The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[PlainWord]

One of the main problems with the futurist view, and there are so many, is a basic lack of understanding of the nature of God's (or Jesus') presence and how they carried out judgment in the past. If futurist would just do a little OT reading, they would start to recognize divine judgment when they see it. We have 4 examples in the OT of God delivering judgment to 4 nations, Edom, Babylon, Egypt, and Israel all in the 6th century BC. In each instance He uses a foreign army to carry out this judgment and He uses the same or similar "sky is falling" "sun is dark" "heaven and earth shaken" type language to describe it. These are "Day of the Lord" events.

EDOM: Isa 34: 4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

BABYLON: Isa 13: The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 “I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity...

EGYPT Ezek 32: 7 When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, And bring darkness upon your land,”
Says the Lord God. 9 ‘I will also trouble the hearts of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many peoples astonished at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid of you when I brandish My sword before them; and they shall tremble every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall.
‘For thus says the Lord God: “The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon you. 12 By the swords of the mighty warriors, all of them the most terrible of the nations, I will cause your multitude to fall. “They shall plunder the pomp of Egypt ,all its multitude shall be destroyed.

ISRAEL Joel 2: Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.

These "cosmic disturbances" did not mean the earth and universe was coming to an end. So when we see the same or similar language to discuss the return of Jesus in Mat 24 or Rev 6 against Israel and Jerusalem, we should not be shocked. We have precedence for all of this.

 

[John146]

romans was to romans
hebrews was to hebrews.
1 peter was to the 12 tribes but also to the church.

I read all the bible. it is Gods word.

Me too. What’s your point?

 

[Kolistus]

I specified the time period from Genesis 12, until the mystery of the grace dispensation revealed to Paul. I hope when you say "the whole of human history", you are also thinking of that time period?

Ephesians 2:12 stated that we who were Gentiles were

strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

That is not clear enough for you? strangers from the covenantS, plural

God sees 2 groups of people before the revelation of the mystery, Jews and Gentiles. If you are not of Abraham, you are a Gentile.

Either you misunderstand the passage or Paul doesnt know what hes talking about.

The ninevites were also dealing with God, non-israelites. And as people have mentioned, there are many examples of this.

 

[Kolistus]

One of the main problems with the futurist view, and there are so many, is a basic lack of understanding of the nature of God's (or Jesus') presence and how they carried out judgment in the past. If futurist would just do a little OT reading, they would start to recognize divine judgment when they see it. We have 4 examples in the OT of God delivering judgment to 4 nations, Edom, Babylon, Egypt, and Israel all in the 6th century BC. In each instance He uses a foreign army to carry out this judgment and He uses the same or similar "sky is falling" "sun is dark" "heaven and earth shaken" type language to describe it. These are "Day of the Lord" events.

EDOM: Isa 34: 4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

BABYLON: Isa 13: The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 “I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity...

EGYPT Ezek 32: 7 When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, And bring darkness upon your land,”
Says the Lord God. 9 ‘I will also trouble the hearts of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many peoples astonished at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid of you when I brandish My sword before them; and they shall tremble every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall.
‘For thus says the Lord God: “The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon you. 12 By the swords of the mighty warriors, all of them the most terrible of the nations, I will cause your multitude to fall. “They shall plunder the pomp of Egypt ,all its multitude shall be destroyed.

ISRAEL Joel 2: Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.

These "cosmic disturbances" did not mean the earth and universe was coming to an end. So when we see the same or similar language to discuss the return of Jesus in Mat 24 or Rev 6 against Israel and Jerusalem, we should not be shocked. We have precedence for all of this.

I have tried to convince people Isaiah 34 is about the destruction of Edom but people will still put it to the future. Dont know how since Edom doesnt even exist as a nation anymore, they probably have to re-invent Edom and put another name on it.

Some people just wont allow for apocalyptic language. It is what it is.

 

[PlainWord]

I have tried to convince people Isaiah 34 is about the destruction of Edom but people will still put it to the future. Dont know how since Edom doesnt even exist as a nation anymore, they probably have to re-invent Edom and put another name on it.

Some people just wont allow for apocalyptic language. It is what it is.

Yeah, it's really sad. They think all these OT prophets had nothing relevant to the people of their day but rather they wrote exclusively about our generation to a time 2500+ years into their future. It's really a sad commentary that so many rather follow the traditions of men rather than the Word of God.

 

[Runningman]

Good day, Absolutely!

So.... are you saying that from the beginning you believed in the pre trib gathering of the church and as you have grown and read deeper into God's word that you are even more certain of this?

The pre-trib doctrine has to be taught to someone for them to find it. Mainly because pre-tribulation rapture is never explicitly stated, but it can be inferred, suggested, or even projected using scripture.

The Bible does explicitly state a post-trib rapture though, in Matthew 24:29-31, making it the standard interpretation of the rapture outside of churches in Western nations. Matthew 24 is the gold standard of eschatology, in my view.

Not that I am trying to ignite yet another rapture debate. Let's just settle on having a disagreement if pre-trib is your cup of tea.

My point is that simply picking up the Bible and starting to read it, the average person won't find a pre-trib rapture. This pre-trib doctrine didn't appear until the 1820s; even pre-tribbers agree it is a relatively new interpretation of the rapture.

 

[Guojing]

Either you misunderstand the passage or Paul doesnt know what hes talking about.

The ninevites were also dealing with God, non-israelites. And as people have mentioned, there are many examples of this.

Of course God has dealt with gentiles before, he used the Persian and Babylon King with regards to Israel.

But Paul is clear, there was no covenants made with gentiles. They were excluded

 

[Runningman]

I have tried to convince people Isaiah 34 is about the destruction of Edom but people will still put it to the future. Dont know how since Edom doesnt even exist as a nation anymore, they probably have to re-invent Edom and put another name on it.

Some people just wont allow for apocalyptic language. It is what it is.

It is my experience that people understand apocalyptic language relative to their world. Many places people live in poverty, war, famine, fear, persecution. To them the tribulation is already here. Other places there is relative civilty, peace, abundance, and prosperity.

 

[PlainWord]

The pre-trib doctrine has to be taught to someone for them to find it. Mainly because pre-tribulation rapture is never explicitly stated, but it can be inferred, suggested, or even projected using scripture.

The Bible does explicitly state a post-trib rapture though, in Matthew 24:29-31, making it the standard interpretation of the rapture outside of churches in Western nations. Matthew 24 is the gold standard of eschatology, in my view.

Not that I am trying to ignite yet another rapture debate. Let's just settle on having a disagreement if pre-trib is your cup of tea.

My point is that simply picking up the Bible and starting to read it, the average person won't find a pre-trib rapture. This pre-trib doctrine didn't appear until the 1820s; even pre-tribbers agree it is a relatively new interpretation of the rapture.

The rapture happens when we die. Since the tribulation ended in 70 AD, it depends on when you died relative to 70 AD if it is pre, mid or post to you.

 

[Runningman]

The rapture happens when we die. Since the tribulation ended in 70 AD, it depends on when you died relative to 70 AD if it is pre, mid or post to you.

If the tribulation happened in 70 AD, then how was it unmatched from the beginning of the world in intensity, whereby no one survived unless it had been cut short? (Matthew 24:21-22)

By comparison, the great flood in the days of Noah wiped out the entire earth except 8 people. Since nothing as cataclysmic as the great flood has happened since the flood, how could the great tribulation, that you say happened in 70 AD, exceed the great flood?

By deductive reasoning alone, the 70 AD event you're referencing couldn't have happened. It's a future event.

 

[Absolutely]

The Jews rejected Jesus Christ, the church is the Israel if God, children of the promised seed Rom 9:6-8KJV

The Jews rejected Jesus Christ, the church is the Israel if God, children of the promised seed Rom 9:6-8KJV

You left out that we were brought in through them and they are temporarily cut off to be brought back in and re grafted into the vine.

All in romans.

Depicted in ruth.
Boaz (Jesus) redeemed them.
Naomi(the jew) was given the offspring of the gentile bride to nurture.
Clearly two separate eternal covenant pple brought together as 2 identities.

 

[Absolutely]

Rev is clear as the 144k are strict Jewish tribes.

No replacement theology.

 

[Jimbone]

The verses that i post....we own them.

there is no mid or postrib rapture verses.....none.

Again you seem to miss the very BIG point that every book in the bible was written BEFORE this happen. That makes it in the future to the people the letters were addressed to. These are not very hard concepts. The only reason you could possibly have for not understanding and dealing with it in truth is you reject the whole thing off hand.

I would also really like to know what you meant when you said "we own them", because this really comes off as you not including anyone that does not believe as you do. Like you are saying "these are ours", like you know we are not saved (we as in anyone the rejects the pre-trib view). I truly hope this is not what you mean. You could have meant "we" as "all of those in Him", even though the whole tone of your argument this whole conversation is you telling us, those that do not believe as you do about eschatology, that we are not saved. So if that is not what you meant then forgive me and please understand how I came to that conclusion.

If what you meant was, between what I believe and what you believe, that YOU own the scripture in a way above "us", I almost have to come to the conclusion given the conversation so far. Please know I mean this with the kind of love only He can give us, but brother you don't seem to know or understand what makes a Christian a Christian. If you think that the thoughts in my head about certain doctrine being dialed in "just right", then you are still under the false worldly impression that the flesh saves us. When God grants us repentance and we are spiritually reborn, as in our dead spirits are given life and reconnected to God the way we were created to be, filling that hole inside we were always trying to blame on past hurts and constantly fill with the flesh to no avail. This rebirth opens our eyes in power giving us the desire to live in and for Him 100% forever. Amen. Please do some soul searching and ask yourself, ask Him if you're truly in Him.

I do not know your relationship with God man and please forgive me if I'm wrong and praise Jesus if I'm off here, but I say this as a man that thought I was a Christian 5 years and did not know Him. I'm just going off your words and your argument here doesn't seem to even address the Spirit at all. Why?

 

[Truth7t7]

One of the main problems with the futurist view, and there are so many, is a basic lack of understanding of the nature of God's (or Jesus') presence and how they carried out judgment in the past. If futurist would just do a little OT reading, they would start to recognize divine judgment when they see it. We have 4 examples in the OT of God delivering judgment to 4 nations, Edom, Babylon, Egypt, and Israel all in the 6th century BC. In each instance He uses a foreign army to carry out this judgment and He uses the same or similar "sky is falling" "sun is dark" "heaven and earth shaken" type language to describe it. These are "Day of the Lord" events.

EDOM: Isa 34: 4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

BABYLON: Isa 13: The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 “I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity...

EGYPT Ezek 32: 7 When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, And bring darkness upon your land,”
Says the Lord God. 9 ‘I will also trouble the hearts of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many peoples astonished at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid of you when I brandish My sword before them; and they shall tremble every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall.
‘For thus says the Lord God: “The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon you. 12 By the swords of the mighty warriors, all of them the most terrible of the nations, I will cause your multitude to fall. “They shall plunder the pomp of Egypt ,all its multitude shall be destroyed.

ISRAEL Joel 2: Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.

These "cosmic disturbances" did not mean the earth and universe was coming to an end. So when we see the same or similar language to discuss the return of Jesus in Mat 24 or Rev 6 against Israel and Jerusalem, we should not be shocked. We have precedence for all of this.

All early church father's (Post 67-70AD) saw a literal human "Man of Sin" and tribulation

They saw a literal return of Jesus Christ from their (Post 67-70AD) lives

The Preterist 67-70AD fulfillment is a false teaching, another doctrine, just another new cultic teaching.

 

[Jimbone]

Rev is clear as the 144k are strict Jewish tribes.

No replacement theology.

You call it that, it is exactly what He told them He was going to do, and they are not cut off. I know a LOT of saved Jews. The church wasn't replaced, it was fulfilled, and EVERY Jew needs Jesus (the ONLY WAY) just like everyone else on earth now. The Jew brought the Messiah, Jesus brought His kingdom, Every Jew is called to Him alone for salvation. To suggest there is another way for the Jew, to act as if they are okay rejecting Jesus is the most hateful, anti-Semitic, satanic position you could possibly take. Not to mention DEAD wrong.

No "You Jews are okay without Jesus" theology.

 

[Truth7t7]

You left out that we were brought in through them and they are temporarily cut off to be brought back in and re grafted into the vine.

All in romans.

Depicted in ruth.
Boaz (Jesus) redeemed them.
Naomi(the jew) was given the offspring of the gentile bride to nurture.
Clearly two separate eternal covenant pple brought together as 2 identities.

Only the 1/3 remnant Jew will be saved in the land, 2/3 will be cut off and die in the future. Many falsely teach "All" ethnic Jews will be saved.

The chosen remnant Jew will be saved and "Added to The Church" who is the Israel of God.

Zechariah 13:8KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed

Romans 9:6-8KJV
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Truth7t7]

One of the main problems with the futurist view, and there are so many, is a basic lack of understanding of the nature of God's (or Jesus') presence and how they carried out judgment in the past. If futurist would just do a little OT reading, they would start to recognize divine judgment when they see it. We have 4 examples in the OT of God delivering judgment to 4 nations, Edom, Babylon, Egypt, and Israel all in the 6th century BC. In each instance He uses a foreign army to carry out this judgment and He uses the same or similar "sky is falling" "sun is dark" "heaven and earth shaken" type language to describe it. These are "Day of the Lord" events.

EDOM: Isa 34: 4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

BABYLON: Isa 13: The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 “I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity...

EGYPT Ezek 32: 7 When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, And bring darkness upon your land,”
Says the Lord God. 9 ‘I will also trouble the hearts of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many peoples astonished at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid of you when I brandish My sword before them; and they shall tremble every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall.
‘For thus says the Lord God: “The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon you. 12 By the swords of the mighty warriors, all of them the most terrible of the nations, I will cause your multitude to fall. “They shall plunder the pomp of Egypt ,all its multitude shall be destroyed.

ISRAEL Joel 2: Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.

These "cosmic disturbances" did not mean the earth and universe was coming to an end. So when we see the same or similar language to discuss the return of Jesus in Mat 24 or Rev 6 against Israel and Jerusalem, we should not be shocked. We have precedence for all of this.

Do you believe the plagues and actions of Moses/Aaron in Egypt actually happened as seen in the book of Exodus?

First born dead, red Sea parting, water to blood, sores upon Egyptians, flies, frogs, Etc?

 

[Truth7t7]

Rev is clear as the 144k are strict Jewish tribes.

No replacement theology.

The Bible teaches they are of the 12 tribes of Israel, as Romans 9:6-8 clearly identifies Israel.

It's you who replaces the church seen below, with fleshly ethnic Jews who aren't God's children.

"They Which Are The Children Of The Flesh, These Are Not The Children Of God"

"Israel The Church, The Twelve Tribes Scattered Abroad"

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

James 1:1KJV
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

 

[PlainWord]

If the tribulation happened in 70 AD, then how was it unmatched from the beginning of the world in intensity, whereby no one survived unless it had been cut short? (Matthew 24:21-22)

By comparison, the great flood in the days of Noah wiped out the entire earth except 8 people. Since nothing as cataclysmic as the great flood has happened since the flood, how could the great tribulation, that you say happened in 70 AD, exceed the great flood?

By deductive reasoning alone, the 70 AD event you're referencing couldn't have happened. It's a future event.

The Flood was not a 'tribulation.' It was a mass death event on a global scale never to be seen again.

The "Great Tribulation" of Mat 24 was a mass suffering event and it was limited to a certain nation, people and race.

tribulation
[ trib-yuh-ley-shuhn ]

noun
grievous trouble; severe trial or suffering.
an instance of this; an affliction, trouble, etc.

The context of Mat 24 was Judea, the people were to flee Judea. The companion passage of Luke 21 makes it clear the time to flee was when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. History tells us, they were Roman armies.

16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Notice the world doesn't end here, as time continues. No nation will ever endure such hardship again as 93% of the Jewish population were destroyed, 600,000 of them died due to famine, disease and by the sword of their own countrymen before the Romans killed anyone. The Roman siege was so bad, the suffering over the top. No country before or after has ever come close to the suffering those Jews trapped inside Jerusalem endured. Notice it was only those in Judea told to flee. Nobody else was warned or in danger. Please see Luke 19:41-44 for further context.

Does this help?

 

[PlainWord]

Do you believe the plagues and actions of Moses/Aaron in Egypt actually happened as seen in the book of Exodus?

First born dead, red Sea parting, water to blood, sores upon Egyptians, flies, frogs, Etc?

Absolutely. You don't?