The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Absolutely]

The ten Virgin parable is also about the "Second Coming" and no man knows the day or hour, as you falsely claim this is a Pre-Trib rapture, with millions being left behind on earth knowing the day and hour.

Matthew 25:10-13KJV
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Ironically the parable has no fitment in postrib model.
No destroyed earth
No wartime anything
No ac chasing them or in the picture
No bride taken back to her house (your deal has the bride returning BACK to earth..HER HOME ..the parable has her going to the wedding chamber /heaven)

No taking her into battle
No horses

Another postrib no fit debacle

 

[Absolutely]

Ok
So what about the 2 (the virgins and )noah you imagine you unpacked?

I carefully went with what was there.
You just swept both away.

 

[KJV1611]

The planet Earth does not end.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.

Dan 7:
13 “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away.

Christ is not losing His dominion and His kingdom. The earth abides forever!! Correcting the folly of you futurists is a full-time job.

(Psa 78:69) And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

 

[KJV1611]

Anybody know where the Old Testament prophecy of the rapture is found?

 

[garee]

Josephus recorded the events of 66-70 AD. He recorded actual, historical fulfillment of multiple prophesies of multiple prophets including Jesus and John.

The redeeming work was completed at the Cross. But the wrath, vengeance and judgment for those responsible was not completed until the 7th bowl was poured out. From Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Notice the "It is done!?" Who is talking about political nations?

Revelations is the last book . Josephus is no more a source of eternal faith than would be anyone after John, the last to receive a new revelations . Like Catholicism who believe they are simply a continuation called apostolical succession .

In that way we try the spirits to see if it are of men or God. . There are many historians that say. "thus says the Lord" even knowing he is not longer bringing new revelations

It a evil generation that looks to the outward things as a sign as a wonder . No sign was given .Its was is finished when he said the words. We walk by the faith as it is written. The tribulation like never before or ever again is still doing its work of reforming restoring daily.

The wrath of God being reveled from heaven as the wage of sin will continue until the letter of the law death had served it purpose until the last day

Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Notice then that wrath "It is done!"

The thousand year metaphor is used 9 times through out the Bible Not one is it reference to a literal time period. But rather supports the golden measure of faith (not literal) but the signified language used in parables. They teach us how to walk by faith .Not after the private interpretation of men like Josephus or the Popes .They as one are under the illusion the kingdom of God does come by observing the things seen and not mixing faith (Christ) that works in us.

 

[PlainWord]

Anybody know where the Old Testament prophecy of the rapture is found?

These futurists wouldn't know what the rapture is if it snuck up and bit them.

The resurrection was a singular event whereby all the OT saints were taken out of Hades to heaven in the first century upon the return of Christ's presence. The rapture is an on-going resurrection for those of us who died after the resurrection so that when we die we are immediately taken to heaven, individually.

I get their confusion though. Paul makes it sound like living people are taken up into the sky and transformed. However, Paul isn't saying that at all. Futurists like to hang on this one passage of 1 Thes 4:17 while ignoring others. In John 14, Jesus states, [He] will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also... No one comes to the Father except through Me.

This house is not in the clouds or air, it is in heaven. It is heaven where the Father dwells. Since all the disciples were dead (except John) when Jesus returned, He is resurrecting them, not snatching them alive. The "clouds" and "air" of 1 Thes 4 are the glory clouds which are normally in heaven except for when the Lord's presence comes for judgment. The Glory Cloud marking the presence of God is mentioned often in Scripture (2 Samuel 22:8-15; Isaiah 66:15-16; Psalm 18:6-16; 50:3; 97:1-5; 144:5; Exodus 40:34-38; Leviticus 16:2; Ezekiel 1:4). "Air" is simply another word for heaven. Satan is called “the prince of the power of the air” because before being cast out of heaven, Satan’s throne was in heaven (Ephesians 6:12, Revelation 12:7-9).

Rapture or harapazo or “caught up” as used in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 and Revelation 12:5 is applied to those involuntarily taken to heaven, the realm of God and angels, not the literal sky. They went to heaven because they had died, although Paul later recovered and returned to his flesh body. In each case, this happened after the Cross.

The fact that the saints who have outlived the parousia are raised to heaven immediately after death is supported by Rev 14:13 and 21:24-16. Revelation 14:13 reads, “’Then I heard a voice from heaven say, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.’” Revelation 21:24-26 presents a similar message. According to these verses, the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open in order to forever allow the nations and kings of the earth to “bring their splendor into it.” If the rapture and resurrection occur all at once, as is commonly supposed in futurist circles, how is it that according to Revelation 14:13 and Revelation 21:24-26 people are continuously entering the New Jerusalem long after the resurrection and the rapture? These verses challenge this idea. However, what is stated in Revelation 21:24-26 and Revelation 14:13 are exactly what one would expect if life on earth continues after the end of the age and the saints who have outlived the resurrection are each raised to heaven at the time of their death.

 

[garee]

The planet Earth does not end.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.

Dan 7:
13 “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away.

Christ is not losing His dominion and His kingdom. The earth abides forever!! Correcting the folly of you futurists is a full-time job.

The corrupted dwelling place earth (all of the rudiments and molecules.) will end up in smoke . The new incorruptible dwelling place will appear.

Heavens and earth the new dwelling place. Again it will not be made up of the old corrupted elements flesh and blood .( Clay) those rudiment will not come to mind ever again

Its not heavens and Mars or heavens and Jupiter, non dwelling places

 

[KJV1611]

These futurists wouldn't know what the rapture is if it snuck up and bit them.

The resurrection was a singular event whereby all the OT saints were taken out of Hades to heaven in the first century upon the return of Christ's presence. The rapture is an on-going resurrection for those of us who died after the resurrection so that when we die we are immediately taken to heaven, individually.

I get their confusion though. Paul makes it sound like living people are taken up into the sky and transformed. However, Paul isn't saying that at all. Futurists like to hang on this one passage of 1 Thes 4:17 while ignoring others. In John 14, Jesus states, [He] will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also... No one comes to the Father except through Me.

This house is not in the clouds or air, it is in heaven. It is heaven where the Father dwells. Since all the disciples were dead (except John) when Jesus returned, He is resurrecting them, not snatching them alive. The "clouds" and "air" of 1 Thes 4 are the glory clouds which are normally in heaven except for when the Lord's presence comes for judgment. The Glory Cloud marking the presence of God is mentioned often in Scripture (2 Samuel 22:8-15; Isaiah 66:15-16; Psalm 18:6-16; 50:3; 97:1-5; 144:5; Exodus 40:34-38; Leviticus 16:2; Ezekiel 1:4). "Air" is simply another word for heaven. Satan is called “the prince of the power of the air” because before being cast out of heaven, Satan’s throne was in heaven (Ephesians 6:12, Revelation 12:7-9).

Rapture or harapazo or “caught up” as used in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 and Revelation 12:5 is applied to those involuntarily taken to heaven, the realm of God and angels, not the literal sky. They went to heaven because they had died, although Paul later recovered and returned to his flesh body. In each case, this happened after the Cross.

The fact that the saints who have outlived the parousia are raised to heaven immediately after death is supported by Rev 14:13 and 21:24-16. Revelation 14:13 reads, “’Then I heard a voice from heaven say, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.’” Revelation 21:24-26 presents a similar message. According to these verses, the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open in order to forever allow the nations and kings of the earth to “bring their splendor into it.” If the rapture and resurrection occur all at once, as is commonly supposed in futurist circles, how is it that according to Revelation 14:13 and Revelation 21:24-26 people are continuously entering the New Jerusalem long after the resurrection and the rapture? These verses challenge this idea. However, what is stated in Revelation 21:24-26 and Revelation 14:13 are exactly what one would expect if life on earth continues after the end of the age and the saints who have outlived the resurrection are each raised to heaven at the time of their death.

I pretty much agree except for the timing of the resurrection. I started a new thread on this topic so we could get some OT insight on the translation.

 

[PlainWord]

I pretty much agree except for the timing of the resurrection. I started a new thread on this topic so we could get some OT insight on the translation.

You still going with the main resurrection happened at the same time as Christ's? How do you handle the passage where Paul says that those who claim the resurrection was in the past overthrew the faith of some?

Daniel 12 deals with the OT prospective for the resurrection. There is a place in Job too and David discusses it in one of the Psalms. The rapture isn't taught in the OT because it wasn't applicable to them. The resurrection gets the OT saints out of Hades. Christ defeated death and Hades so ppl don't go there anymore. The rapture only applies to those of us who either outlived the resurrection or weren't born yet when we subsequently die. We are immediately taken to heaven. We don't to wait for a thing like these futurists do. They have Christ bouncing around like a pinball.

 

[PlainWord]

The corrupted dwelling place earth (all of the rudiments and molecules.) will end up in smoke . The new incorruptible dwelling place will appear.

Heavens and earth the new dwelling place. Again it will not be made up of the old corrupted elements flesh and blood .( Clay) those rudiment will not come to mind ever again

Its not heavens and Mars or heavens and Jupiter, non dwelling places

Nope. The new heaven and earth exists now in the spiritual realm. We are citizens of that place. This earth will remain for others to come after us. There will likely be a new age after fire comes down and destroys all the sinners IAW Rev 20.

 

[garee]

This house is not in the clouds or air, it is in heaven. It is heaven where the Father dwells. Since all the disciples were dead (except John) when Jesus returned, He is resurrected them, not snatching them alive. The "clouds" and "air" of 1 Thes 4 are the glory clouds which are normally in heaven except for when the Lord's presence comes for judgment. The Glory Cloud marking the presence of God is mentioned often in Scripture (2 Samuel 22:8-15; Isaiah 66:15-16; Psalm 18:6-16; 50:3; 97:1-5; 144:5; Exodus 40:34-38; Leviticus 16:2; Ezekiel 1:4). "Air" is simply another word for heaven. Satan is called “the prince of the power of the air” because before being cast out of heaven, Satan’s throne was in heaven (Ephesians 6:12, Revelation 12:7-9).

The Spirit of Christ never left. The same spirit of faith that was working in the saints beforehand continued daily working in mankind giving daily bread..

The idea that Holy Spirit could leave this creation would mean it is the end. He holds all things together by the power of His Spirit. (time) While the Son of man was here doing the will of the father working in Jesus to both will and perform the good pleasure of the two as one God .

It created a difficulty which was cleared the moment he disappeared out of sight . In that way no man can serve two teaching Masters the flesh the (temporal) and the Spirit (eternal) .One must be greater in power. Or there can be no peace of God which does surpass our limited understanding.

No man can serve two teaching masters .(1)The things seen, the temporal Son of man, Jesus and (2) the Holy Spirit that worked in Jesus's earthen body.

The Son of man must go out of sight out of mind to rid the confusion and wondering . Is God a man? Wondering marveling is not a source of Christian faith . We walk by faith the un-seen eternal not after the temporal flesh.

God is not a man .The Son of man, our demonstrated Savior left never to reappear for another outward demonstration of the Son of man working as one with the Father.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

All manner or shades of color of "flesh matter" Jesus took away the division like a plague giving each one equals space 6' to the left, 6' to the right and 6' behind. The number of unconverted mankind 666. Not saying it is the sign . no sign is given.

Pray for peace amongst the nations of different families and families of those nations of our one and same God.

Wrestling against flesh and blood simply shows another kind of god/ the serial murderer from the beginning. "You shall not surely die look at me and live" as in . . . .who needs to walk by the faith of a unseen father? The fool Ssssssss.

We must be careful how we hear.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[KJV1611]

You still going with the main resurrection happened at the same time as Christ's? How do you handle the passage where Paul says that those who claim the resurrection was in the past overthrew the faith of some?

Their error was not that the resurrection had already began, their error was that the resurrection was finished. But as you correctly say, the resurrection is perpetual. Their error was the same error as the dispensationalist, and that error is that the resurrection is a one time event and not perpetual.

Daniel 12 deals with the OT prospective for the resurrection. There is a place in Job too and David discusses it in one of the Psalms. The rapture isn't taught in the OT because it wasn't applicable to them. The resurrection gets the OT saints out of Hades. Christ defeated death and Hades so ppl don't go there anymore. The rapture only applies to those of us who either outlived the resurrection or weren't born yet when we subsequently die. We are immediately taken to heaven. We don't to wait for a thing like these futurists do. They have Christ bouncing around like a pinball.

The mass group rapture of people that will never die isn't in the Old Testament but the translation of believers (what they call the rapture) is found in the foreshadow of Enoch. Enoch was translated so that he never saw death, but his body did die.

 

[garee]

You still going with the main resurrection happened at the same time as Christ's? How do you handle the passage where Paul says that those who claim the resurrection was in the past overthrew the faith of some?

I would offer a good example in the work is used of Peter in the last chapter of John . He started a rumor as a oral tradition of the fathers when he went to town, that John would not die, that he had received a incorruptible body the final ressurection The Lord rebuked the spirit of error that overthrew the faith of Peter. and informs us that if every time he had to work to dispel the things of the father of lies that overthrow the faith of some. That the whole universe would not be able to contain the volumes that could be written .

Peter learned to keep the eyes of his heart and ears of his new faith on the author not seen. Look up first than forward>

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. John 21:21-25

 

[KJV1611]

I would offer a good example in the work is used of Peter in the last chapter of John . He started a rumor as a oral tradition of the fathers when he went to town, that John would not die, that he had received a incorruptible body the final ressurection The Lord rebuked the spirit of error that overthrew the faith of Peter. and informs us that if every time he had to work to dispel the things of the father of lies that overthrow the faith of some. That the whole universe would not be able to contain the volumes that could be written .

Peter learned to keep the eyes of his heart and ears of his new faith on the author not seen. Look up first than forward>

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. John 21:21-25

All believer's tarry til Jesus comes. Jesus appears just prior to the death of our bodies and takes to heaven to be with him. It happened to Enoch and all the Old Testament saints and it happened to Stephen and all the New Testament saints.

 

[garee]

Their error was not that the resurrection had already began, their error was that the resurrection was finished. But as you correctly say, the resurrection is perpetual. Their error was the same error as the dispensationalist, and that error is that the resurrection is a one time event and not perpetual.

I would offer also I think in a different way. The resurrection is a one time event the power of a perpetual rising until the last day .

When he does come or leave will he find faith of Christ working in men? .Or will it be the last one has been called and the meeting in the air they receive the propmised of new bodies ? (Luke 18)

 

[PlainWord]

Their error was not that the resurrection had already began, their error was that the resurrection was finished. But as you correctly say, the resurrection is perpetual. Their error was the same error as the dispensationalist, and that error is that the resurrection is a one time event and not perpetual.

The mass group rapture of people that will never die isn't in the Old Testament but the translation of believers (what they call the rapture) is found in the foreshadow of Enoch. Enoch was translated so that he never saw death, but his body did die.

Will have to give this some thought. I viewed the resurrection as the OT saints being set free from Hades all at once. Christ said He held the key to Death and Hades. I view the rapture as perpetual resurrections which happen immediately upon death for those still alive, or not yet born for the Resurrection. Nero was said to have witnessed the Resurrection around 66 AD. That timing works for my views in that I believe the presence of Christ (or the Father) came before the start of the Jewish war and stayed throughout as repeated miracles were happening all through the siege as if being divinely directed.

 

[KJV1611]

I would offer also I think in a different way. The resurrection is a one time event the power of a perpetual rising until the last day .

When he does come or leave will he find faith of Christ working in men? .Or will it be the last one has been called and the meeting in the air they receive the propmised of new bodies ? (Luke 18)

The perpetual rising started with the resurrection of Christ, the last day of Jesus being in the grave. Those Old Testament saints were dead in their trespass and sin UNTIL Christ died and paid for their sins. The resurrection has nothing to do with raining these mortal bodies, it's raising the REAL us, our soul and spirit, to eternal life in Christ.

The dead in Christ ONLY exists in those who died BEFORE Christ paid for their sins.

 

[Jimbone]

Good for you. I wanted to add, my brother believes in a future world-wide great tribulation like all the futurists. 35 years ago, he quit his job and moved his family of 6 to northern Maine. He has a gun in every room and a stock pile of wood and food to survive the inevitable. They barely get by. His kids have grown and moved but he and his wife still live up there in the middle of nowhere, all because of a false belief system. This stuff used to drive me crazy too when I believed like this. Now I enjoy life to the fullest. I'm prudent because we live in crazy times, so I'm heavily armed and have enough food to last awhile but I'm not worried about being asked to take a chip in my head or hand or any of that other nonsense.

Amen, we are now to go make disciples of all nations. Jesus is now seated in victory covered with ALL glory, all authority in heaven........and on EARTH was given to Him!!! Reigning until every last enemy is made a footstool for His feet. THIS is the God I serve, my King RIGHT NOW TODAY ruling in power, changing the hearts of men to proclaim this. Our God is KING now today, and that's something they just can't say.

This was what sent those men to their deaths, not "Oh He is King now..........Just not yet". Completely blind to the fact He is King right now. His Kingdom is on earth right now, and this view point has lit a fire in me like NOTHING ever has, and I have to proclaim it for His glory, so He can use His power through me to draw others into truth, into Him. It rings of truth, fit's everything so crazily well, just the text as it is alone, it's straight up miraculous and I praise Jesus name for it.

I honestly LOVE the way you compose yourself here brother, such a great example of the power of Jesus, glory to our King. Not only that, you truly lay it out so well, and it's become so apparent that they never even consider what you're saying (from what I gather from the comments they make anyway). They don't eve seem to deal with what is being said, they just grab their scriptures rip them out of context then start bombarding you with them over and over. Never actually dealing with ANYTHING you said. This turns into a mindless back and forth where no one is really thinking about anything other than being right.

Personally I've been wrong WAY too many times to think that way.

If you notice, and I know you have, that they will strait up IGNORE and arguments that make too much sense to refute, so instead the feign offence and run away. For good. That question about the "3rd temple" goes unanswered and He will not address it at all.
It's crazy how much their behavior mirror the political leftist and Muslim apologist. Weird huh?

 

[garee]

Nope. The new heaven and earth exists now in the spiritual realm. We are citizens of that place. This earth will remain for others to come after us. There will likely be a new age after fire comes down and destroys all the sinners IAW Rev 20.

Yes, the unseen spiritual realm not made up of corrupted rudiment of this dwelling place. Not a rebuilt or recondition made with used rudiments . A entirely new dwelling place in entirely new heaven. No Sun and Moon, the temporal corrupted time keepers needed . But rather like demonstrated the first three days the glory of God provided the light and warmth needed to develop living seeds. Day four he switched on the temporal thermostat .

Fire is not coming down to destroy sinners .The letter of the law "death" has already performed that work . The letter of the law was cast into the firry judgment .Death will never to rise and condemn though corruption a entire creation .

 

[KJV1611]

Will have to give this some thought. I viewed the resurrection as the OT saints being set free from Hades all at once. Christ said He held the key to Death and Hades. I view the rapture as perpetual resurrections which happen immediately upon death for those still alive, or not yet born for the Resurrection. Nero was said to have witnessed the Resurrection around 66 AD. That timing works for my views in that I believe the presence of Christ (or the Father) came before the start of the Jewish war and stayed throughout as repeated miracles were happening all through the siege as if being divinely directed.

PW the resurrection has nothing do with raising these corruptible human bodies. The resurrection of the dead is the raising of the dead in sin and trespass to eternal life in Christ. The Old Testament saints, even though they were in paradise, were still dead in their sins and trespass UNTIL Christ PAID that debt. After that, they could be raised out of Abraham's bosom and taken directly to heaven with Jesus because they were now COVERED by the blood of Jesus. And now we don't have to go to a temporary holding place, Jesus can snatch us out of this body just prior to death and take us directly to heaven.