I DON'T BELIEVE THE MILLENIUM WILL BE ON EARTH, BUT RATHER, UP IN HEAVEN

MyrtleTrees · Jul 3, 2020

There is not a single place in scripture which states that "the heart of the earth" is "hades".

Is the statement made by Jesus in Matthew 12:40 a prophecy?

Matthew 12:40 KJB - For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Yes, the words of Matthew 12:40 KJB are a prophecy, but it is a special type of prophecy ~ a typological [dealing with type/antitype] one.

Notice carefully the prophecy that is clearly given, and the future tense thereof:

“... so shall the Son of man be ...”

Now notice the typological aspect of the prophecy [the historic past portion which was to be repeated in anti-type, or greater reality/fulfillment]:

“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly ...”

This means we can consider the texts of Matthew and Jonah in this light [typological prophecy] and look for those things which will help us identify terms, since prophecies are given in symbol, and things go from natural to spiritual as per 1 Corinthians 15:44-46 KJB.

Let us begin with the word “whale”. A “whale” according to the bible [KJB] is a great sea creature, a sea beast [Genesis 1:20-23; Job 7:12; Ezekiel 32:2; Matthew 12:40 KJB].

A beast/creature in prophetic terms/symbolism is generally a politically gathered/united people group/nation/kingdom [Genesis 49:9; Isaiah 27:1, 46:11; Jeremiah 4:7, 5:6, 12:8, 25:38, 49:19, 50:44; Ezekiel 17:3,7, 32:2; Daniel 7:7,19,23, 8:20,21; Joel 1:6; Micah 5:8; Revelation 13:1,2,3,7,11,12, 17:3,7,8,11,12, etc., KJB]. For a specific example, the Egyptians, as a nation, were designated under the symbol of a great sea creature:

[While reading, notice, God the Greatest Fisherman [doesn't Jesus know how to fish?, just ask Peter, James and John]]

Ezekiel 32:2 KJB - Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou [art] as a whale in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers.

[Pharaoh, as king [a head/husband] of a nation [a body/wife], represents the nation. Not only was this a prophecy of the past, but so also of the Future (events transpiring now; Daniel 11:40-45, 12:1, etc., KJB), and of the end of Satan himself.]

Ezekiel 32:3 KJB - Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over thee with a company of many people; and they shall bring thee up in my net.

Ezekiel 32:4 KJB - Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee.

Ezekiel 32:5 KJB - And I will lay thy flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with thy height.

Ezekiel 32:6 KJB - I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, [even] to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee.

Ezekiel 32:7 KJB - And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

Ezekiel 32:8 KJB - All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 32:9 KJB - I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known.

Ezekiel 32:10 KJB - Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at [every] moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall.

Ezekiel 32:11 KJB - For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.

Ezekiel 32:12 KJB - By the swords of the mighty will I cause thy multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed.

Ezekiel 32:13 KJB - I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them.

Ezekiel 32:14 KJB - Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 32:15 KJB - When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I [am] the LORD.

Ezekiel 32:16 KJB - This [is] the lamentation wherewith they shall lament her: the daughters of the nations shall lament her: they shall lament for her, [even] for Egypt, and for all her multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 32:17 KJB - It came to pass also in the twelfth year, in the fifteenth [day] of the month, [that] the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 32:18 KJB - Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, [even] her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.

Also:

Isaiah 27:1 KJB - In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

Isaiah 27:12 KJB - And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

Now that we have seen that a “nation” [with its king] can be described as a “whale”, a sea creature/beast, let us see how that helps us in Matthew 12:40 and in Jonah, and how it helps us in relating the other terms, “in the heart of the earth”, “in the midst [heart] of the seas”, “whale's belly”, “the floods”, “thy billows” and “thy waves”.

First, let us consider this “earth” and what that means The “earth” [γηςG1093 N-GSF; earth, land, inhabited places, etc] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G1093&t=KJV

Yes, it's clear Jesus died and was buried in the cave that Joseph of Arimathea buried Him in. Yes the Bible uses various words modern people don't always readily understand, such as "heart" in the phrase, "heart of the earth." You mentioned some other verses I hadn't noticed the possible symbolic meaning of - interesting! Such as the reference to Egypt, as referring at least in that passage - to all unbelievers of the world. Similarly, I remember a passage that mentions a place symbolically, to represent all unbelievers, in this passage I know:
Isa 63:1-4
63:1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
KJV
On a different subject, I was trying to figure out who the Hittite and the Elamite symbolically referred to, in this passage. I thought about it last night. I wondered if possibly, the Hittite, might refer to Bathsheba, and the Elamite (ancestors of the Hebrews) to David.
Ezek 16:45

45 Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.
KJV

MyrtleTrees · Jul 3, 2020

birdie said:

Yes, that passage you mentioned, and others in prophetic scriptures, often cause sincere true Christians to make erroneous interpretations of those scriptures of the Bible. As they are more difficult to understand, and so naturally are more difficult for Christians to agree on in all points. Many interpret those scriptures too literally, and without recognizing that they symbolize other things than what they may immediately appear to mean.

Yes, the Bible says we'll reign as kings!
Rev 5:10

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

Eph 2:6-7

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
KJV

Truth7t7 · Jul 3, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

1. In the future Do you believe the existing heavens and earth will be literally "Dissolved" by the Lord's fire as seen below in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

2. Do you believe the New Heaven and Earth will be a New Creation as seen in Rev 21:5 below,

"Behold I Make All Things New"

"I Saw A New Heaven and Earth"?

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

MyrtleTrees · Jul 3, 2020

In a rebuttal, two things are required. One is to show the arguments of the opponent wrong. The second is to show the correct argument. You have not shown my statements to be wrong, and you provided only John 14:1-4 as proof that our Lord stays in heaven. I will let my previous arguments stand, as you too have let them, and show your understanding of John 14:1-4 to be in need of reconsideration.

The Father's House is NOT heaven. Even though He dwells there, it is never designated as His House. It is designated as His THRONE. God's HOUSE is in scripture is:
The Tabernacle of the Wilderness (Josh.6:24; 1st Sam.1:7 etc.)
Solomon's Temple (1st Ki.6:1)
1 Kings 6:1
6:1 And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.
KJV
Zerubbabel's Temple (Jn.2:16)
John 2:16

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
KJV
Christ's Body (Jn.2:21)
John 2:20-21

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
KJV
The Church (1st Tim.3:15)
1 Tim 3:15

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
KJV
My comments, with verses:
True, God does not need a special house built for Him, as He already has a home in heaven. Yet the Bible refers to the temple, or God's people as being in His spiritual house that is on earth.
Acts 7:48-49

48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
KJV
John 14:2-3

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV
1 Peter 2:5

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ
KJV
1 Peter 4:17-18

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
KJV
In this House are many "abodes" (lit. Gk.). The many "abodes" in the Father's House are the Christians. When our Lord said that He was going away to prepare a place, He also said that He would return and "in that day" the disciples would be were He was at that time. Note the present tense in verse 3. That is, the disciples would, "on that day" be in the same place that our Lord was at that very moment. Where He was at that very moment is given by Him in verse 11, "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: ... ." And this were the disciples would be on that day that He RETURNED in verse 20, "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." That is how the "many abodes" are filled, and the many abodes are prepared by Christ's death and resurrection.
John 14:23

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
KJV
Comment: God's Spirit is present with all those who sincerely serve Him.
2 Peter 3:10-12

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

Now we check to see if this is what came to pass. And so it is. Christ dies and goes to Hades in the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40, Eph.4:8-9). On resurrection morning He meets Mary and says; "Do not touch me for I am not YET ascended to my Father" (Jn.20:17). But that night, Jesus appears to His disciples and says "touch me and handle me" (Lk.24:39). So it is clear that our Lord Jesus ascended to the Father that day AND RETURNED. And when He returned, He breathed the Holy Spirit into His disciples and they became the many "abodes" in the House of God - the Church.
True, when Jesus died, He ascended to heaven, where He was with the Father. And then returned back to earth, and remained there a while before ascending again back to heaven to be with the Father. His later ascenstion was necessary for the outpouring of the Spirit which happened soon after, on the Day of Pentecost. Without His doing so, the outpouring couldn't have happened. True, those who choose to serve God in their lives here on earth, are regarded as individual "temples of the Holy Ghost."
1 Cor 6:19

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
KJV
John 16:7

Acts 2:15-18

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
KJV

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
KJV

The gospel of John is not about getting men to heaven. It is all about getting God into man so that the House of God may be build ON EARTH. John's introduction to His gospel in Chapter 1 is how "Bethel" is achieved. "Bethel" means - the House of God.
John 3:16-17

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
KJV
It's true that during this life on earth, those who choose to accept Jesus as Lord (God) and Savior of their life - are in God's spiritual kingdom here on the earth. But there's also His part of His kingdom that is up in heaven. All who serve Christ sincerely and faithfully here on the earth - will end up there to live with God eternally..
Matt 3:2

2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
KJV
Rev 19:16

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
KJV
Heb 11:9-10

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
KJV
2 Cor 5:8

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV
Rev 21:22-24

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
KJV

MyrtleTrees · Jul 3, 2020

Corban said:

There is some confusion on this matter in 1st Thessalonians 4. I hope to shed some light on it. Here is the full text:

13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

The confusion comes from two directions.

First, most of Christianity believes that dead Christians go to heaven when they die.
This seems to be confirmed by verse 14 which says that Christ will bring them with Him when He comes

But if these two points are believed, then verses 16-17 become a mystery, for they say that the dead RISE and meet the living on the face of the earth and TOGETHER they are caught up to meet the Lord IN THE AIR and CLOUDS.

When studying this section of scripture we must see that Paul is not laying forth the doctrine of the Rapture. That Paul did in his short 3-week stay in Thessaloniki in Acts Chapter 17. What Paul is teaching is a correction for the saints in Thessaloniki. They had embraced the teaching of the Rapture, but in the interim, some of them had died. Those left alive thought that the dead would miss the Rapture. Paul says, NO! The dead Christians will not be disadvantaged by death. They would rise from Hades under the earth, take up their glorious bodies on the surface of the earth. There, they would meet the living saints who would be changed in a blink of an eye (1st Cor.15:51-52) into their glorious bodies. Then TOGETHER they would be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds.

So what then means verse 14? Verse 14 is an answer to "ignorance" that Christ will be in the company of the dead saints BECAUSE of the Rapture. It reads, 13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, ... 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." What were the saints "ignorant" about? They were ignorant of the fact that both Enoch and Zechariah prophesied that that Lord would return in the company of His saints (Zech.14:5; Jude 14). And this is made possible by RESURRECTION - "even so" just like the Lord. Verses 15 to 17 TELL HOW this will happen seeing as the dead are in Hades under the earth. The text ends with a solution to their "sorrowing" - comfort! 14 "... that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope ... 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Now, what shall we say to the doctrine of going to heaven when we die? In 313 AD, the Roman Emperor, Constantine, with his empire all but collapsed, made Christianity a State religion. He had learned that the more Christians you kill, the more they sprout up. So his plan was to "leaven" Christianity as Matthew 13 predicted. Christians made up less than 5% of the population, so what he did was keep all the pagan doctrines, but give them names from the Bible. Christmas, Easter, Halloween, the Queen of Heaven and many pagan feasts and concepts were just given Christian names and connected to the Bible. One of the doctrines was that at death a man was weighed in the scales of justice (a sign that we still use for our courts of law today). If he was found to have done more good than evil, he went to a "celestial lodge" among the stars (which they worshiped). If his evil outweighed the good, he went to a furnace under the earth. This doctrine has permeated Christianity since about 500 AD.

To keep the posting short, let us not enter into all the arguments and counter-arguments for this doctrine. It takes a few A4 pages to do that. Let us just see that God's Kingdom is for the earth, not heaven, and thus, our Lord Jesus COMES TO EARTH TO REIGN.

In Genesis 1:26-28 God's plan with man is for the EARTH
This is confirmed in Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2
God promised Abraham and his seed (his offspring) a piece of EARTH - Canaan (Genesis 12, 15 & 17)
God enlarged this promise to Abraham to the WHOLE EARTH (Rom.4:13)
Christians are made seed of Abraham via Jesus Christ (Gal.3:29)
The prophecies of Daniel show God setting up His Kingdom in PLACE of the Gentile kingdoms - the EARTH
The prophecies of John in Revelation show Christ ruling ON EARTH
The prophecies of Isaiah and Zechariah, and more, show Christ ruling from Jerusalem
The meek will inherit the earth
The overcomers will be kings over cities of the earth (Lk.19:17-19)
The New Earth will be ruled by New Jerusalem "coming down from heaven" (Rev.21:2, 22:5)
It is "The Kingdom OF Heaven", not "The Kingdom IN Heaven". "OF" means "FROM", or "OUT OF"
Christ comes to EARTH at His second coming (Zech.14:4, Act.1:11)
The survivors of Armageddon must go up to Jerusalem to worship Christ once a year (Zech.14:16)

I think that the evidence is overwhelming.

I respect your views on this subject, but it is not what I see in the Bible on this subject. "Jerusalem" sometimes means the actual Jerusalem in Israel. Other times, it symbolically refers to God's spiritual kingdom here on the earth. The prophetic scriptures using the word, I believe, refer to God's present kingdom here on the earth, and also sometimes to "the heavenly Jerusalem' - meaning all of God's people up in heaven.

Heb 12:21-24

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel
KJV
Also, all the saints are described as living in the light provided by God's presence in the hereafter in heaven.

Rev 22:5
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

Rev 21:2

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

MyrtleTrees · Jul 3, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

1. In the future Do you believe the existing heavens and earth will be literally "Dissolved" by the Lord's fire as seen below in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

2. Do you believe the New Heaven and Earth will be a New Creation as seen in Rev 21:5 below,

"Behold I Make All Things New"

"I Saw A New Heaven and Earth"?

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Yes, it says a new heaven and a new earth. The old earth and universe will have passed away. The heaven God lives in and that all true Christians are headed for, I believe, is here in this passage referred to in a symbolic sense, probably that in that it will be new to us, and it will be new in the way that it will have us, while it didn't have us there before.

MyrtleTrees · Jul 3, 2020

Heaven doesn't need to change for the better - it's already perfect. So the newness referrred to must refer to it being new to us who haven't been there before, and Jesus said He was preparing a place for us there.

John 14:2-3

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

Truth7t7 · Jul 3, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

1. Do you believe Rev 22:1-2 & Ezekiel 47:12 as seen below is the same place?

2. If (Yes) does this represent the future New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem where the righteous will spend eternity?

3. If (No) please explain?

Revelation 22:1-5KJV
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Ezekiel 47:7-12KJV
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Ahwatukee · Jul 3, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

That's the problem, the 144,000. You have to change it to make in symbolic. You certainly won't be able say to the Lord that He did write a 144,000. But what you are doing is ignoring the plain meaning of God's word. No one told you to change that! What it will come down to is the reason why you didn't believe the number that was given. And the answer will, because of the teachings of men. You did not come to this conclusion, but this teaching has been around for awhile. For I have debated about this many times. What Lord?! You mean this number is exactly what it says? How can that be?

The deception is amazing to me! We have two groups mentioned back to back. The first group is identified as 144,000 Israelites and a second group which no man can count which are all Gentiles, which is making a distinction between the two. But you and others instead of taking them at the plain literal numerical meaning, prefer to ignore that and assign an unknown number to the 144,000.

What you are demonstrating is exactly what is wrong in Christianity today. You're basically doing the same thing that Eve did. God said, "in the day you eat of it you shall surely die." And Satan came along and said "no you won't die." And Eve believed Satan. God says there will be a 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes equaling 144,000 and even lists them by tribe and you and others pull an Eve saying, "no it's not a literal 144,000. Same thing goes regarding the thousand years, which is stated six times. Yet we have those who pull and Eve and say, "nope, it's not a literal thousand years. You introduce symbolism where none is required.

The above number of 144 cubits would be the correct measurement of the thickness of the walls of the New Jerusalem and has nothing to do with the 144,000 Israelites who will be sealed.

The above is in reference to the nations who will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem and has nothing to do with the specific group of 144,000 who will also be there. They are a separate group.

Another thing that you are not comprehending, is that there will be multiple groups on the earth during the tribulation period.

* The Nation of Israel (unbelieving)

* The 144,000 Israelites who come out of unbelieving Israel (gives birth to)

* The Great tribulation saints (All Gentiles)

The 144,000 is exactly that, a literal 144,000. They do not represent all of the saved.

Ahwatukee · Jul 3, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

And it is the context that will bear out the meaning whether literal or symbolic. The problem is that people jump out of the context and apply the meaning of another scripture when there is no reason to do that. An angel says to the four angels who are given power to harm the land and the sea and the trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.” You are not discerning between what is literal and what is symbolic and by doing so, you distort God's word.

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

These 144,000 are true Israelites by birth, i.e. by their ancestry, who come out of the nation Israel as believers in Christ. The first fruits out of ancestral Israel and not Gentile believers. The church is made up of both Jew and Gentile. However, there is also the nation Israel who did not acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah and that who God is going to deal with during the tribulation period, ancestral Israel. The church, which again is made up of both Jew and Gentile, has a different program than unbelieving nation of Israel. The Jews and Gentiles who make up the church, dead and living, will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The unbelieving nation of Israel will remain on the earth during the tribulation period. The 144,000 who come of natural Israel, will be caught up to God and His throne in the middle of the seven years. The beast will be given authority to make war and conquer the great tribulation saints during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

There are different groups with different programs and you are not understanding this.

Truth7t7 · Jul 3, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

In Love, Your Ignore List Speaks Truth Again

(1.) The Bible teaches the 144,000 are of the 12 tribes of Israel, as Romans 9:6-8 clearly identifies this Israel.

It's you who replaces Israel the church seen below, with 144,000 fleshly ethnic Jews.

"They Which Are The Children Of The Flesh, These Are Not The Children Of God"

"Israel The Church, The Twelve Tribes Scattered Abroad"

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

James 1:1KJV
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

(2.) You then falsely claim that the Nations and multitudes seen below in Rev 7:9-12 represents 100% gentiles?

The scripture clearly teaches that the righteous saved seen represent

All Nations, And Kindreds, And People, And Tongues

"ALL PEOPLE" including Ethnic Jews

Revelation 7:9-12KJV
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Truth7t7 · Jul 3, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Once again you falsely teach dispensationalism's (Dual Covenant Theology) as you reference Rev 21:24 and claim the 144,000 will be Jews, and be a separate group in the eternal kingdom?

Your claim is 100% False, as the scripture below gives no reference to "Ethnic Background" but clearly teaches they represent "All" people's, Kindreds, Tongues.

(Those Written In The Lambs Book Of Life)

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Dual Covenant Theology, A False Teaching Of Man

Galatians 3:26-28KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Romans 2:11KJV
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

WithinReason · Jul 3, 2020

garee said:

Thank you for proving my point, in that there is no place in scripture that states that "in the heart of the earth" means "hades". Now, consider the typology:

Question 10.

Was Jonah/Jonas awake (alive) or asleep/fainted (swooned unto death) when he was thrown into the sea and swallowed by the Great Sea Creature?

Jonah was very much awake and alert when he was thrown into the sea and swallowed by the Great Sea Creature ("Whale", etc), even for a long time before he "fainted".

Notice the typological words, events, even as they truly point to Christ Jesus, and the events surrounding Him!

"Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee." - Jonah 1:14

Jonah is awake, even speaking, when thrown into the Sea:

"And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest [is] upon you." - Jonah 1:12

"So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging." - Jonah 1:15

Jonah is awake when the Great Sea Creature swallows him:

"Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights." - Jonah 1:17

Jonah is still awake and praying from out of the midst of the belly/bowels of he Great Sea Creature:

"Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly," -Jonah 2:1

Jonah is still awake and cries unto the LORD because of his affliction that he is experiencing while awake:

"And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice." - Jonah 2:2

Jonah still being awake, recognizes that he is in the "heart"/midst of the Seas and the waters of the sea are over his head, and pass over him:

"For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me." - Jonah 2:3

Jonah is still awake, in praying and crying, looking unto the greater Holy Temple, which is in Heaven, being made by the LORD:

"Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple." - Jonah 2:4

That typifies the separation of Father and Son at the Cross, being "cast out of thy sight", because of sin, "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity..." (Habakkuk 1:13), "For he hath made him to be sin for us" (2 Corinthians 5:21) and "he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" (Isaiah 53:4), "Christ died for our sins" (1 Corinthians 15:3), "his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree" (1 Peter 2:24), "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many" (Hebrews 9:28), see Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; Psalms 22:1, and see also another typological one in Samson, Judges 16:20, etc. Just as Jonah was thrown into the Sea to appease the wrath/storm of God, so too Jesus, chose

to be a sacrifice, for our sins.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Psalms 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jonah is still awake and recounts how even the waters surround his entire being, and had weeds even wrapped about his head in the belly of the Great Sea Creature:

"The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head." - Jonah 2:5

Jonah still being awake, realizes that he is being taken to the very bottom, before he states that his "soul fainted within" in vs 7.

"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." - Jonah 2:6

Before Jonah "fainted", he prayed one last time, giving thanksgiving in v 9, and "remembered the LORD" in vs 7:

"But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD." - Jonah 2:9

Therefore, we see that Jonah was awake most of the time, suffering in "affliction", vs 2, was praying, vs 1, crying, vs 2, understood his condition and surroundings, vss 1-6,9, until he "fainted"/fell asleep, being taken to the bottom, and then "the earth with her bars" begin about him.

Yet after such, then Jonah says God "brought up my life from corruption", vs 6, being a reference to when God "spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land", vs 10, all together, being the "salvation of the LORD", vs 9

Yet there is even more...

WithinReason · Jul 3, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

Now, let's continue with the typology of Joanh/Jonas:

Question 11.

What does it mean when the text says that Jonah "fainted", and if no longer awake, thus asleep, what does the Bible say that it represents?

Let us look at the text again:

"When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple." - Jonah 2:7

This word used is also found in various places, with the following:

"From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock that is higher than I." - Psalms 61:2

"I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah." - Psalms 77:3

"Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them." - Psalms 107:5

"When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me." - Psalms 142:3

"Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate." - Psalms 143:4

"Mine eyes do fail with tears, my bowels are troubled, my liver is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the sucklings swoon in the streets of the city." - Lamentations 2:11

"They say to their mothers, Where [is] corn and wine? when they swooned as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom." - Lamentations 2:12

"Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street." - Lamentations 2:19

In the (co-called) LXX, the Greek word used is "ἐκλείπω", ekleipw, and is also found used in Luke 16:9, 22:32, 23:45; Hebrews 1:12 and means to "fail" or cease/stop of some action or of life.

It also carries the meaning of 'deceased' [cease of life, physically, or metaphorically], 'be wanting', 'abandon', 'quit', 'left out' or to 'fail of strength' [of heart or physically], 'grow weak' and to be in 'hunger' or 'thirst' and is found used in many other places - http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index....=E%29KLEI%2FPW
or
http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index....B7%CF%80%CF%89

Jesus, the man of sorrows:

"He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." - Isaiah 53:3

"[[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?" - Psalm 22:1

"O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent." - Psalm 22:2

"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels." - Psalm 22:14

"My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death." - Psalm 22:15

Jesus said:

"After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst." - John 19:28

Then after one more thing, He said "it is finished" and died, to be shortly "taken down", and then carefully placed in the tomb, where "the earth with her bars" would be about him.

WithinReason · Jul 3, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

No. That is Jesuit Futurism.

144,000 are a specific group of Christians, as specified in the prophecy.

144,000 = 12 x 12 x 1000.

1000 = 10 x 10 x 10

12 = symbolically (service):

“of 12” – Service, Victory over self (Israel; OT – 12 patriarchs & NT – 12 disciples/apostles; prince or overcomer with God) and always being about the Father’s business, rulership (Est. 9:1; as the 12 hours in the day/night; Jhn. 11:9), purification (Est. 2:12), and 6 + 6 were the two stacks of the shewbread, a place for the Father and Son (Lev. 24:5-6); see: Gen. 14:4, 42:13; 1 Ki. 4:7, 18:31; 1 Chr. 25:6,9-31; 2 Chr. 34:3; Neh. 5:14; Eze. 47:12; Mat. 10:5-10; Mar. 3:14-15, 9:35; Luk. 2:42,49, 9:1-2; Jhn. 18:36; Act. 26:7; Jam. 1:1; Rev. 7:3,4-8, 22:2.

10 = symbolically (wholeness), for instance see Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, etc.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

We also see this at the Ending of Scripture, given in the Sons of Israel in the special ordering, and might go something like this:

Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad (were) sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses (were) sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar (were) sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin (were) sealed twelve thousand.

13 Tribes; 1 with no inheritance, 1 with double inheritance.

Revelation 7 - Names in Specifically Given Order:

Judah = “Jew” = “I Will Praise The Lord” (Genesis 29:35)

Genesis 29:35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

Reuben = “Behold A Son” = “He Has Looked On Me” (Genesis 29:32)

Genesis 29:32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.

Gad = “Troop” = “Given Good Fortune” (Genesis 30:11, 49:19) (a troop is a band of persons who brings (back) wealth/fortune through conquering others, or those who overcame others victoriously bringing back spoils/fortune/wealth, etc)

Genesis 30:11 And Leah said, A troop cometh: and she called his name Gad.

Genesis 49:19 Gad, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.

Asher = “Happy” = “Happy Am I” (Genesis 30:13)

Genesis 30:13 And Leah said, Happy am I, for the daughters will call me blessed: and she called his name Asher.

Naphtali = “Wrestling” = “My Wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)

Genesis 30:8 And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.

Manasseh = “Causing To Forget” = “Is Making Me To Forget” (Genesis 41:51)

Genesis 41:51 And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, (said he), hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.

Simeon = “Heard” = “God Hears Me” (Genesis 29:33)

Genesis 29:33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I (was) hated, he hath therefore given me this (son) also: and she called his name Simeon.

Levi ** = “Joined To” = “Is Attached To Me” (Genesis 29:34)

Genesis 29:34 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.

Issachar = “There Is Recompense” = “He Has Purchased Me” (Genesis 30:18)

Genesis 30:18 And Leah said, God hath given me my hire, because I have given my maiden to my husband: and she called his name Issachar.

Zebulun = “Exalted” = “A Dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)

Genesis 30:20 And Leah said, God hath endued me (with) a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.

Ephraim * = “Double Ash Heap” = “I Shall Be Doubly Fruitful” (Genesis 41:52)

Genesis 41:52 And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.

Joseph = “Jehovah Was Added” = “God Will Add To Me” (Genesis 30:24)

Genesis 30:24 And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son

Benjamin = “Son Of The Right Hand” = “Son Of His Right Hand” (Genesis 35:17-18)

Genesis 35:17 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

Dan * = “A Judge” (Genesis 30:6)

Genesis 30:6 And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan.

And therefore, by the special list given in Revelation (Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin) it is seen that the meaning is:

I Will Praise The LORD {JEHOVAH} (Judah) (for) He Has Looked On Me (Reuben) (and) Granted Good Fortune (Gad). Happy Am I (Asher) (because) My Wrestling (Naphtali), God Is Making Me To Forget (Manasseh). God Hears Me (Simeon) (and) Is Attached To Me (Levi). He has Purchased Me (Issachar) A Dwelling (Zebulun) (and) Will Add To Me (Joseph) The Son Of His Right Hand (Benjamin).

Or (my favorite)

Now I Will Praise The LORD {JEHOVAH} (Judah) (for) Surely The LORD Hath Looked Upon My Affliction (Reuben) (and) Granted Good Fortune (Gad) (therefore) Happy Am I (Asher) (even though) With Great Wrestlings Have I Wrestled (Naphtali) (but) God Is Making Me To Forget All My Toil (Manasseh) (for) the LORD Hath Heard Me (Simeon) (being) Joined Unto Me (Levi) (and) He Has Purchased Me (Issachar) (wanting) To Dwell With Me (Zebulun) (and) The LORD Shall Add To Me (Joseph) (also) The Son Of His Right Hand (Benjamin).

Corban · Jul 3, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

Thank you for your reply and your courtesy. In my posting, Jerusalem was just one point of many, and I did not expand much on it. You would be surprised how close we are. I am not sure how you view prophecy, but it is interesting to note that all prophecy that has been fulfilled up to now, has been fulfilled literally and accurately. If that be the case, I think that we can be reasonably sure that the remainder will be fulfilled literally and accurately. I can't think of any mention of Jerusalem from Genesis to the end of 2nd Corinthians that alludes to anything else than the physical, literal city in Canaan.

But you are correct in the New Testament about Jerusalem being symbolic. Jerusalem as a symbol appears in SIX verses - Galatians 4:25-26, Hebrews 12:22, Revelation 3:12, 21:2, 10. And the symbolism is rich. But, I fear that we will derail the thread if we start on it.

God bless.

garee · Jul 3, 2020

WithinReason said:

Thanks informing

Hell is suffering the wage of sin by reason of suffering . Deliverance is have the Spirit of Christ in us that can enable to cry out for a hope in a God one does not see. Making the sufferings lighter be yoked with Christ. Some die with no living hope

I would think to faint would be the kind of suffering "unto death". . . . not dying . Crying out from the valley of despair to a mountain of hope, a place that calls out for strength . Three times with three used to represent the end of a matter. Both Jonas and Jesus are used to show the work of God that works in us to both will and do the goods pleasure of God .

Psalm 102:1-3 King James Version (KJV) Hear my prayer, O Lord, and let my cry come unto thee. Hide not thy face from me in the day when I am in trouble; incline thine ear unto me: in the day when I call answer me speedily. For my days are consumed like smoke, and my bones are burned as an hearth.

That Psalm speaks of the nature of the sufferings and strengthening, the work of two The two that work together to bring the peace of God that surpasses our understanding.

The Mathew part of the three day heart of the earth demonstration shows the gospel a little differently in two accounts Leaving out the world in the first .I believe to show us the actual work of salvation is not attributed to the Satan inspired crowd the second would show the cross version.

It seem the father put the apostles asleep . No outside participation. Prayer is a work of God working in us giving the strength to cry out for answer .

In order to demonstrate the promise Isaiah 53. The Father striking the Son with the wrath of God, the Son in willing submission's cried out for strength and together they finished the three day and night propmised work of God . Then they moved on to the second part of the demonstration the Cross

Matthew 26:37-39 King James Version (KJV) And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?( no) Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Mark 14:33-35 King James Version (KJV)And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

Again the father awoke the apostles when the work was finished

MattforJesus · Jul 3, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

There will be a millennial reign of Christ on earth, and then this heaven and earth shall pass away, and there will be a new heaven and earth, the New Jerusalem.

The disciples asked Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time, and He said the Father will do it in the future, but be concerned with preaching the Gospel.

God said that He will set His glory among the heathen, and the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went in to captivity for their sins and iniquities against God, but after the Jews borne their shame then God will bring all of the Jews out of the Gentile nations, and bring them to Israel, and turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, and they will know the LORD their God from that time forward, and He will never hide His face from them again, which they will be in the truth from that time forward, and never stray again.

Which this has to be the future for Israel is not in the truth.

God said that He will make a full and of all Gentile nations, their ruling governments, but He will not make a full end of Israel, but punish them in part

Since God is going to restore the kingdom to Israel then they will have to be operating for a time on earth which is during the millennial reign.

The Bible says that the LORD shall be King over all the earth, and in that day there shall be one LORD, and His name one, which the heathen shall not acknowledge any religious leader, or god, but Jesus.

Which at that time people will not fight with people, animals will not fight with animals, and be plant eaters, and animals and people will not fear each other, and at that time a little child can lead the most ferocious animal on the planet today and that animal will have no desire to hurt the child.

And the knowledge of the LORD shall fill the whole earth as the waters cover the seas.

And the heathen that God spared when He defeated the world have to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship Jesus as He rules on the throne of David out of Jerusalem.

Jesus said that one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law until all is fulfilled.

Which Jesus is a sinless man, and had to fulfill all the roles of Israel.

But Jesus has not fulfilled the role of perfect King on earth yet, and it must be done on earth.

So Jesus will fulfill that role in the millennial reign, and when the millennial reign is over then heaven and earth shall pass away.

The saints will then go to the place that Jesus created the New Jerusalem, where sin has never been, and sin will never be, and the saints and angels will remember nothing prior to that, and will feel as if they have always been there and nowhere else.

Israel is blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles, and so all Israel shall be saved.

The New Age Christ will establish peace in the Middle East between the Jews and Palestinians, and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel for the Gentile nations will cause it to happen, and the New Age Christ wants them all back on their land, but God means it for good towards the Jews.

When the world takes the mark of the beast, which will be a microchip under the skin linked to satellite, the biometric system that President Trump introduced that can cut down on crime, and locate people, then salvation is no longer available to them.

God will then send Israel 2 witnesses to Israel to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Lord and Savior.

Ahwatukee · Jul 3, 2020

WithinReason said:

This has nothing to do with the false teaching of Jesuit Futurism. The word of God does not require what you are doing above with numerology. Just believe the number of being a literal 144,000, just as it says and stop trying to turn this number into something that it is not.

============================================================

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

=============================================================

There will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes which equals 144,000. That's what the scripture says and that's what it means. There is no need to symbolize or to use numerology to find some other meaning.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 3, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Right.

And this [occurring on the earth] comes AFTER the scene in chpt 4 [UP IN Heaven] that shows:

--[John being told, 4:1] "and I will SHEW thee what must take place after these [things]" (compare wording with 1:1 and 1:19c! The "FUTURE" aspects of the Book, that "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" 1:1);

--4:3, in that context/setting, showing "the breastpiece OF JUDGMENT" [the "first" and the "last" gemstones (jasper, sardine stone)]

--4:4 showing the "24 elders" sitting on "24 thrones" with "crowns/stephanous of gold" and "having been clothed in himation [G2440] white" (taking note of what chpt 3:11 and 3:5 had just said about same)

--this scene, following a "searching judgment" as indicated by the word "WAS FOUND" in 5:4 (same as was used in end of Acts re: Paul before their [human/earthly] "bema seat")

I DON'T BELIEVE THE MILLENIUM WILL BE ON EARTH, BUT RATHER, UP IN HEAVEN

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