The truth about tongues: a DIVISIVE force in Christianity today

[garee]

The Corinthians had the "gift" of tongues and they were misusing it greatly. That's why Paul had to correct them.

They had the gift of making noises without meaning and mocking the spirit of judgement . There simply is no such thing as a "sign gift". "filler up I did it. Its marvelous.

Like for instance .Do something Jesus then we will believe something (mockery ) Sings and wonders are for those who rebel against prophecy . The evil generation .(no faith) just a whole lot of noise.

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

Spiritual gift yes working from within .Edifying the unseen Spirit.

Our new born again tongue prophecy "the gospel" as the power we have in us it can drive out the idea of senseless sounds . Saw lasaw saw lasaw. Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw. Ze’er sham ze’er sham.

So God will use this "strange way" of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.” But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be "senseless sounds" to them:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”

When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured. Isaiah 28

 

[garee]

I agree, Of men AND of angels puts tongues as the language of the angels.

Yes the language of prophecy sent by his prophets . All sent ones "apostles" are messengers (angel).

 

[KJV1611]

Yes the language of prophecy sent by his prophets . All sent ones "apostles" are messengers (angel).

No Garee the prophets were MEN, they were not angelic beings. Tongues is the language of ANGELIC RELM beings.

 

[KJV1611]

Charismatic tongues speakers, look at the language the angels spoke when they spoke to men in the Bible. Was their language incomprehensible gibberish speech? Or was their language always steeped in symbolism?

 

[Kavik]

Actually modern tongues have been closely examined by many and they know that they are not human languages. Here us some evidence:

• Modern anthropologists have for many years studied the modern tongues phenomena and found it present in many different religions and cultures around the world. They found that not only do some Christians practice modern tongues, so do cults, churches and groups teaching false doctrine and many pagan religions. Dr. Shelia A. Womack, found similarities between that modern speaking in tongues, [and] the Tourette Syndrome. The Trouette syndrome (TS) is an inherited disorder of the nervous system, characterized by a variable expression of unwanted movements and noises. 1
  These anthropologists and linguists have recorded and studied extensively modern tongue speaking. They report that not once have they found that what the tongues speaker was speaking was any language. They further have found the phenomena is the same in all the groups, Christians, and non Christians alike. Certainly, a Christian would have to admit that God would not be giving the gift of tongues to unbelievers and pagans. What these researched heard and identified was simply vowels spoken without relation to an actual word. It is gibberish sounds similar to what children make before the learn to speak a language. Their conclusion is that it appears to be psychologically induced phenomena and quark of the mind.
  Linguists Eugene A. Nida, in the 1960's in his studies provided detailed reasons why modern glossolalia could not be a human language. Further W. A. Wolfram in his studies concluded in 1966 that glossolalia did not have the basic elements of human language. 2
  Felicitas D. Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, engaged in a study of various English, Spanish, and Mayan speaking Pentecostal communities in the United States and Mexico made the following observations,
  • " She compared tape recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan as well. She published her results in 1972 in an extensive monograph (Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia by Felecitas D. Goodman, University of Chicago Press, 1972).
    Goodman concludes that "when all features of glossolalia were taken into consideration-- that is, the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and its suprasegmental elements (namely, rhythm, accent, and especially overall intonation)-- she concluded that there is no distinction in glossolalia between Christians and the followers of non-Christian (pagan) religions. The "association between trance and glossolalia is now accepted by many researchers as a correct assumption," writes Goodman in the prestigious Encyclopedia of Religion (1987).
    Goodman also concludes that glossolalia "is, actually, a learned behavior, learned either unawarely or, sometimes consciously." Others have previously pointed out that direct instruction is given on how to "speak in tongues," ie. how to engage in glossolalia." 3
  • 
    
  • https://www.bible-truth.org/TonguesWhatisGoingOn.html
    

To the list you can also add linguist William Samarin and anthropologist Felicitas Goodman. Both did a considerable amount of work with modern tongues=speech.

 

[garee]

The Assemblies of God has excellent seminaries and also Global University which is being used world wide and producing excellently trained theologians offering Masters and Doctorate degrees. I am using the Global University and I am on track for three years of Greek before I complete my requirements. Some other pentecostal theologians you will probably run across in bibliographies are William and Robert Menzies, Stanley Horton, Robert Stronstad. There are others and more and more as the pentecostal movement continues to grow world wide. Robert Stronstad is a giant and I have been very impressed with his works on Lucan Pneumatology.

Scribe speak... Producing excellently trained theologians offering Masters and Doctorate degrees.

Garee speak. . What would seeking the approval of men have to do with rightly dividing the word of God? Saul had those credentials and went around as a serial killer a false zeal for knowing our father in heaven .

Faith comes from hearing words that give understanding. Faith would seem to be shrinking in exchange for a fill ups that causes a person to wonder rather than believing prophecy .

Scribe speak....What were those wonderful noises I made?

On the last day will our Father in heaven find faith or men being slain in the spirit. The gospel of signs and wonders ?

Not what does Robert Stronstad the giant say. But what the the holy spirt infrom us?

 

[Dino246]

The Spirit of Christ was not "picking" on the unbelieving Jews anymore than the unbelieving gentile but speaks to the whole of mankind. God is no respecter of corrupted flesh . No division .

Jesus addressed or spoke about the unbelieving Jews many times, but He spoke about unbelieving gentiles very rarely.

Exactly Christians do not lack faith .Its those who do not beleive prophecy in any language. Not all Jews are atheist's

None of the Jews were atheists. I have told you that your understanding of 'atheist' is incorrect, but as usual, you refuse to learn.

 

[garee]

garee-speak

.........

 

[Dino246]

Charismatic tongues speakers, look at the language the angels spoke when they spoke to men in the Bible. Was their language incomprehensible gibberish speech? Or was their language always steeped in symbolism?

Neither.

 

[KJV1611]

Neither.

Straight forward easy to understand language?

 

[Dino246]

Straight forward easy to understand language?

Yes...

Genesis 19:12-22 straightforward, easy-to-understand language.
Judges 13:3-5 straightforward, easy-to-understand language.
Daniel 9:24-27 straightforward, easy-to-understand language (though humans try desperately to complicate it).
Matthew 1:20-23 straightforward, easy-to-understand language.
Luke 1:30-33 straightforward, easy-to-understand language.

 

[garee]

Jesus addressed or spoke about the unbelieving Jews many times, but He spoke about unbelieving gentiles very rarely.


None of the Jews were atheists. I have told you that your understanding of 'atheist' is incorrect, but as usual, you refuse to learn.

What percentage?

God is not respecter of person .He did not say I will check the birth certificates or DNA testing.. He can use a unbeliever to bring the gospel just as well as one who does have faith. He is not served by the corrupted flesh and blood of any nation.

That's a human idea .The kind that shows men have no faith but look to perform that which comes naturally .Out of sight out of mind. Plow em under like Cain with our brother in the Lord, Abel . The first recorded martyr, apostles sent with the gospel, prophecy the tongue of God.

Jesus purposely hid the spiritual meaning in parables to show the outcome of unbelief working in the heart of mankind.

He sent them to the house of Israel the born again ones (not all Israel are born again ) The father renamed her Christians, a more befitting name to represents all the nations (one bride one gospel ).. They thought he was confused and demanded fire come down .Out of sight out of mind the wrong manner of spirit.

Luke 89: 52-55 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what "manner of spirit" ye are of.

 

[garee]

Straight forward easy to understand language?

Easy to wonder, marvel ?

But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds to them:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”

When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured. Isiah 28: 13

 

[KJV1611]

Yes...

Genesis 19:12-22 straightforward, easy-to-understand language.
Judges 13:3-5 straightforward, easy-to-understand language.
Daniel 9:24-27 straightforward, easy-to-understand language (though humans try desperately to complicate it).
Matthew 1:20-23 straightforward, easy-to-understand language.
Luke 1:30-33 straightforward, easy-to-understand language.

This is more what I had in mind.


Zec 5:5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.
Zec 5:6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth.
Zec 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
Zec 5:8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
Zec 5:9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
Zec 5:10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
Zec 5:11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

 

[KJV1611]

Easy to wonder, marvel ?

But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds to them:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”

When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured. Isiah 28: 13

Dino is right, there are times when the angels spoke in earthly languages instead of the tongue of angels. These were times when it was imperative that the person they were speaking to understood exactly what was being said.

At other times the angels spoke in the unknown tongue, especially when prophecy is involved.

 

[Kavik]

I’m dead serious. I believe it was added to bring more clarity to tongues so that we wouldn’t be deceived by the charasmaniac tongues babblers.

Why do you think it was added?

The phrase unknown tongues, of the English Bible has a tradition that dates back to the earliest days of the Reformation. Most Charismatic and Pentecostal Christians are unaware of the history of the addition of “unknown” to ‘tongues’ and its Reformation roots. Rather, they believe the English reflects Paul’s intentions.

The creation of this idiom had powerful political and religious overtones. It was a “jab”, so-to-speak, by the early Protestants at the RCC.

It is an idiom the early Protestants created and aimed exclusively at the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church asserted its authority through the exclusive use of Latin while the Protestants volleyed back that Latin was speaking in an “unknown tongue” that no one understood. Unknown to the word tongues was added in Paul’s famous Corinthian text to win the Reformation argument.

The idiom unknown tongues became a popular doctrine in 1534 as a dispute against the Catholic Church. It was a strong statement that anything said in Latin, and not the local vernacular was not profitable.

It is important to note that this idiom initially had no suggestion whatsoever of a mystical or supernatural sense that Pentecostals and Charismatics attach to it today.

Pentecostals however relied heavily on their interpretation of unknown tongues to justify and Biblically ‘evidence’ the modern tongues-speaking experience.

In short, “unknown” in conjunction with ‘tongues’ was added by he early Protestants as a strong anti-Catholic statement, nothing more.

As an aside, it is interesting to note that the Wyclif Bible, the earliest known English translation published in 1380, does not contain the adjective “unknown” at all. It also predominately used the word langagis (languages) instead of tongues in the key-texts, evidencing the change in usage of the English word over time. By the time the KJV was written, “tongues” had superseded “languages” as the common every-day word. By the 1900’s, the situation reversed itself and ‘languages’ once again, for the most part, replaced the now archaic “tongues”.

 

[Kavik]

So your saying that the tongue of angels is just another earthly language?

And @ Lucy Pevensie

“Tongues of angels” is frequently used as a vehicle to posit ‘angelic speech’.

That entire phrase, as well as a few others in that particular part of Paul’s letter, is 100% pure textbook hyperbole no matter how one wishes to slice and dice it. There’s just no getting around that.

One of the things that is important to note about the grammar is that, in the Greek, it literally reads: “If with the tongues of men I speak and of angels.” That construction is unique and occurs only here in the New Testament. The grammar suggests that Paul intentionally separated the tongues of men from the tongues of angels, articulating the normal expression of the gift of foreign languages before emphatically inserting a hypothetical hyperbole. This pattern is seen in Paul’s subsequent examples as well.

In all instances of angels speaking, it has always been in a real, rational language. In fact, in traditional Jewish belief, angels can only speak and understand one language; specifically, the sacred language of the Jewish faith, Hebrew. Paul, being a Jew, would have known this.

When the grammatical and contextual evidence is considered, the “tongues of angels” simply does not provide Biblical support for a non-human form of language.

 

[Dino246]

This is more what I had in mind.


Zec 5:5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.
Zec 5:6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth.
Zec 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
Zec 5:8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
Zec 5:9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
Zec 5:10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
Zec 5:11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

Yes, and I have demonstrated that angels communicate in plain language. It's not an either-or proposition, as you implied.

 

[Dino246]

What percentage?

Of what? I said nothing about a percentage. I said, "None".

God is not respecter of person .He did not say I will check the birth certificates or DNA testing.. He can use a unbeliever to bring the gospel just as well as one who does have faith. He is not served by the corrupted flesh and blood of any nation.

That's a human idea .

Jesus was sent to ethnic Israel. That's plain in the gospels. If you conflate the modern church with 1st century Israel, you're going to make more errors.

The kind that shows men have no faith but look to perform that which comes naturally .Out of sight out of mind. Plow em under like Cain with our brother in the Lord, Abel . The first recorded martyr, apostles sent with the gospel, prophecy the tongue of God.

Blah blah blah. Irrelevant.

Jesus purposely hid the spiritual meaning in parables to show the outcome of unbelief working in the heart of mankind.

No, He hid the meaning because they did not have faith, not to show the outcome of unbelief.

He sent them to the house of Israel the born again ones (not all Israel are born again )

No He didn't. He sent them to the descendents of Abraham, Jews after the flesh. Some of the Jews become born again through faith in Jesus.

The father renamed her Christians, a more befitting name to represents all the nations (one bride one gospel ).. They thought he was confused and demanded fire come down .Out of sight out of mind the wrong manner of spirit.

Blah blah blah. Irrelevant.

 

[garee]

Dino is right, there are times when the angels spoke in earthly languages instead of the tongue of angels. These were times when it was imperative that the person they were speaking to understood exactly what was being said.

At other times the angels spoke in the unknown tongue, especially when prophecy is involved.

That's common. I at one time held to that idea. I am not trying to be different or make any kind of name to fame. That's for the scholars.

Angel have no language of their own . They are sent with words not coming from their mind but revealing the mind of another.

One thing I have noticed is the unseen father seems to disappear in the work of salvation .Its a joint work of two working to together as one. The father sending his apostle Jesus as a messenger for God. Not doing the will of his corrupted flesh and blood. Having the power in his body of death but not of Him

I would offer. No such thing as angel voice in that way. Apostles are angels as messenger of God. Like Jesus the apostle he was sent with words from the father they bring clear understanding. Can't be strengthened with nothing, wonders.. ???

Speaking in tongue of angels and men . It is simply prophecy of Gods (Wisdom) and that of men's (wisdom ).

They must be mixed with faith that works in us, with us, strengthening us making our burden lighter .

The temporal seen "wisdom of men" mixed with the unseen "wisdom of God" hid in the parables .

Then according to Hebrews 4:1-4 we can be assured we have heard the voice of prophecy. The gospel of our salvation. .

Unlike those who have no faith they have nothing to mix with.

God is not a author of confusion . Its not the unknow tongue of angel "senseless sounds" and words of men . How could that kind of wisdom bring glory to our God not seen? It makes no sense to me. (no sign gifts.)

We walk by faith not after what the eyes or the fleshly wondering mind . 1 John 2:16 informs us they are not of our Holy father in heaven

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Paraphrased. I would offer. If I speak with the language of men's wisdom and mix it with the wisdom of prophecy and have not love. Then a person will be like them in Mathew 7 . I never knew you worker of iniquity. . . robbing the our Holy Father in heaven of His glory . the context of the whole chapter written as a parables is love . not confusion of the unknowns that cause a person to wonder.

The cause of the fall in the garden . You shall not die look at me flesh and blood and live.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Hebrews 4;1-4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.