The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

KJV1611 · Jun 29, 2020

I'm the same way, I don't care what the truth is, I just want to follow the truth... It doesn't matter to me how any of this goes down. If I'm raptured, great. If Jesus is coming back to rule a thousand years great... I used to believe all of that until I started reading the bible. None of it bears out to be the truth according to scripture.

Truth7t7 · Jun 29, 2020

KJV1611 said:

I'm not waiting for a kingdom on "This Earth"

I look forward to this Heaven and Earth being dissolved by fire, as the New Heaven, Earth, and Jerusalem are revealed for "Eternity"

You deny the promise of a New Heaven and Earth as seen below.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-2KJV
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Truth7t7 · Jun 29, 2020

KJV1611 said:

(Full Preterism) is heretical to biblical truth.

You present another false claim in denying a literal Jesus Christ, returning in literal clouds of heaven, being witnessed by literal human eyes on earth, as clearly seen below.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Truth7t7 · Jun 29, 2020

biker said:

Heaven only?

The future holds the promise of the eternal New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem, as "Clearly Taught" in Scripture.

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-2KJV
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

biker · Jun 29, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Heaven only?

The future holds the promise of the eternal New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem, as "Clearly Taught" in Scripture.

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-2KJV
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I am being cordial here. I am just claiming that Heaven is more than enough for me.

But I believe like Christ said, this Earth will be destroyed and New One will take its place.

This is New Jerusalem!

Truth7t7 · Jun 29, 2020

biker said:

Amen!

New Jerusalem

Revelation 21:10-27KJV
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Truth7t7 · Jun 29, 2020

Jimbone said:

The scripture is plain and clear, Mark and avoid those that teach "False Doctrine"

Another Doctrine!

1.) The individual denies a future return of Jesus Christ to earth?

2.) The individual denies the future glorified body of the believer and resurrection on the last day?

3.) The individual denies a future New Heaven and Earth?

Three Strikes You're Out!

"Avoid Them"!

Romans 16:17KJV
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

tourist · Jun 29, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Heaven only?

The future holds the promise of the eternal New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem, as "Clearly Taught" in Scripture.

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-2KJV
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Looking forward to a new universe as well.

Truth7t7 · Jun 29, 2020

tourist said:

I believe the "New Heavens" would include the entire universe?

tourist · Jun 29, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

That is my understanding as well.

PlainWord · Jun 30, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

But HE WAS!!! You keep only quoting vs. 29-30. Go back to v. 27 to see what His return would be like. You can't take some of the passage while ignoring the rest.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

This verse seems to suggest that lightning might mark the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds. Historical evidence that lightning may have accompanied the Parousia seems to be recorded at the start of the Jewish revolt in A.D. 66 by the first-century Roman historian Tacitus: "In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure."

Thus Christ's return was to be seen as a flash of lightening from the east to the west. Other passages tell us He will be leading a heavenly army of angels of fire. The second coming is described in detail in Rev 19-11-14. Here, Jesus rides a white horse leading an army of angels on horseback on the clouds.

The first-century Jewish historian Josephus describes a heavenly army in the clouds much like the army Jesus leads in Revelation 19:11-14. This event is also recorded by other historians. The first-century pagan historian Tacitus also mentions this event: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.” Pseudo-Hegesippus also describes the coming of Christ on the clouds with His mighty angels at that time when he writes, “A certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed, and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen in the clouds chariots in the clouds and armed battle arrays by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded.” The medieval Jewish historian Sepher Yosippon expounds upon this angelic army in the sky of A.D. 66 by saying, “Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.” The parallels between these three accounts and Rev 19 are striking. However, in Yosippon’s account one can see how 2 Thessalonians 1:7 was explicitly and LITERALLY fulfilled in A.D. 66: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”

You can argue that these above accounts from 3 historians do not describe the return of Christ if you want to but when He said He would return to their generation and implied that John would still be alive (Jn 14) and some standing there would be still alive, you better come up with another explanation for these (and other) 66-70 AD events because these are NOT normal occurrences. Couple that with the fact that if your view is correct, why aren't the above events recorded in the Bible since they tie to the destruction of Jerusalem and the elimination of the Jewish state for nearly 2,000 years when all other aspects of Jewish history, are detailed in the Bible?

PlainWord · Jun 30, 2020

biker said:

It's much more than that. The Temple was the symbol of God's place with His people in Jerusalem to the whole world. For 2,000 years God was known as, "The God of the Jews." Sure, the falling of the temple made it impossible for surviving Jews to fully keep the Law but it was also a sign to the whole world that God was the God of ALL!!! The falling of the temple was critically important for the Gentile world to gain acceptance and that through the new Church, and not Judaism, was the new way. Next to the Cross, the Falling of the Temple was likely the 2nd most important event in the past 2,000 years. The Law and Mosaic Age ended and the Church, or Messianic Age began. OUT WITH THE OLD, IN WITH THE NEW. Christ dwells with His church and is it's chief cornerstone and leader. He is the groom, we are His Bride. RIGHT NOW, not thousands of years later. His presence is with us today!!

We aren't waiting for some future kingdom in this physical age. The church exists in both our physical realm and in the spiritual realm (new heaven and earth) as many of its members have moved on into the spiritual. I am fine to agree to disagree but so long as you continue to quote and debate me, its on. Remember, I used to think as you did. All of your arguments and beliefs I once held, thus I know the inherent short comings of them

. Debating a futurist is like child's play for me and I don't mean that to sound condescending. What I am trying to say is, "been there, done that

." You have nothing new to teach me on this topic. I am actually trying to help you as the futurist view is so wrong, so negative, so retreating and escapist. It admits Christ was wrong about His return. It keeps saints in Hades for thousands of additional years or their disembodied souls waiting for their spiritual body like the Tin Man waiting for a new heart. It has our old corrupted flesh bodies making up part of our new spiritual body in clear violation of Paul's teaching.

The Preterist view declares that Jesus was correct in the timing of His return. Hades (DEATH) has been defeated. No longer are we separate from God when we die, rather, we are immediately in heaven whereby we get the Body (Reward) that we deserve. Absent from the body, COMPLETELY (not partially) present with the Lord. I am not looking for some rapture to spare me from death as I accept what the writer of Hebrews said, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." I'm much happier on my side of the fence than when I was on your side. No more fears of some great tribulation, wondering if the rapture would be pre, mid or post. I used to plan stockpiling food in living out in the woods so that I could survive the boogeyman AntiChrist. Now I don't worry about a thing. It's all in God's hands and when I die, I will be with Him wholly, not split up into my three basic parts, body, soul, spirit. I'm passionate about this because when I see so much of the Church continue to believe the way they do forced to twist and distort and live in fear, it saddens me and I would like to help show the correct, and far better way. My way has been correct for nearly 2,000 years and counting. I don't set dates then look like the fool like many on your side. But, God bless you brother, we are all still God's children and citizens of heaven.

KJV1611 · Jun 30, 2020

PlainWord said:

But HE WAS!!! You keep only quoting vs. 29-30. Go back to v. 27 to see what His return would be like. You can't take some of the passage while ignoring the rest.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

This verse seems to suggest that lightning might mark the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds. Historical evidence that lightning may have accompanied the Parousia seems to be recorded at the start of the Jewish revolt in A.D. 66 by the first-century Roman historian Tacitus: "In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure."

Thus Christ's return was to be seen as a flash of lightening from the east to the west. Other passages tell us He will be leading a heavenly army of angels of fire. The second coming is described in detail in Rev 19-11-14. Here, Jesus rides a white horse leading an army of angels on horseback on the clouds.

The first-century Jewish historian Josephus describes a heavenly army in the clouds much like the army Jesus leads in Revelation 19:11-14. This event is also recorded by other historians. The first-century pagan historian Tacitus also mentions this event: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.” Pseudo-Hegesippus also describes the coming of Christ on the clouds with His mighty angels at that time when he writes, “A certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed, and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen in the clouds chariots in the clouds and armed battle arrays by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded.” The medieval Jewish historian Sepher Yosippon expounds upon this angelic army in the sky of A.D. 66 by saying, “Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.” The parallels between these three accounts and Rev 19 are striking. However, in Yosippon’s account one can see how 2 Thessalonians 1:7 was explicitly and LITERALLY fulfilled in A.D. 66: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”

You can argue that these above accounts from 3 historians do not describe the return of Christ if you want to but when He said He would return to their generation and implied that John would still be alive (Jn 14) and some standing there would be still alive, you better come up with another explanation for these (and other) 66-70 AD events because these are NOT normal occurrences. Couple that with the fact that if your view is correct, why aren't the above events recorded in the Bible since they tie to the destruction of Jerusalem and the elimination of the Jewish state for nearly 2,000 years when all other aspects of Jewish history, are detailed in the Bible?

The bible is a code book with all of it's secrets hidden in symbols and riddles. If we are going to figure out what Jesus coming from heaven like lightning means we're gonna find iit in the bible, not Josephus.

Just search the bible for hidden references about Jesus descending from heaven like lightning. It is found in Matthew 28 and it's disguised so well that most people will never even see it because most people don't believe every single word as it's written.

(Mat 28:2) And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
(Mat 28:3) His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

KJV1611 · Jun 30, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

It's recorded in history right here:

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

(Joh 19:37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Per John and in harmony with all other scripture, those who pierced him LOOKED ON HIM when he "cometh with clouds".

Not rocket science man, just believe the words of that bible!

Dan_473 · Jun 30, 2020

KJV1611 said:

fascinating!

now I'm wondering, and I'm not even sure what I'm wondering...

coming that Jesus talks about in Matthew 10:23,
is that the same coming as in Revelation 22:20?

(if it matters, it's the same Greek word in both places)

not that I'm worried about trying to understand the details of these things.
like you say,
follow the truth!

KJV1611 · Jun 30, 2020

Dan_473 said:

I've found two comings in the bible. One is the SECOND coming which happened at the resurrection and the other one is when Jesus comes into a believers life - When the Day Star arises in our hearts.

(2Pe 1:19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

That coming in 2 Peter is the same coming as 2 Thessalonians 2.

(2Th 2:1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2Th 2:2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

That coming ^ will not happen until this happens:

(2Th 2:3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The man of sin is OUR OWN FLESH. When he is crucified, then the Day Star can arise in our hearts.

TheDivineWatermark · Jun 30, 2020

Dan_473 said:

Consider the following things (I've mentioned before), when considering the context of Matthew 10:23:

--the "ye/you" is a "proleptic 'ye/you'" (meaning, basically, "all those in the future, of the same category"); and

--all "Son of man cometh/coming of/shall come/be come/[etc]" refers to His Second Coming to the earth (to judge and to reign), and that which pertains to [is surrounding] that

...and this is just for starters.

PlainWord · Jun 30, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

This is heaven, where all believers go when they die. "descending out of heaven" = "making heaven available to those on earth."

The size of the city, about 1,500 cubic miles cannot be on this planet. A building that tall cannot be made out of the materials mentioned or any known material as the weight would crush the base. The earth's atmosphere is about 300 miles up, this thing would extend 1,200 miles beyond that ripping a giant gash in the ozone layer killing everyone alive. Imagine this thing whipping around at 1,000+ miles an hour with 80% of it sticking out into space. Or more likely, the atmosphere would heat the structure up beyond its melting point. Any structural engineer would tell you a building of this size is impossible under our laws of physics thus it cannot be located in our physical realm.

If you note, the kings of the earth and the nations which are saved shall walk by the light of Heaven (God and Jesus) and they continue to bring their glory and honor into it. Since there is no sun or moon, this isn't our earth. God is light thus we don't need the sun anymore. Only those in the Lamb's book enter. The Lamb's book is opened when? It is open as each of us is judged to see if we are found and may enter. We are judged upon our death.

PlainWord · Jun 30, 2020

Dan_473 said:

I love my brother KJV but Christ's resurrection was NOT the second coming. He didn't get resurrected with angels and armies from heaven. NT writers like Paul who wrote after the resurrection of Christ was still looking for it as he told the Thessalonians and others how to live so as not to be caught as those who walked in darkness. There was an actual second coming of Christ's presence and it began in 66 AD and continued until at least 70 AD.

KJV1611 · Jun 30, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Consider the following things (I've mentioned before), when considering the context of Matthew 10:23:

--the "ye/you" is a "proleptic 'ye/you'" (meaning, basically, "all those in the future, of the same category"); and

--all "Son of man cometh/coming of/shall come/be come/[etc]" refers to His Second Coming to the earth (to judge and to reign), and that which pertains to [is surrounding] that

...and this is just for starters.

What makes it proleptic?

The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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