.

For example in Rev 4:6-8 the four beasts around the throne are a fusion of the elements of the cherubim in Ezekial 10:1-14 and the Seraphim in Isaiah 6:1-6.
Like the cherubim in Ezekial they have faces of a man, an ox, a lion and an eagle, like the Seraphim they had six wings.

The elders around the throne are 24 (Rev 4:4) because they are a fusion of the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles.

Polyvalent symbolism is also a feature of Revelation. For example the seven heads of the beast in Rev 17:3 represent seven hills and also seven kings (Rev 17:9)

It would not be surprising therefore if the woman in Rev 12 is a fusion and/or polyvalent symbolism with elements of Israel and the Church present. Primarily though the woman must be Mary, the mother of Jesus because the woman is identified as giving birth to a son, “a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod”– reference to Psalm 2:9 & Rev 11:15. Moreover “Her child was caught up to God and his throne” so the child is clearly Jesus. Therefore the woman who gave him birth is Mary.

Revelation 12:13-15, " When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

Do you really think this is about Mary?? Did she fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness? Did Mary escape from a flood (not mentioned anywhere else in Scripture)?

The Bible says what it says. It's a lot more than a random selection of a few verses taken out of context to prove a predetermined doctrine.

 

[Jackson123]

Read this - (post #165) https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...nd-other-religions.192616/page-9#post-4273391

This is the problem, my brother bede, why ask protection to Mary? Why not to Jesus?


It doesn't matter parakleo or porseo Mary not able to protect you from coved 19

''This is one of the sentence I quote from pope pray to mary

Quote

We seek refuge under your protection, O Holy Mother of God.

End quote

Mother of God? Who create heaven and earth? Jesus
Who create Mary? Jesus

Mary is His creation