Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

If you read Romans 8:5-9, Paul meticulously shows the unregenerate and regenerate ppl. Those who are unregenerate are hostile(KJV uses at enmity, which means to have an ill-will towards) God. They hate Him in their fallen and unregenerate state. They have hearts of stone that cannot love Him. That is why He must first give them a new heart and spirit whereby they can love Him. He has to do a spiritual CPR on them, seeing they are dead in transgressions and sin. He has to divinely quicken them, in this divine quickening He imparts faith and repentance, they exercise them and are saved. All this happens simultaneously.

So God must regenerate first correct in your dogma?

You know total depravity is not "total inability"... under "total inability" the Gospel message has no power to save which is against what scripture states.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

In this dogma God regenerates before they come to salvation.. if God does not regenerate them they have total inability to respond to the Gospel.

They happen simultaneously. No one is regenerated and not saved. No one is saved and not regenerated.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

This means he makes a person who is dead because of sin alive BEFORE sin is taken care of. how is this so, and where is an example of this anywhere in any judicial system instituted by God?

Sin was taken care of at the cross. That is why He can be Just and the Justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.[Romans 3:26]

 

[jackrosie]

Irresistible grace doesn't teach no one resists the Holy Spirit, but that those who are saved don’t resist it all the way until death. Remember, John Calvin didn’t come up with the TULIP. It’s been around since around 1900 or so. I don’t think anyone knows for sure who came up with TULIP. Irresistible grace is not a perfect name for it, but you can’t spell TULIP TULEP. I’d guess that’s why they used Irresistible Grace for that acrostic.

Another name for it is effectual calling. Notice how effectual the Spirit’s drawing was when you received Him. That’s what we teach. When He draws ppl, they come. They aren’t forced to be saved, neither does He drag them kicking and screaming against their will. The Greek word used is ‘helko’(pronounced hel-koo-o) and it means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw with an inward power.

It is also found in John 18:10 when Peter drew(helko) his sword. Did the sword say no when Peter drew it, or did Peter effectually draw it from its scabbard?

It is also found in John 21:11 when Peter drew the net to shore. Did the net say no when Peter drew it, or did Peter effectually draw it to the shore?

It is also found in Acts 16:19 when they dragged(KJV uses drew) Paul and Silas to the market place. Did they say no or did the mob of ppl effectually draw them to the market place?

It is also found in Acts 21:30 when the ppl dragged(KJV uses drew) Paul out of the temple and shut the doors behind him. Did Paul say no when the ppl drew him out of the temple, or did the ppl effectually draw him out of the temple?


Again, this doesn’t mean God drags us to Him kicking and screaming against our wills, but teaches us when He draws them, He effectually draws them to Himself.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g1670

Very well explained...thank you.x

 

[EleventhHour]

They happen simultaneously. No one is regenerated and not saved. No one is saved and not regenerated.

Well that is a departure from classical reformed theology.... and a principle teacher of your faith R. C. Sproul

Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.


These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs.

It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.


https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Very well explained...thank you.x

You may not agree with my theology, but I hope you can at least see where I am coming from. God saves His ppl in spite of who they are. They hated Him, yet He gave them the ability to come to a Him when He drew them. That’s why John 6:44 teaches. All that the Father draws will come to Him. That same Greek word helko is used. So He isn’t drawing everyone indiscriminately, but those He gave to the Son to die for, to atone for their sins.

You may not agree with that, but I do believe that is what the scriptures teach. If you have any more questions, fire away. I’ll do my best to give you a biblical answer.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Am I correct in saying..this is relation to the two people who were drowning?

At death door?.....would they even have thought about faith in that state of drowning?

Hi @jackrosie ...
The two thieves on the cross , one was saved , one was not...
That came to my mind to your question , so I spoke it , hope I have not used it out of context to your question...
...xox...

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

So God must regenerate first correct in your dogma?

You know total depravity is not "total inability"... under "total inability" the Gospel message has no power to save which is against what scripture states.

1 Cor. 2:14 begs to differ with you. The natural man(NIV says man without the Spirit) cannot receive the things of the Spirit. Why? He considers them foolishness. Neither can he understand them. Why? They are spiritually appraised.

 

[EleventhHour]

If you read Romans 8:5-9, Paul meticulously shows the unregenerate and regenerate ppl. Those who are unregenerate are hostile(KJV uses at enmity, which means to have an ill-will towards) God. They hate Him in their fallen and unregenerate state. They have hearts of stone that cannot love Him. That is why He must first give them a new heart and spirit whereby they can love Him. He has to do a spiritual CPR on them, seeing they are dead in transgressions and sin. He has to divinely quicken them, in this divine quickening He imparts faith and repentance, they exercise them and are saved. All this happens simultaneously.

Further with regards to TOTAL INABILITY>>>>>>

The issue is not with the will, but with the ~spirit~ of man.

The spirit of an unregenerate man is dead.

If that man chooses to do any of the works of a regenerate believer in Jesus, he can–from his dead spirit and from his natural soul, ultimately from a source of fleshly self-pride.

The difference is not in the will, but in the condition of the spirit–alive or dead, connected to God’s Spirit or not connected to God’s Spirit.

One of the great errors of theologians is to trust their own theories and logical ideas rather than the Word of God and the Spirit of God.

God did not say that, in the day that you eat of it you will no longer have a will, but rather, in the day that you eat of it, you will die: your spirit will die.
"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced…" -Zechariah 12:10

 

[Magenta]

Elaborate

I think he is stating something I am sure we all know. if these continued things do not stop this thread will most likely be closed for good

The post count is oh so very high...

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Further with regards to TOTAL INABILITY>>>>>>

The issue is not with the will, but with the ~spirit~ of man.

The spirit of an unregenerate man is dead.

If that man chooses to do any of the works of a regenerate believer in Jesus, he can–from his dead spirit and from his natural soul, ultimately from a source of fleshly self-pride.

The difference is not in the will, but in the condition of the spirit–alive or dead, connected to God’s Spirit or not connected to God’s Spirit.

One of the great errors of theologians is to trust their own theories and logical ideas rather than the Word of God and the Spirit of God.

God did not say that, in the day that you eat of it you will no longer have a will, but rather, in the day that you eat of it, you will die: your spirit will die.
"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced…" -Zechariah 12:10

The will of fallen men is bound in sin and Satan. Their spirit is dead and will bound. Satan has them in his clutches. Man doesn’t do his part and Satan then sets him free. Man in the clutches of Satan cannot and will not seek God, seeing Satan has him bound. 2 Cor. 4:4 goes so far as to say Satan has their minds blinded, and cannot see light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

That’s why we sing ”Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I’m found, was BLIND but now I see.“


God has to come in and set him free. Then, and only then, is the will free to come to Him. Until you realize fallen man is enslaved to sin and Satan, your whole soteriology is off kilter.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

These are the questions that make it so I can never get to the place that I chose God, without HIM gifting me the faith to believe. I kinda think it’s where Rosemary and a few others are.

I am not a Calvinist, and have actually never read a single word John Calvin wrote. I’m only going by what I believe Scripture clearly says, without a human understanding of “ but that’s not fair” .

I also do not believe limited atonement is in the Bible. So Calvinists aren’t too keen on me either. Must be doing something right if I have something that offends everyone! Lol

I truly believe the main division is about the sovereignty of man vs the sovereignty of God. Or free will vs predestination. We will not get an absolute answer to this on this side of eternity. It’s THE Gospel unto Salvation that is vital, not this issue.

But ima take a stab at it anyway!
I KNOW I wouldn’t have chosen Christ. I was living a completely sinful life, and always sought new and better ways to further that sinful lifestyle.

My brother got saved in the navy, came home and gave me the True Gospel. I’d like to say I lived happily ever after, but yeah, no.
I continued in my lifestyle for a good while. Then, a couple yrs later, and several requests from him, I found myself at his Church! Lol. I DID the Church thing already. 8 yrs Catholic grammar school and Church. No waaaay I’m doing that stuff again!

Yet there I was. Somehow in his Church! Immediately I could feel something different here. There was no phoniness, people were genuinely Worshiping the Lord, and what I now know, was the Holy Spirit Present! I believe it was there that I became a true believer and Child of God.

So several places, including Jesus Himself, say we are dead. We’re not sick, we’re not weak. We are DEAD!

A dead man can do nothing but be dead. So I know it was ALL the Lord ! I’m not going to speak about anybody else. I just know it was all Him.

This sounds like a lot of people I know and this work that brought them to faith. Sadly I have heard something just like this of people who in the end continued in unbelief. Basically said thanks God but no thanks I got this

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sin was taken care of at the cross. That is why He can be Just and the Justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.[Romans 3:26]

Yep
the one who has faith
notice you did not use the word regenerated so they could have faith. But that they had faith.
this is what we see

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yep
the one who has faith
notice you did not use the word regenerated so they could have faith. But that they had faith.
this is what we see

Faith is a gift of God, right?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yep
the one who has faith
notice you did not use the word regenerated so they could have faith. But that they had faith.
this is what we see

No unregenerate person has faith as it is a fruit of the Spirit, per Galatians 5:22. The unregenerate (a person devoid of God’s Spirit) cannot possess a fruit of the Spirit. If one has faith, they are regenerate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You may not agree with my theology, but I hope you can at least see where I am coming from. God saves His ppl in spite of who they are. They hated Him, yet He gave them the ability to come to a Him when He drew them. That’s why John 6:44 teaches. All that the Father draws will come to Him. That same Greek word helko is used. So He isn’t drawing everyone indiscriminately, but those He gave to the Son to die for, to atone for their sins.

You may not agree with that, but I do believe that is what the scriptures teach. If you have any more questions, fire away. I’ll do my best to give you a biblical answer.

I can see this
but then Jesus also added all who see and believe would have life
in John 6 all those people were drawn to him by the miracles and his teachings. It’s why they chased after him but they could not truly see what he was there for so they never did believe. Because in their minds they did
Not need a savior from God but a savior for Rome
But in the end not everyone saw and believed. And remember one of his own chosen disciples was in his words the devil

Foreknowledge comes to the forfront. Does he draw people he knows will
Never believe no matter what he does?

 

[EleventhHour]

1 Cor. 2:14 begs to differ with you. The natural man(NIV says man without the Spirit) cannot receive the things of the Spirit. Why? He considers them foolishness. Neither can he understand them. Why? They are spiritually appraised.

Read it very carefully and in context ... pay attention to the brilliant mind of Paul who was well aware of the philosophies in his day...

The comparison here is not natural man with the spiritual man ...

the contrast is between human wisdom and divine revelation.

He is stating if you rely on human wisdom (philosophies) you cannot understand the divine revelation.

You will deny this because it does not fit your schema and this Calvinist view is everywhere but the theme/context of this section of Paul’s letter is not “sinner” versus “saint,” or the “unregenerate” in contrast to the “regenerate.”

Your view makes God morally culpable... because it is God's fault if “unregenerate” man never accesses the things of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith is a gift of God, right?

Yep. Offered to all mankind. Because if god did not do the work. We would never have a reason or basis to have faith to begin with.

The work of the cross of conviction of drawing of teaching is all the work of God apart from this there would
Never be faith. Regenerated or
Not

 

[star]

This thread is the only thread I post under. Why? Because it is the most important one to me. Why? Because it shows through posts the most important issue regarding salvation; works or no works. God has a plan. God provided a plan. Man makes it complex and often divisive, false, etc.

It is my hope that the need to "close the thread for good" will not come to fruition because the very purpose for the saving of our souls is dependent on the Truth of the Word of God.

Eternal life through the saving of our souls is more important in my honest opinion that any other topic on this site.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yep. Offered to all mankind. Because if god did not do the work. We would never have a reason or basis to have faith to begin with.

The work of the cross of conviction of drawing of teaching is all the work of God apart from this there would
Never be faith. Regenerated or
Not

And God works to draw all men unto Himself based on the knowledge they have all been given... and some suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
Romans 1