Not By Works
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It would be a good idea for you to keep reading beyond Romans 7! Romans 8:1-17 says...
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires [you]; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba" Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires [you]; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba" Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
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There are some sins we are tempted to and other sins not. As you said. So the sins that are the problem are the ones we do, as I said. I never implied anyone can resist all sin.
Now let’s talk about the Christian who yields to the HS in his/her life. This person is not focused on eternity per se but wants instead to grow in their relationship with the Lord here. This is the christian we need to compare to atheists.
This Christian grows in caring about those around him not merely his own interests. He sees others as valuable in God’s eyes. He life’s purpose is to bring the love of God to the world not merely have a. nice life. As he yields to the HS, he will find he has grace to avoid sins that used to ensnare him.
The atheist does not have an awareness of sin many times let alone grace to defeat it. This shows in behavior and character with the years especially. But otherwise it’s hard to compare whole groups as individuals are different. Nevertheless the Christians tend to be kinder and less focused on material pursuits.
Did you want something more or different?
Now let’s talk about the Christian who yields to the HS in his/her life. This person is not focused on eternity per se but wants instead to grow in their relationship with the Lord here. This is the christian we need to compare to atheists.
This Christian grows in caring about those around him not merely his own interests. He sees others as valuable in God’s eyes. He life’s purpose is to bring the love of God to the world not merely have a. nice life. As he yields to the HS, he will find he has grace to avoid sins that used to ensnare him.
The atheist does not have an awareness of sin many times let alone grace to defeat it. This shows in behavior and character with the years especially. But otherwise it’s hard to compare whole groups as individuals are different. Nevertheless the Christians tend to be kinder and less focused on material pursuits.
Did you want something more or different?
"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
these are all qualities of the heart & mind, not particular actions or specific works.
these aren't things like, does she smoke or drink, does she have tattoos, does she cuss, where does she go and what does she eat or wear and who does she talk to.
they are character traits, not habits. that's what i'm trying to get at.
these are all qualities of the heart & mind, not particular actions or specific works.
these aren't things like, does she smoke or drink, does she have tattoos, does she cuss, where does she go and what does she eat or wear and who does she talk to.
they are character traits, not habits. that's what i'm trying to get at.
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If you think you cannot see whether a person loves or hates you, is kind or mean, has self-control or none, I don’t know what to say. It’s plain as day to me, but if you insist theyre hidden from all but God, well, I won’t be able to convince you.
The fruit is fairly useless then since no man sees it let alone benefits from it. Wonder why Jesus told us to judge a tree by fruit we cannot possibly see if you’re right.
The fruit is fairly useless then since no man sees it let alone benefits from it. Wonder why Jesus told us to judge a tree by fruit we cannot possibly see if you’re right.
how about the Dalai Lama?
he's regarded as living righteously. he's even regarded as being of good character, gentle, kind, patient and loving.
but does he confess Christ came in the flesh?
so what is ultimately the thing that condemns or excuses a soul? a property of physical behaviour or a question of belief in the heart and mind?
he's regarded as living righteously. he's even regarded as being of good character, gentle, kind, patient and loving.
but does he confess Christ came in the flesh?
so what is ultimately the thing that condemns or excuses a soul? a property of physical behaviour or a question of belief in the heart and mind?
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sometimes you can't.
what if a person won't speak to you -- is it because he despises you or because he is sparing you? is he just too busy with various cares of his life? does he think you are not worth his time, or does he not want to say something without devoting an amount of time that he can't presently spare? do you know if he is praying for you or not, if he doesn't say?
but my premise is not about "how can we judge one another" -- not at all. it is about salvation being a thing that which has to do with ones heart, in their mind, and the presence of a spirit within them. that is not an outward, but an inward thing. salvation is not of works, preventing anyone from boasting - it is of grace through faith. faith resides inside a person, and yes, it exhibits itself through actions - but the person without faith may exhibit the very same actions, even to a greater degree. so if we would 'judge' someone it isn't their actions but their heart which is pertinent to the measure. the heart and the hands & feet do not always align with each other, sometimes not even the mouth: we all understand a word called "regret"
i am still talking about Romans 7. how it is the consequence of Romans 6 and how it, along with Romans 1-5, leads to the conclusion of Romans 8.
i am saying these things to you because it is pertinent to whether our hope in Christ is a firm foundation. if my hope is in my outward behaviour we have a much different scenario than if my hope is in the Lord regenerating me. one is from the outside-in, and the other is from the inside-out, and both include a facet of "time" as the 'working in' and the 'working out' from either direction isn't instantaneous, but progressive.
this all leads to a question of whether salvation is instantaneous or not -- is there a 'salvation by degrees' ? can you be 'mostly saved' or 'a little bit saved' ?
sorry if i seem like i'm being disjointed or cryptic. i didn't want to just write 5,000 words of assumed conversation, but i do have a sort of outline where i want to lead conversation through.
what if a person won't speak to you -- is it because he despises you or because he is sparing you? is he just too busy with various cares of his life? does he think you are not worth his time, or does he not want to say something without devoting an amount of time that he can't presently spare? do you know if he is praying for you or not, if he doesn't say?
but my premise is not about "how can we judge one another" -- not at all. it is about salvation being a thing that which has to do with ones heart, in their mind, and the presence of a spirit within them. that is not an outward, but an inward thing. salvation is not of works, preventing anyone from boasting - it is of grace through faith. faith resides inside a person, and yes, it exhibits itself through actions - but the person without faith may exhibit the very same actions, even to a greater degree. so if we would 'judge' someone it isn't their actions but their heart which is pertinent to the measure. the heart and the hands & feet do not always align with each other, sometimes not even the mouth: we all understand a word called "regret"
i am still talking about Romans 7. how it is the consequence of Romans 6 and how it, along with Romans 1-5, leads to the conclusion of Romans 8.
i am saying these things to you because it is pertinent to whether our hope in Christ is a firm foundation. if my hope is in my outward behaviour we have a much different scenario than if my hope is in the Lord regenerating me. one is from the outside-in, and the other is from the inside-out, and both include a facet of "time" as the 'working in' and the 'working out' from either direction isn't instantaneous, but progressive.
this all leads to a question of whether salvation is instantaneous or not -- is there a 'salvation by degrees' ? can you be 'mostly saved' or 'a little bit saved' ?
sorry if i seem like i'm being disjointed or cryptic. i didn't want to just write 5,000 words of assumed conversation, but i do have a sort of outline where i want to lead conversation through.
i don't understand what you mean by this comment.
it is likely that i know more about Buddhism than you suspect - but i am using a man well renowned the world over for moral behaviour and goodness of character as an example to ask whether it is right behavior and right attitude which saves a person, or is it the answer to this question:
it is likely that i know more about Buddhism than you suspect - but i am using a man well renowned the world over for moral behaviour and goodness of character as an example to ask whether it is right behavior and right attitude which saves a person, or is it the answer to this question:
I AM The Resurrection, and The Life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(John 11:25-26)
(John 11:25-26)
?
Jaybo, I am not sure you where you are coming from. I am a 71 year old, born again OSAS genuine Believer, that attends the a Non-Denomininational, evangelical style of Church. Like I said, at my age, I will go to the grave fully believing OSAS Theology. I thought I was answering a post that Micaiah-imla wrote. So when I got done I was surprised to see your name up top.
Will go through it and edit were it needs to be, but understand, it may be little off, because I do not know what you actually Believe in, or your Doctrinal Statement of Faith.
If you are SAYING the Adoption as Sons, over rides Sinful Nature of the Flesh entirely, I will disagree with you. Yes, the spiritual nature of the Born Again Human Spirit; will DOMINATE, especially as we spiritually mature, but the Sin Nature. Now Micaiah-imla want to believe that HE or SHE CEASED TO SIN, which is absolutely UNTRUE. That verse is the Controlling influence is the Spiritual Nature, but the Sin Nature is still alive and will poke it's head up once in a while, but it is not DOMINANT.
Just to be sure you know where I am coming from, READ this short post I made a couple days ago: #143,069
NOW, do me a FAVOR, get a BIG Hammer, set your LEFT THUMB on the Kitchen Counter. With the Hammer in your Right Hand, HIT your Left Thumb as HARD AS YOU CAN. IF IT HURTS, THEN YOU CAN BE SURE YOU ARE STILL IN THE FLESH, though it is not dominant.
The spiritual nature, does not make the flesh go away, you will have to deal with sin nature as long as you live. The Flesh will not be PERFECT until we get that Glorified Body in the Resurrection.
THAT in the red above that you posted, is the SIN NATURE THAT WEAKENS YOU. So in the Spiritual Nature, we have a CHARACTERISTIC, that WILL WANT CONFESS EACH AND EVERY SIN THAT WE FIND IN OUR LIVES. It is second nature of our Human Spirit, to automatically want to CONFESS those sins as LONG as we are alive. YES JESUS PAID THE PRICE, but it is our spiritual nature to confess sin. Yes we are LEAD by the SPIRIT, does not mean that we don't SIN. The SIN NATURE IS STILL IN THIS BODY OF DEATH, Rom. 7:24-25. What do you think PAUL MEANT by that EXPRESSION? Surely YOU don't mean YOU never need to Confess Sin AGAIN ? ? ?
1 John 1:9 (HCSB)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
That Verb CONFESS is in the Present Tense, which is not like ENGLISH PRESENT TENSE. IT IMPLIES A LIFESTYLE CONTROLLED BY THE Born Again HUMAN SPIRIT, that will confess each and every new sin we find in our lives. That is the true nature of the Born Again.
Does that mean YOU QUIT searching for SIN in your life, which is part of the Sanctification Process?
Are you Sure you are even BORN AGAIN? Everyone of us OSAS, KNOWS we have a SIN NATURE, and wheb we discover one, we should immediately confess it to GOD. If you do not feel the GUILT of SIN, has your religious false beliefs anesthetize your guilt to were you never feel it again ? ? ?
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I didn’t think you were disjointed or cryptic. I thought you expressed your thought quite well. I am not at all sure I can equally well communicate to you my position which is a different kind of walk with God. So many here on this discussion are quite fixed on salvation as the end goal and cannot understand or even believe that there is any other kind of mindset in the Christian faith.
When I talk of the Holy Spirit demanding behaviour that is pleasing to God in my life, they think I am working for salvation. I cannot get them to see the goal is BEYOND salvation as Paul expressed in Phil 3:10. Paul wrote of disciplining his body lest he fall short. Hebrews 12:15 warns us to take care lest we fall short of the grace of God. In the interest of brevity I won‘t list all the verses that tell us our part in walking with God but they are numerous.
The goal is not working for salvation or working to keep salvation. The goal is to walk humbly with God. Without holiness shall no man see God. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. The first commandment is to love God with all our being. This is a commandment and yet it is my goal and I know that He is not doing it all so that I am such so that He can walk with me as I desire.
I was saved many decades ago and I have never doubted that since I knew what it was. Never. But I was early on filled with desire to know Him. This requires obedience. There is no other way. One can be saved and not know Him, certainly. Being saved does not require knowing Him but for Him, it was always His desire. Early on, in the first years, I pressed on to this upward call of God forgetting things in the past (salvation) and moving on. This is why I have learned obedience though things I suffered and I have gained that which I desired in a satisfactory way that I did not think possible when I started the journey.
So if you want me to answer questions on salvation, I am more inclined to encourage a believer to desire to know Him rather than stay in the baby phase of being merely saved from hell and sin. Why wonder if the quality of the milk is being maintained by God or man when there is meat waiting for the man or woman prepared to do what it takes to be served some?
But I speak from over 40 years of Him regenerating me because I cooperated. DId I do it? No. Did He do it all for me? No. Am I working for salvation? Not at all. I am working so that I am know Him and the fellowship of his sufferings which I have also tasted in part, the part He chose for me. I do not hope He will regenerate me, He has done so and I walk with Him to the degree I desire.
So hope for His regenerating and by no means try a do it yourself. But when the Holy SPirit knocks on the door of your heart, respond and let Him in to correct and guide and teach you. When he demands you forgive others, do so. When He demands you give, do so. When he demands you humble yourself before people, do so. Do you see being the willing student of the Holy Spirit is not anything you can ever boast of? None of the above responses to the Holy Spirit generate pride. Just the opposite.
This is a long post and I apologize for that. Some think I hardly ever quote scripture but if a man knows the Bible, he will see the scripture woven into the text in a natural way instead of copy, paste with blinking lights so that one has it woven into the thinking and not in a category of its own.
All the best,
Dottie
When I talk of the Holy Spirit demanding behaviour that is pleasing to God in my life, they think I am working for salvation. I cannot get them to see the goal is BEYOND salvation as Paul expressed in Phil 3:10. Paul wrote of disciplining his body lest he fall short. Hebrews 12:15 warns us to take care lest we fall short of the grace of God. In the interest of brevity I won‘t list all the verses that tell us our part in walking with God but they are numerous.
The goal is not working for salvation or working to keep salvation. The goal is to walk humbly with God. Without holiness shall no man see God. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. The first commandment is to love God with all our being. This is a commandment and yet it is my goal and I know that He is not doing it all so that I am such so that He can walk with me as I desire.
I was saved many decades ago and I have never doubted that since I knew what it was. Never. But I was early on filled with desire to know Him. This requires obedience. There is no other way. One can be saved and not know Him, certainly. Being saved does not require knowing Him but for Him, it was always His desire. Early on, in the first years, I pressed on to this upward call of God forgetting things in the past (salvation) and moving on. This is why I have learned obedience though things I suffered and I have gained that which I desired in a satisfactory way that I did not think possible when I started the journey.
So if you want me to answer questions on salvation, I am more inclined to encourage a believer to desire to know Him rather than stay in the baby phase of being merely saved from hell and sin. Why wonder if the quality of the milk is being maintained by God or man when there is meat waiting for the man or woman prepared to do what it takes to be served some?
But I speak from over 40 years of Him regenerating me because I cooperated. DId I do it? No. Did He do it all for me? No. Am I working for salvation? Not at all. I am working so that I am know Him and the fellowship of his sufferings which I have also tasted in part, the part He chose for me. I do not hope He will regenerate me, He has done so and I walk with Him to the degree I desire.
So hope for His regenerating and by no means try a do it yourself. But when the Holy SPirit knocks on the door of your heart, respond and let Him in to correct and guide and teach you. When he demands you forgive others, do so. When He demands you give, do so. When he demands you humble yourself before people, do so. Do you see being the willing student of the Holy Spirit is not anything you can ever boast of? None of the above responses to the Holy Spirit generate pride. Just the opposite.
This is a long post and I apologize for that. Some think I hardly ever quote scripture but if a man knows the Bible, he will see the scripture woven into the text in a natural way instead of copy, paste with blinking lights so that one has it woven into the thinking and not in a category of its own.
All the best,
Dottie
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How do you know he has moral goodness? I was in a Buddist country and saw these „holy men“ walking around doing their religious thing in peace and harmony while the city they walked around it is the world capital in child prostitution. Their „holiness“ did not move them one iota to turn over the money tables of those abusing young girls. And the point of Buddism is to remove from a man all feelings include that of concern for others so they were living out the tenets of their faith. They walked peacefully by the sufferings of others.
Moral goodness is seen when a person makes a difficult choice because it is morally good even thought it cost them something. That is moral goodness. Talking to world leaders being wined and dined by them is not moral goodness. Having peace because you care nothing for the sufferings of others is not moral goodness.
Moral goodness is seen when a person makes a difficult choice because it is morally good even thought it cost them something. That is moral goodness. Talking to world leaders being wined and dined by them is not moral goodness. Having peace because you care nothing for the sufferings of others is not moral goodness.
When a person is first saved, repenting and being forgiven and believing (not necessarily i that order) are all that is necessary. One did not work to be forgiveness and know salvation and deciding to do works will not add to that. But the rest of one‘s life one will make choices that are works one way or another. One does not go through life doing no works at all or one has noting to eat, wear, no friends and so on. One will do works if one wants to life and one does more works if one wants to live well. It is a fact.
So we can decide to let the Holy Spirit teach us the works that God wants us to do, or we can refuse and do our own thing since his works are more difficult and costly than our own desires many times. If we go through our lives never doing what He wanted beyond salvation, what were we saved from in the first place? Jesus came to save us from sin, not hell.
The problem is teaching that works that please God are unnecessary, then believers will not be encoragedto do them. So we are left doing works that please us most of the time unless what pleases God happens to please us as well now and again. Those who might timidly step out and do something that pleases God might be criticized as living „works salvation“ when it is really „pleasing God works“ and not for salvation at all. That a believer might want to please God is often discouraged on threads like this and I am sorry for those young believers who step out to do something for God and are told they are engaging in „works salvation“ which is calling Christ a liar. So they are discouraged from working to please God at all.
So we can decide to let the Holy Spirit teach us the works that God wants us to do, or we can refuse and do our own thing since his works are more difficult and costly than our own desires many times. If we go through our lives never doing what He wanted beyond salvation, what were we saved from in the first place? Jesus came to save us from sin, not hell.
The problem is teaching that works that please God are unnecessary, then believers will not be encoragedto do them. So we are left doing works that please us most of the time unless what pleases God happens to please us as well now and again. Those who might timidly step out and do something that pleases God might be criticized as living „works salvation“ when it is really „pleasing God works“ and not for salvation at all. That a believer might want to please God is often discouraged on threads like this and I am sorry for those young believers who step out to do something for God and are told they are engaging in „works salvation“ which is calling Christ a liar. So they are discouraged from working to please God at all.
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