Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Wansvic]

Not the traditions of men described above but APOSTOLIC Tradition in the Catholic Church, described by saint Paul, is the solution. - "Hold fast to the TRADITIONS that you have received from us either by letter (scripture) or by word (Tradition) of ours. (Apostles.)" See 2 Thess.2:15

The traditions Paul spoke of concerned the things the listeners had been taught by the Apostles. It is obvious that those forming various denominations did not follow Paul's direction. Instead of "holding fast" to truth, the "church fathers" throughout history modified/distorted the apostles teachings to suit their own belief. Their traditions of error contain only bits and pieces not the whole of biblical teachings. (Mark 7:8-9) Unfortunately when a person refuses to obey what the word actually says the result can be eternal damnation. The good news is every person can change their final destination during their lifetime through repentance.

 

[Dan_473]

This verse doesn't mean when we die, we able to hear and remember billion people pray to us.

that's correct!

I was talking about your idea of the apostle Paul coming back from heaven every now and then to preach in churches.

it seems to me that it is God's plan for us, at this time, to have incomplete knowledge.

I was posting that verse to show that we currently have incomplete knowledge.

This verse is talking about prophecy.

9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10. but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.
11. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.
13. But now faith, hope, and love remain--these three. The greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians, 13)

I think it is talking about both prophecy and knowledge.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

The gift of prophecy not perfectly understood like we see something at mirror, dimly

for example, the book revelation. A lot of symbol, like we see a mirror, dimly.

I agree there's a lot about prophecy that we don't know!

but I've never met anyone who claimed to know everything about the Christian Life and the Bible except for prophecy.
(and if I did meet someone who claimed that, I wouldn't believe them!)

we were talking about why Paul isn't coming back and preaching at churches.
at this time, we have partial knowledge.
but people in heaven have full knowledge.
I'm pretty sure some of the things people in heaven know are the things that are not lawful to speak here on Earth, like Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians 12.

finally, when Paul was here on Earth, when he preached he had the ability to put some people to sleep, just like other preachers nowadays.

7. On the first day of the week, when the disciples were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and continued his speech until midnight.
8. There were many lights in the upper room where we were gathered together.
9. A certain young man named Eutychus sat in the window, weighed down with deep sleep.
(Acts, 20)

 

[Wansvic]

Amen! Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say..'The scriptures alone.' But the Bible, given to the world by the Holy Spirit through the Church at the Catholic Council of Carthage in 397 A.D. DOES say.. "Hold fast to the TRADITIONS you have received from us.." (2 Thess.2:15) and the scriptures DO say that.."The CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Tim. 3:15)

The birth of the church took place on the Day of Pentecost. Since then people who follow the APOSTLES traditions are being spiritually reborn even unto today.

 

[Dan_473]

Thank you for your persistence in asking that question. Even though Jesus was specifically speaking of a physical sword the concept has spiritual significance as well.

you're welcome, and I agree that the subject has spiritual significance as well!

I do not have a physical sword because Jesus' instruction was not directed to everyone. It was directed to the disciples in His presence. In the conversation, Jesus pointed to the fact that while He was with them they didn't need a weapon. (He was their weapon) However, their existence was to change considering Jesus would soon be crucified. Since turbulent times were coming they would need a weapon to defend themselves from possible assault; many people were not going to like what they had to say.

yes, and I agree again!

but, an important thing that we're doing here:
we are not simply reading the Bible word for word.
we are looking at other things like the situation in which the words were spoken to help our understanding.

(also a side note, I think it's interesting that two of the disciples brought swords to the Passover meal while Jesus was still with them.)

The spiritual sword; the word of God is one that all have access to. (Eph 6:17) However, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit one is unable to wield it effectively. The ability to combat the enemy's lies requires a person to know God's truth and that understanding comes by the Holy Spirit. (John 16:13)

absolutely, the holy Spirit guides us into all truth!

we agree on the subject of buying a physical sword.
but I'm pretty sure there are other Christians who look at this same passage and say that Christians ought therefore to own a gun.
and they believe the holy Spirit has given them the proper understanding of the passage.

of course, there are thousands of examples here on Christian chat alone of people disputing an issue, both of them claiming to have the proper understanding of the scriptures, an understanding given by the Spirit.

I think Catholics and Eastern Orthodox also believe that the holy spirit guides them into all truth.
however, they tend to see the Spirit guiding the church as a whole, as a body.

I think Protestants tend to see the Spirit guiding people individually.

 

[Wansvic]

I think Catholics and Eastern Orthodox also believe that the holy spirit guides them into all truth.
however, they tend to see the Spirit guiding the church as a whole, as a body.
I think Protestants tend to see the Spirit guiding people individually.

Again, the word clarifies whose belief is accurate concerning who or what is being guided by the Spirit. Individuals will be held accountable for their own actions. (Matt 7:21-23) Believing church doctrine will not be a defense.

 

[Wansvic]

you're welcome, and I agree that the subject has spiritual significance as well!


yes, and I agree again!

but, an important thing that we're doing here:
we are not simply reading the Bible word for word.
we are looking at other things like the situation in which the words were spoken to help our understanding.

(also a side note, I think it's interesting that two of the disciples brought swords to the Passover meal while Jesus was still with them.)


absolutely, the holy Spirit guides us into all truth!

we agree on the subject of buying a physical sword.
but I'm pretty sure there are other Christians who look at this same passage and say that Christians ought therefore to own a gun.
and they believe the holy Spirit has given them the proper understanding of the passage.

of course, there are thousands of examples here on Christian chat alone of people disputing an issue, both of them claiming to have the proper understanding of the scriptures, an understanding given by the Spirit.

I think Catholics and Eastern Orthodox also believe that the holy spirit guides them into all truth.
however, they tend to see the Spirit guiding the church as a whole, as a body.
I think Protestants tend to see the Spirit guiding people individually.

People believe many things about many topics in the word. However, there is only one evidence depicted that proved one had been filled with the Holy Spirit. Since God does nothing without purpose it would seem that speaking in tongues accompanies the infilling so an individual knows God's indwelling has actually occurred. This evidence closes the door to deception.

The scripture below from the Book of Matthew is a harsh truth many will be confronted with. And, according to Jesus many are headed that way. (Matt 7:13)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:21-23

Also, it should be noted that iniquity in the above context speaks to one's deviating from the correct path. What path? Each journey has a starting point. The beginning of one's journey with God is to begin as it did with the apostles on the Day of Pentecost. Jesus told the apostles not to begin their journey until they were endued with power. They had to obey God in order to be united with Him in the spiritual rebirth. This truth remains today. Without following Peter instructions to repent, be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and receive the Holy Ghost one has begun their journey on their own terms.

 

[Wansvic]

(also a side note, I think it's interesting that two of the disciples brought swords to the Passover meal while Jesus was still with them.)

I wasn't aware of it. Where is it referenced in scripture?

 

[Dan_473]

Again, the word clarifies whose belief is accurate concerning who or what is being guided by the Spirit. Individuals will be held accountable for their own actions. (Matt 7:21-23) Believing church doctrine will not be a defense.

I agree that we will be judged individually.

however, imo, it does not follow that therefore the spirit gives the proper understanding of the scriptures to each individual separately.

whether it does follow or not, would be the difference of understanding of the scriptures, again imo.

**************

it's easy to think,
as I have in the past and am tempted to do in the present,
that the spirit has blessed me with special wisdom and insight for understanding God's word.
that's probably because I am such a sincere follower of God.

if other people disagree with me, it must be because they are still being held captive by besetting sins and a hardened heart!

but in reality,
that's just my flesh trying to do its works
19. Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness,
20. idolatry, sorcery, hatred,
strife,
jealousies,
outbursts of anger,
rivalries,
divisions,
sectarianism,
21. envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
(Galatians, 5)

 

[Jackson123]

we were talking about why Paul isn't coming back and preaching at churches.

Three is a verse that say

Ecclesiasticus 38:23

“When the dead is at rest, let his remembrance rest; and be comforted for him, when his Spirit is departed from him.”

 

[Dan_473]

People believe many things about many topics in the word. However, there is only one evidence depicted that proved one had been filled with the Holy Spirit. Since God does nothing without purpose it would seem that speaking in tongues accompanies the infilling so an individual knows God's indwelling has actually occurred. This evidence closes the door to deception.

The scripture below from the Book of Matthew is a harsh truth many will be confronted with. And, according to Jesus many are headed that way. (Matt 7:13)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:21-23

Also, it should be noted that iniquity in the above context speaks to one's deviating from the correct path. What path? Each journey has a starting point. The beginning of one's journey with God is to begin as it did with the apostles on the Day of Pentecost. Jesus told the apostles not to begin their journey until they were endued with power. They had to obey God in order to be united with Him in the spiritual rebirth. This truth remains today. Without following Peter instructions to repent, be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and receive the Holy Ghost one has begun their journey on their own terms.

if I understand what you're saying right,
the idea that those who speak in tongues have the proper understanding of the scriptures
is itself based on a particular understanding of the scriptures, imo.

another issue is that there are many people who speak in tongues, but they don't all agree in their understanding of the scriptures.

 

[Dan_473]

I wasn't aware of it. Where is it referenced in scripture?

it's the same section,

Luke 22:36 Then he said to them, "But now, whoever has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword. 37 For I tell you that this which is written must still be fulfilled in me: 'He was counted with transgressors.' For that which concerns me has an end." 38 They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." He said to them, "That is enough."

 

[Dan_473]

Three is a verse that say

Ecclesiasticus 38:23

“When the dead is at rest, let his remembrance rest; and be comforted for him, when his Spirit is departed from him.”

I'm sure you know that the book of ecclesiasticus is not in most Protestant Bibles.

it is in Catholic Bibles, but then they would also say that it's not right for an individual to read a verse and use it to criticize a church teaching.

looking at the whole passage,

My son, shed tears for one who is dead*

with wailing and bitter lament;

As is only proper, prepare the body,

and do not absent yourself from the burial.

17Weeping bitterly, mourning fully,

pay your tribute of sorrow, as deserved:

A day or two, to prevent gossip;

then compose yourself after your grief.

18For grief can bring on death,

and heartache can sap one’s strength.d

19When a person is carried away, sorrow is over;

and the life of the poor one is grievous to the heart.

20Do not turn your thoughts to him again;

cease to recall him; think rather of the end.e

21Do not recall him, for there is no hope of his return;

you do him no good, and you harm yourself.f

22Remember that his fate will also be yours;

for him it was yesterday, for you today.g

23With the dead at rest, let memory cease;

be consoled, once the spirit has gone.
http://usccb.org/bible/sirach/38

it looks to me like it is about how to behave at funerals,
and advice to avoid excessive grief.

 

[Wansvic]

I agree that we will be judged individually.

however, imo, it does not follow that therefore the spirit gives the proper understanding of the scriptures to each individual separately.

whether it does follow or not, would be the difference of understanding of the scriptures, again imo.

**************

it's easy to think,
as I have in the past and am tempted to do in the present,
that the spirit has blessed me with special wisdom and insight for understanding God's word.
that's probably because I am such a sincere follower of God.

if other people disagree with me, it must be because they are still being held captive by besetting sins and a hardened heart!

but in reality,
that's just my flesh trying to do its works
19. Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness,
20. idolatry, sorcery, hatred,
strife,
jealousies,
outbursts of anger,
rivalries,
divisions,
sectarianism,
21. envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
(Galatians, 5)

I enjoy reading your views.

As far as my believing I have special insight or understanding because I am such a sincere follower is not true. The word says no person is better than another, and my flesh is all too ready to remind me of that fact. When the fruit of the Spirit does show up it is exactly that fruit made available only through the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. We are vessels whom God equips as He sees fit for use in fulfilling His purposes.

Only since my becoming aware of the need to obey the instructions given by Peter and complying with them in there entirety did scriptures begin to jump off the page. Truth concerning the spiritual rebirth, particularly water baptism in the beginning, seemed to miraculously appear every time I cracked open the bible. Since I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box it took me a while to notice what was going on. The Holy Spirit was leading, I was not searching for scripture concerning any specific topic. As I said it just jumped off the page. I started saying to myself, "there's that water again." Noah and his family preserved and saved through water. (1 Peter 3:18-22) Baby Moses escaped death by floating to safety. (Ex. 2:3) Elijah had to pass between parted water prior to being taken up in the whirlwind. (2 Kings 2:8-11) Joshua and the Israelites path to the earthly promised land was by way of parted waters. (John 3:16-17) I could go on but you get the point.

I am nothing more than a vessel that God is using to point people to the truth about the spiritual rebirth. I have no desire to push things down anyone's throat I just want people to pay attention to what the bible actually says instead of blindly accepting what others tell them is in there. I was guilty of just that where water baptism was concerned. And, I personally did not begin receiving revelation of scripture until my spiritual eyes were open after being buried with Jesus through water baptism in His name. Others can accept or reject that but the concept is clearly seen in John 3:3.

Where each of us will spend eternity should compel us to study and obey what is found in the word.

 

[Wansvic]

it's the same section,

Luke 22:36 Then he said to them, "But now, whoever has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword. 37 For I tell you that this which is written must still be fulfilled in me: 'He was counted with transgressors.' For that which concerns me has an end." 38 They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." He said to them, "That is enough."

Thank you!

 

[Wansvic]

if I understand what you're saying right,
the idea that those who speak in tongues have the proper understanding of the scriptures
is itself based on a particular understanding of the scriptures, imo.

another issue is that there are many people who speak in tongues, but they don't all agree in their understanding of the scriptures.

I can only respond to this from my personal experience. I had repented and received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. And years later I got water baptized in the titles. But revelation did not begin until I became aware of how the apostles water baptized and got re-baptized. I stepped out in faith and obeyed because I saw it. Only afterward did I begin to understand the significance of what had occurred through the illumination of scripture given by the Spirit.

Also, operating in the spiritual gift of tongues is a totally different experience. God only used me one time to edify the church with that gift.

 

[Jackson123]

I'm sure you know that the book of ecclesiasticus is not in most Protestant Bibles.

it is in Catholic Bibles, but then they would also say that it's not right for an individual to read a verse and use it to criticize a church teaching.

looking at the whole passage,

My son, shed tears for one who is dead*

with wailing and bitter lament;

As is only proper, prepare the body,

and do not absent yourself from the burial.

17Weeping bitterly, mourning fully,

pay your tribute of sorrow, as deserved:

A day or two, to prevent gossip;

then compose yourself after your grief.

18For grief can bring on death,

and heartache can sap one’s strength.d

19When a person is carried away, sorrow is over;

and the life of the poor one is grievous to the heart.

20Do not turn your thoughts to him again;

cease to recall him; think rather of the end.e

21Do not recall him, for there is no hope of his return;

you do him no good, and you harm yourself.f

22Remember that his fate will also be yours;

for him it was yesterday, for you today.g

23With the dead at rest, let memory cease;

be consoled, once the spirit has gone.
http://usccb.org/bible/sirach/38

it looks to me like it is about how to behave at funerals,
and advice to avoid excessive grief.

It may give reason to avoid excessive grief, but it is not lie.

For example my son worry about how to pay electric bill, than I know electric company will free up electricity cost for the poor.
I informed my son not to worry, and I tell the reason. I am not lie.

Yes I tell the information to make him not worry, but the information is not lie.

Yes that verse to avoid excessive grief, but it isn't lie, because Bible don't lie

 

[Wansvic]

I'm sure you know that the book of ecclesiasticus is not in most Protestant Bibles.

it is in Catholic Bibles, but then they would also say that it's not right for an individual to read a verse and use it to criticize a church teaching.

fixing

 

[Dan_473]

I enjoy reading your views.

thank you!

As far as my believing I have special insight or understanding because I am such a sincere follower is not true. The word says no person is better than another, and my flesh is all too ready to remind me of that fact. When the fruit of the Spirit does show up it is exactly that fruit made available only through the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. We are vessels whom God equips as He sees fit for use in fulfilling His purposes.

Only since my becoming aware of the need to obey the instructions given by Peter and complying with them in there entirety did scriptures begin to jump off the page. Truth concerning the spiritual rebirth, particularly water baptism in the beginning, seemed to miraculously appear every time I cracked open the bible. Since I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box it took me a while to notice what was going on. The Holy Spirit was leading, I was not searching for scripture concerning any specific topic. As I said it just jumped off the page. I started saying to myself, "there's that water again." Noah and his family preserved and saved through water. (1 Peter 3:18-22) Baby Moses escaped death by floating to safety. (Ex. 2:3) Elijah had to pass between parted water prior to being taken up in the whirlwind. (2 Kings 2:8-11) Joshua and the Israelites path to the earthly promised land was by way of parted waters. (John 3:16-17) I could go on but you get the point.

I am nothing more than a vessel that God is using to point people to the truth about the spiritual rebirth. I have no desire to push things down anyone's throat I just want people to pay attention to what the bible actually says instead of blindly accepting what others tell them is in there. I was guilty of just that where water baptism was concerned. And, I personally did not begin receiving revelation of scripture until my spiritual eyes were open after being buried with Jesus through water baptism in His name. Others can accept or reject that but the concept is clearly seen in John 3:3.



Where each of us will spend eternity should compel us to study and obey what is found in the word.

I know what you mean about the feeling of the scriptures jumping off the page and being "nothing more than a vessel that God is using to point people to the truth...".
I've had that feeling many times myself,
and I have also met Catholic and Eastern Orthodox who have experienced it as well!

at this point, we can discuss water baptism if you wish.
however, whatever conclusions you and I reach will not really apply to the thread, since Catholics don't see the Bible as something for individuals to read and make up their own minds about.

if you do want to discuss water baptism and especially how it was practiced in the New testament,
a first question would be:
many of Jesus' disciples had been baptized by John.
at some point, did they get baptized again?

 

[Dan_473]

I can only respond to this from my personal experience. I had repented and received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. And years later I got water baptized in the titles. But revelation did not begin until I became aware of how the apostles water baptized and got re-baptized. I stepped out in faith and obeyed because I saw it. Only afterward did I begin to understand the significance of what had occurred through the illumination of scripture given by the Spirit.

at what time do you believe you became a member of the body of Christ?

at what time do you believe you were baptized in the holy Spirit?

 

[Dan_473]

It may give reason to avoid excessive grief, but it is not lie.



For example my son worry about how to pay electric bill, than I know electric company will free up electricity cost for the poor.

I informed my son not to worry, and I tell the reason. I am not lie.



Yes I tell the information to make him not worry, but the information is not lie.

myself, I'm not sure if it is telling the truth or not,
since I am not sure if it is scripture or not.

looking again at the particular verse that you cited

23With the dead at rest, let memory cease;
be consoled, once the spirit has gone.
http://usccb.org/bible/sirach/38

I don't think it's saying forget about your dead friends or grandparents,
I think it is saying don't remember them in such a way that it saps your strength for daily living in the present.

I don't think it would relate to whether or not the Bible is against asking Christians in heaven to pray with you.

Yes that verse to avoid excessive grief, but it isn't lie, because Bible don't lie

I think it is fascinating that you refer to this verse as part of the Bible.

earlier on this thread, we talked about how you believed that the holy Spirit had told you which Bible to use.

if I remember right, it was the 66 book Bible that you used.
but do you actually use a 67 book Bible?