Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

Do tell
do tell how a person who is drownimg told they can in lack of faith they can continue to struggle and try to save themselves and the rescuer will allow to, or they can stop,trying to save themselves and allow the rescuer to do all the work. How they merited salvation by stopping the attempt to save self and completely trusted the rescuer to save them?

can you explain this to me?

once again as always your so called charts or whatever they are, do not cover all bases.

We know from drowning experiences that the person has to stop struggling in order to be saved. Good post EG!

 

[Fastfredy0]

it is the work of god I believed in him, he drew me, he convicted me, he offered it tome, all I did was say yes, if I can boast in god saving me from eternal death simply because I did not tell him no, then something is seriously wrong

Well said.

there is zero % my righteousness

again, how can a person who completely trusted a savior boast of saving himself?

Well, I could be wrong, but your posts indicated that you had a choice to believe (have salvific faith) or not believe. Your posts indicated that you decided to believe in God to some degree via your own power (free will) independent of God. Thus, your salvation is not 100% of God's making, but a co-operative effort. Thus you can boast as, via your understanding of salvation, you did something to be saved. I grant you humbly deny it and give God all the credit.
I will go at it another way to clear the air.

First way:
Why are you saved and the guy down the street is not?
My answer: Because God changed my heart to cause me to have faith. ...not a work as I did nothing but exercise His gift
Your answer (IMO): Because God presented me with with a choice and I decided to believe (this is something you did and thus a WORK.)

Second way:
My answer: Regeneration by the Spirit logically precedes Faith (God gave me faith) ...not a work as I did nothing but exercise His gift
Your answer (IMO): Faith precedes regeneration (thus you are rewarded by regeneration for what you did (a WORK)

Third way:
My answer: Calvin's method of how we are saved
your answer (IMO): Arminian (SP?) method of how we are saved (thus you are rewarding by regeneration for what you did (a WORK)

Fourth way:
My answer: God picks who He will save with NO input from me ...not a work as I did nothing but exercise His gift
Your way (IMO): God looked into the future and saw I would chose to believe (this is something you did and thus a WORK.)

So, since the definition of work is SOMETHING YOU DO TO ACCOMPLISH A PURPOSE ... then 'your way' is a work by definition. Your way is something you did to accomplish a goal.
(apologies if I misrepresented YOUR WAY. YOUR WAY is pretty much standard amongst Libertarian Free Willers)

i am retired coast guard,, I have witness many a rescue of people who would die apart from trusting the one sent to save them

i have never heard them go boast of how they saved themselves, they gave 100% credit to their savior

My definition of God saving a drowning person: "Lord, I don't want to be saved. I love my life of sin. My father is the devil". But it is God who decides (Eph. 2:8-9, Phil 1:29, Romans 3:12, 1 Cor. 3:12, John 1:12-13, etc. etc.) God comes and changes the drowning man's heart. Now the man of his own desire says, "Lord, save me a sinner." God's answer, "I already have".
Your definition of God saving a drowning person: "Lord, thanks for throwing me a life jacket. Hmmm ... not sure I want it." God says, "If you don't reach out to the jacket you will drown". Your answer, "well, I think I will do my part and grab the life jacket so I can swim to shore". God's response, "I looked into the future so I knew you, with my help, would save yourself. Don't call your swimming a work though, it can be our secret."

 

[VCO]

it sounds like God has really blessed you.

i didn't mean it personally VCO, and you missed my point. :/

speaking in tongues (with interpreters ) :

have you been following that thread. it is pretty interesting to read. ☺

NOPE, I believe modern day Tongues is all counterfeit.

I only believe in TONGUES the way the DISCIPLES DID IT, for the Purpose that IS mentioned in the BIBLE.

Acts 2:5-11 (ESV)
5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. Dialektos - An earthly language so correct, that even the accent was all there.
7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
NO ECSTATIC UTTERANCES, just THEIR own Native Language so accurate, as if they grew across the street, speaking the mighty works of GOD.

Mark 16:20 (HCSB)
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.

1 Corinthians 1:22-23 (KJV)
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

So when there was enough JEWS who had seen the required sign, that the N.T. was equal the Word of GOD, as the O.T.; genuine tongues ceased, because the purpose was complete. Just like JESUS does not appear to every new believer to validate HIS Resurrection.

NO, I DO NOT WANT TO DEBATE IT, I HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT AT LEAST 101 TIMES IN THE PAST, AND I HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING NEW FROM YOUR SIDE IN AT LEAST 20 YEARS OR MORE.

 

[preacher4truth]

You cannot have Grace until you first Believe. And to Believe is an act, which is a works!

So grace is merited by believing? And therefore it's salvation by works? Got it! That and zero Scripture, just an exclamation point which must make it all true.

 

[stonesoffire]

I disagree

mere belief never saved anyone, it takes true living faith, true faith never dies unless the one the faith is laced in becomes unfaithful

so unless you think God is untrustworthy you must admit, faith (true living) would never be lost

now, if you think we must in our own power continue to believe, then is that not meriting salvation?

Experiencing Gods power in our life builds that seed gift of faith, and we begin to ask for greater “works”.

The builder and maker is the carpenter. 😉

 

[stonesoffire]

Does a NON-Believer have this justification?
Or someone who believes?

Potentially. If received.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: Give verses to substantiate this claim of faith by free will. Note: Not verses saying what we must do to be saved. We all know we must believe. BUT VERSES TELLING US WHY WE BELIEVE. Show just ONE verse saying faith is via your FREE WILL.

Faith means literally to trust

show me one instance in all history where trust is forced on someone against their will

As usual, you did not answer my question. There is no answer. There are NO VERSES saying faith is via your FREE WILL. Plenty of verses saying GOD gives one faith.


Your definition of FAITH need modification IMO: Faith means more than just trust. It also have to have CONTENT to be trusted, ACCENT to the CONTENT being true and also TRUST.

You don't understand how it works IMO. Trust is dependent on one's will always. The pertinent question is: WHAT DETERMINES MY WILL; not "show me where trust is forced on someone. Trust is NOT forced on anyone. This is how it works IMO.
1) I was born a sinner (Psalm 51:5)
2) I did not want to trust God, in fact I COULD NOT trust God (John 3:20, Rom. 3:10-18; Rom. 7:18, Rom. 8:7, etc.etc.etc) My will could not be changed by me
3) God changed my will (John 1:12-13, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 3:12, etc. etc. etc.). He gave me faith.
4) Now I TRUST as my will has changed and I obey (imperfectly) because I trust

 

[preacher4truth]

Seed gift of faith?

No, I’m not saying that preacher. I know faith is a gift from God. Faith is a substance in the spiritual realm that when Father sees it manifest in our life, through Honly Spirit, the gift of Himself.....He gives us that which we are asking

I'm glad you believe faith is Gods gift, it is the testimony of Scripture.

But since you believe this, your claim that belief is a work of yourself is a contradiction. I'm talking about faith being a gift, which is that we believe the gospel, that this belief came from him. You've agreed, and I am trying to reason with you and show your inconsistency and error. Christ said belief is the work of God. Therefore you cannot claim as you did before, that it is our work. It isn't our work, it is his work.

Lots of fancy words above in your response, almost like an incantation, yet totally devoid of Biblical support. Do you see that? His word is truth, not ours. Nothing you said was biblical, it was like an incantation.

 

[preacher4truth]

lol what a joke man

your the one who weasels, your buddy here is becoming like you refusing to answer questions when the question appears to put his belief in question

More belittling and attacking? No worries, even though this is who you are, I don't go around whining and reporting.

Nothing you said is true, plus he's answered your questions plainly. Nothing you've ever said has caused our beliefs to be in question.

 

[Guojing]

Well this is our work, yes! Believe! Jesus replied to the one who asked about this very thing.


Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?


Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The context of John is about signs and wonders, to prove to the Jews that Jesus was indeed their promised Messiah and Son of God (John 20:30-31). The works that Jesus did, those signs, are for the Jews to believe that about him.

We don't believe in that for our salvation now, we believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose again on the 3rd day (1 Cor 15:1-4). We don't need signs and wonders to believe that.

 

[preacher4truth]

Re: Give verses to substantiate this claim of faith by free will. Note: Not verses saying what we must do to be saved. We all know we must believe. BUT VERSES TELLING US WHY WE BELIEVE. Show just ONE verse saying faith is via your FREE WILL.



As usual, you did not answer my question. There is no answer. There are NO VERSES saying faith is via your FREE WILL. Plenty of verses saying GOD gives one faith.


Your definition of FAITH need modification IMO: Faith means more than just trust. It also have to have CONTENT to be trusted, ACCENT to the CONTENT being true and also TRUST.

You don't understand how it works IMO. Trust is dependent on one's will always. The pertinent question is: WHAT DETERMINES MY WILL; not "show me where trust is forced on someone. Trust is NOT forced on anyone. This is how it works IMO.
1) I was born a sinner (Psalm 51:5)
2) I did not want to trust God, in fact I COULD NOT trust God (John 3:20, Rom. 3:10-18; Rom. 7:18, Rom. 8:7, etc.etc.etc) My will could not be changed by me
3) God changed my will (John 1:12-13, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 3:12, etc. etc. etc.). He gave me faith.
4) Now I TRUST as my will has changed and I obey (imperfectly) because I trust

It always goes right back to what they did, their free will, God "helped" them to salvation (part them, part God, by his own admission right here in this thread!) they chose, God saw they would so he gave them eternal life for doing it, which is 100% merit and not grace.

 

[stonesoffire]

necause He was chosen while others were not and will never have even a chance to be rescued.

I think there’s some truth here, but not in the way this is said.

All the world is justified, freed from judgement if they just knew it. That’s why Jesus said if He be lifted up, all men will be drawn to Him. But, who knows and understands, where are those who hear the message and go out in the streets and preach it?

 

[Fastfredy0]

• These Bible verses about free will show us that we have the ability to choose and have faith in God, being secure in our eternal life in heaven, or we can choose to turn from God and live apart from Him. Use these Scriptures to help you make wise choices!

18 Top Bible Verses About Free Will - Encouraging Scriptures
www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-free-will/#:~:text=These%20Bible%20verses%20about%2

Well, you are better than most. At least you attempted to answer my question.

My question: Give verses to substantiate this claim. Note: Not verses saying what we must do to be saved. We all know we must believe. BUT VERSES TELLING US WHY WE BELIEVE. Show just ONE verse saying faith is via your FREE WILL.

Note i said to not give me verses saying what we must do, BUT VERSES TELLING US WHY WE BELIEVE.
So, picking one of your verses from your link:
John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Just what I knew would happen. A verse telling one WHAT one must do, but not telling us who gives one the power to do it. You assume that because you are told to do something that you can do it. The depravity of man makes it impossible to obey God (NO ONE SEEKS GOD.. could give another 40ish verses) So, seeing that God say NO ONE SEEKS him and he says to DO SOMETHING... the solution is God must change your heart (will) to enable you to obey. John 1:12-13 is just one example that says it is not your will that you are saved, but His. I asked for VERSES TELLING US WHY WE BELIEVE; not verses telling me what to do and assume I have the power to do it. Example: God was sin no more, but you don't have the power to do it. When you are glorified, do you think you will have the power to do it .... yes, because GOD is reason you will have the power.

 

[preacher4truth]

All the world is justified, freed from judgement if they just knew it.

Sorry, but this is absolutely unbiblical and untrue.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Next she'll deny free will, or willing to believe. Something they all believe and argue.

I am used to answers with little to no foundation ... answers like, "you are wrong because your interpretation is incorrect". Like dah, I assumed that to be true. I was hoping for corroborating evidence which I seldom get. ... or instead of an answer to my question I will get a question instead .... or, I will get back to you.

Aside: Judges1318's theology was off (IMO), but at least he responded to questions and gave some scripture. Gee, even Micaiah-imla gets credit for that. She at least puts up an argument.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God may be using wife as "second cause" to come to bed so as to stop me from bugging you people.

 

[preacher4truth]

I am used to answers with little to no foundation ... answers like, "you are wrong because your interpretation is incorrect". Like dah, I assumed that to be true. I was hoping for corroborating evidence which I seldom get. ... or instead of an answer to my question I will get a question instead .... or, I will get back to you.

Aside: Judges1318's theology was off (IMO), but at least he responded to questions and gave some scripture. Gee, even Micaiah-imla gets credit for that. She at least puts up an argument.

Yes they both used Scripture that's for sure. Both are bashed as well. Very little substance from the rest, but lots of accusations.

I believe @eternally-gratefull offered several responses to me that were merely accusatory and belittling yet has offered hardly any real interaction and rarely any Scripture. But hey, I'm going to at least get reported.

 

[biker]

Nope, man isn't saved via deciding; John 1:13, Romans 9:16.

Thank You, I stand corrected

I should've been thinking more clearly since I believe we were predestined before God spoke the first thing into existence.

 

[biker]

So grace is merited by believing? And therefore it's salvation by works? Got it! That and zero Scripture, just an exclamation point which must make it all true.

Romans 10:
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

[DorothyMae]

Your assumption is not true.
No genuine beliver will believe they can sin all they want and it's a get out of hell free card, no matter what evil one does.

If that is taught then that is an abomination to the gospel.
Those who have been taught such things and believe it need to be addressed.

I have only ever seen such thoughts twice in my 38 years as a believer.

And I have never ever seen anyone on here promote it either.

If you have then call them out.

No one who believes OSAS TEACHES the logical consequences of the theology of the problems would be clear. If course they don’t SAY they believe they can sin all they want for the same reason.

Now are you willing to admit that the standard for a “genuine believer” is that they DONT sin all they want? That is, their behavior (works) is the measure of a genuine believer?

This is a problem in OSAS that no one wants to touch. You have to measure whether a person is a genuine believer by outward things since you insist genuine believers never fall away. You see, falling away is an outward act. If one does later in life, you have to say they were never a genuine believer. Which begs the question how any of you know you are a genuine believer since your life hasn’t ended yet.

Similar to the license to sin problem. Genuine believers don’t think they can sin all they want according to you. But where does “all they want” end? Do they sin a fair bit cause it doesn’t matter since they’re going to heaven anyway?

No one in OSAS teaches the problems. They don’t even admit they are there. Doesn’t mean they aren’t.