Re: Thread On Catholic And Other Religions
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B
There is a lot of mud unjustly thrown at Catholics. Some of it is because of the amount of misinformation and distortions that seem to be on many web sites. Some of it is because of different usage of words - for example pray and worship. It can result in people talking past each other, not understanding the other and claiming the other is wrong. But using a word differently is not necessarily wrong. It seems to be a special problem with English (not that I'm conversant with other languages).
R
I know, and I’ve been ‘one of them’ so I’m really sorry...im all churched out these days. I only became catholic at 11 because mum wanted to go back to rc, so I threw myself into it. Loved the sacraments, especially confession & communion (still do lol). Watched the devout older women with envy, because I believe they loved The Lord... I’m not a proddy dog either. Luther was a very angry man, ask Zwingli 😁
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B
Let me take "pray"
Earlier, (I think in this thread) I said:
Catholic pray to Mary
Catholics do not pray to Mary
Both these statements are true.
The difference is resolved by understanding the different uses of the word “pray”.
Consider the etymology of the word:
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.(from the Online Etymology Dictionary)
So pray means, at its root, ask earnestly, entreat, beg, request.
If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray”.
Take these extracts from that great English writer, Jane Austen
“But pray, Colonel, how came you to conjure out that I should be in town today?” (Mrs Jennings to Colonel Brandon in Sense and Sensibility)
"Oh! cousin, stop a moment, pray stop!" (Fanny Price to Edmund in Mansfield Park)
Scripture itself uses the word pray in this manner:
Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. (Acts 24:4 - KJV)
Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health (Acts 27:34 - KJV)
The Greek word translated pray here is parakaleo. According to a Greek dictionary this means:- ask, beg, implore, petition, pray, request, solicit, urge, woo
A different Greek word is used here:
I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours, (John 17:9).
The Greek word we translate as pray comes from the Greek erotao which means: ask, query, question.
This is the same word that Jesus uses in his parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31). At one point the rich man (now in hell) says to Abraham "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house" (vs 27). Pray here is eroto.
And here is another one:
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? (Acts 8:34)
The Greek word here is deomai (G1189) meaning to beg, petition, beseech, make request
So to summarise so far, to use "pray" for "ask" is scriptural and it is in this sense that Catholics pray to Mary. They are asking her for her prayers for us.
Praying to God
Another word that is used in the NT is proseuchomai as when Jesus says: But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret (Mt 6:6).
It is this word proseuchomai that is generally used for addressing God.
Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise because most protestants, who do not pray to Mary, do not understand this distinction and assume that Catholics pray to Mary in the same way that they pray to God.
Spirit & Truth Fellowship International (not Catholic) say about proseuchomai & parakaleo:
The Greek verb proseuchomai (#4336 proseu,comai) and its noun form proseuche (#4335 proseuch,), like euchomai and euche, denote prayer in the more general sense. This means the content of the prayer may include various specific requests (aitema), supplications (deēsis), intercessions (enteuxis), etc. However proseuchomai and proseuche are only used as prayer to God (the prefix pros means towards)—whereas euchomai and deēsis are not restricted in this way (Trench, Synonyms). It generally “seems to indicate not so much the contents of the prayer as its end and aim” (Thayer).
The Greek verb parakaleō (#3870 parakale,w) and its noun form paraklēsis (#3874 para,klhsij) have a very wide range of meaning. Further, they appear quite often in scripture (109 verb uses; 29 noun uses). The words’ basic meaning is to call to one’s side. “To call some one hither, that he may do something…to use persuasion with him” (Bullinger). The calling along can be meant to appeal or plead; encourage or urge; to comfort; summon or invite; only once is it applied to God and that by the Lord Jesus (Matt 26:53).
Their text on this lists many words Greek words that are translated as “pray” – euchomai, proseuchomai, erotao, aiteo, deomai, parakaleo, entynchano with explanations and examples in the NT.
See https://www.stfonline.org/pdf/rev/appendix_10_commentary.pdf
To summarise:
Catholics use one meaning of “pray” when addressing Mary and a different meaning when addressing God.
So Catholics do pray to Mary in one sense of “pray” (parakaleo)
Catholics don’t pray to Mary in another sense of “pray” (proseuchomai)
Earlier, (I think in this thread) I said:
Catholic pray to Mary
Catholics do not pray to Mary
Both these statements are true.
The difference is resolved by understanding the different uses of the word “pray”.
Consider the etymology of the word:
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.(from the Online Etymology Dictionary)
So pray means, at its root, ask earnestly, entreat, beg, request.
If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray”.
Take these extracts from that great English writer, Jane Austen
“But pray, Colonel, how came you to conjure out that I should be in town today?” (Mrs Jennings to Colonel Brandon in Sense and Sensibility)
"Oh! cousin, stop a moment, pray stop!" (Fanny Price to Edmund in Mansfield Park)
Scripture itself uses the word pray in this manner:
Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. (Acts 24:4 - KJV)
Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health (Acts 27:34 - KJV)
The Greek word translated pray here is parakaleo. According to a Greek dictionary this means:- ask, beg, implore, petition, pray, request, solicit, urge, woo
A different Greek word is used here:
I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours, (John 17:9).
The Greek word we translate as pray comes from the Greek erotao which means: ask, query, question.
This is the same word that Jesus uses in his parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31). At one point the rich man (now in hell) says to Abraham "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house" (vs 27). Pray here is eroto.
And here is another one:
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? (Acts 8:34)
The Greek word here is deomai (G1189) meaning to beg, petition, beseech, make request
So to summarise so far, to use "pray" for "ask" is scriptural and it is in this sense that Catholics pray to Mary. They are asking her for her prayers for us.
Praying to God
Another word that is used in the NT is proseuchomai as when Jesus says: But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret (Mt 6:6).
It is this word proseuchomai that is generally used for addressing God.
Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise because most protestants, who do not pray to Mary, do not understand this distinction and assume that Catholics pray to Mary in the same way that they pray to God.
Spirit & Truth Fellowship International (not Catholic) say about proseuchomai & parakaleo:
The Greek verb proseuchomai (#4336 proseu,comai) and its noun form proseuche (#4335 proseuch,), like euchomai and euche, denote prayer in the more general sense. This means the content of the prayer may include various specific requests (aitema), supplications (deēsis), intercessions (enteuxis), etc. However proseuchomai and proseuche are only used as prayer to God (the prefix pros means towards)—whereas euchomai and deēsis are not restricted in this way (Trench, Synonyms). It generally “seems to indicate not so much the contents of the prayer as its end and aim” (Thayer).
The Greek verb parakaleō (#3870 parakale,w) and its noun form paraklēsis (#3874 para,klhsij) have a very wide range of meaning. Further, they appear quite often in scripture (109 verb uses; 29 noun uses). The words’ basic meaning is to call to one’s side. “To call some one hither, that he may do something…to use persuasion with him” (Bullinger). The calling along can be meant to appeal or plead; encourage or urge; to comfort; summon or invite; only once is it applied to God and that by the Lord Jesus (Matt 26:53).
Their text on this lists many words Greek words that are translated as “pray” – euchomai, proseuchomai, erotao, aiteo, deomai, parakaleo, entynchano with explanations and examples in the NT.
See https://www.stfonline.org/pdf/rev/appendix_10_commentary.pdf
To summarise:
Catholics use one meaning of “pray” when addressing Mary and a different meaning when addressing God.
So Catholics do pray to Mary in one sense of “pray” (parakaleo)
Catholics don’t pray to Mary in another sense of “pray” (proseuchomai)
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R
This is the issue that Christians have though bede. We/you do not need to ask Mary for her prayers on behalf of our/your sins or problems. We can go straight to The Lord... Jesus said “Therefore when you pray, say; Our Father...” if we ask anything in Jesus’ name, He will grant it (within His will) Jesus was talking to His disciples, but this is for all of His followers. “We have an advocate with The Father, Jesus the righteous” The only way to The Father. 🙃
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It is not *Catholics* -- the adherents and members of the Catholic Church who are targeted. It is Roman Catholicism. A set of beliefs which are contrary to Scripture. And their condemnation is NOT unjust at all.
If someone were to ask you "Do you prefer truth to error?" the answer is obvious. No one prefers error over truth. On the other hand if you were asked "Why do you continue supporting a church which promotes and teaches error?" You would turn around and say "The Catholic Church is the only true Christian church" without examining it closely. And therein lies the problem. Roman Catholic have no desire to carefully examine their church's teaching in the light of Scripture. Indeed Scripture has become irrelevant.
Let's take the case of Maryolatry. There is not a single Scripture that elevates her to the position given by the RCC. Yet she is the prime focus of Catholics worldwide. Catholics use the greeting of Gabriel to Mary as evidence of Mary being elevated. But did the Lord and the apostles ask Christians to pray to Mary? And who made her Queen of Heaven?
If someone were to ask you "Do you prefer truth to error?" the answer is obvious. No one prefers error over truth. On the other hand if you were asked "Why do you continue supporting a church which promotes and teaches error?" You would turn around and say "The Catholic Church is the only true Christian church" without examining it closely. And therein lies the problem. Roman Catholic have no desire to carefully examine their church's teaching in the light of Scripture. Indeed Scripture has become irrelevant.
Let's take the case of Maryolatry. There is not a single Scripture that elevates her to the position given by the RCC. Yet she is the prime focus of Catholics worldwide. Catholics use the greeting of Gabriel to Mary as evidence of Mary being elevated. But did the Lord and the apostles ask Christians to pray to Mary? And who made her Queen of Heaven?
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R
In the Roman catholic faith, it’s not like she’s the queen of heaven, but someone holy/sanctified who is easier to pray/relate to because The Lord is way above humanity, like unreachable. It’s like it’s such a fearful thing to go directly to Him. I struggled to pray to The Lord at first because were not worthy, (but now realise that Jesus is) The Lord is that holy, like when Moses had to take his sandals off and hide in the rock...So she is seen as an intercessor out of respect for a Holy G_d. If that makes any sense. It’s not a deliberate act of rebellion, even though it appears that way. But it is a religious deception, that catholics need deliverance from 🙏
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Your explanation is weak, to say the least. You're trying to make your case using a 400-year-old translation instead of a modern translation. You're ignoring the relevant biblical facts that no apostle taught or even hinted that living Christians should talk to dead Christians instead of directly to God, and that there is one mediator between men and God, the man Jesus Christ. Finally, you're using the fallacy of equivocation, pretending that prayer to Mary is fundamentally different than prayer to God.
If, as you claim, Catholics understand that prayer to Mary is different, then they should also understand that it is both a complete waste of their time and effort, and that if it is not blatant idolatry, it is very close to it.
If, as you claim, Catholics understand that prayer to Mary is different, then they should also understand that it is both a complete waste of their time and effort, and that if it is not blatant idolatry, it is very close to it.
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B
WOW! What a lot of objections.
I'll try and work through them.
Here is the first
We are part of the Body of Christ. We all should be caring for others.
Do you not ask others to pray for you?
Do you not pray for others?
Paul asked others to pray for him:
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20)
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Paul urged Timothy to pray for others (1Tim 2:1-2)
There is a whole section on this forum for prayer requests.
I'll try and work through them.
Here is the first
We are part of the Body of Christ. We all should be caring for others.
Do you not ask others to pray for you?
Do you not pray for others?
Paul asked others to pray for him:
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20)
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Paul urged Timothy to pray for others (1Tim 2:1-2)
There is a whole section on this forum for prayer requests.
B
I have said this before:
No Catholic doctrine (properly undertood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted).
Utterly untrue.
There is no Maryolotry.
Anyone who made Mary an idol of worship would be committing a grave sin.
Mary is not the prime focus of Catholics worldwide. But then you provide no evidence for such an absurd claim.
B
Those in heaven are outside of time. There is no past or present by their perception, just one great present. They are not limited by time in the way we are. They are not omniscient but we believe that it is by God’s will that they are allowed to hear our prayers to them.
We know that those in heaven can hear our prayers and present them to God
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)
If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
We know that those in heaven can hear our prayers and present them to God
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)
If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
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