The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[TheDivineWatermark]

Open a few history books and you will find all of this. But if we are to listen to WaterMark, we can't trust a historian unless they are as pure as the wind driven snow.

Are you suggesting that I covered such a subject as this ^ ? I've not addressed that kind of point in this thread (or any other thread), that I am aware. I believe you may be mixing me up with another poster [??].




Some of my points have been more centered around: if anyone's viewpoint disregards the chronology issues (found throughout Scripture), it's hard to take them seriously.

[ex: "amil-teachings" and "preterist-teachings" are just two that are notorious for butchering "chronology" (and disregarding "timing words / time-stamps) --Sure, SOME of the things were speaking of the 70ad events, but Lk21:32's "TILL ALL be fulfilled" necessarily must INCLUDE the LISTED ITEMS that verse 24 had just spelled out, and those are items involving MUCH DURATION (including yet another "UNTIL" word); Plus how v.12 informs us that "the beginning of birth PANGS" (8-11) come AFTER the vv.12-24a/70ad events that must precede those... Whereas your view takes these things OUT OF SEQUENCE]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

While not all dispensationalists believe in the Rapture. All those who teach the Rapture also believe in premillennialism. Both groups use Israel's modern statehood status of 1948 to be a beginning of a countdown to the end.

No, not the BEGINNING of a countdown... that started way back at the time of His ASCENSION, as I'd said here:

[quoting old post]

I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):

Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel] -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim

and like a young lion to the house of Judah.

I, even I, will tear them to pieces

and then go away.

I will carry them off

where no one can rescue them.

15 Then I will return to My place

until they admit their guilt and seek My face;

in their affliction

they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”

6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.

For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,

but He will heal us [Israel];

He has wounded us [Israel],

but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.

2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]

on/in the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]

that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.

3 So let us [Israel] know—

let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.

As surely as the sun rises,

He will appear;

He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,

like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].


____________

[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]

"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.

"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in my Post #71 of this thread (EDIT: NOT THIS thread)]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.

"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation. [TDW: During the trib years, not just the "GREAT tribulation/2nd HALF"] Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on [/in] the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)
[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine]

____________

[note the passages I've listed before that *LIKEN this UNTO a RESURRECTION ^ (re: Israel's "FUTURE"): Romans 11:15(25-29); Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Daniel 12:1-4,10; John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); Hosea 5:15-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... which is "THE LAST" of these three (counting from His resurrection/ascension [32ad], per Hos5:15), or "THE LAST" of seven (if you count from creation/Genesis 1, i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9 (see Ex31:13,17 "it [the sabbath/7th day] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"), aka the Millennial Day of REST, that is, the 7th Millennium, or "THE LAST")]

I believe it is a big mistake to view the phrase "The Last Day" to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"

[end quoting old post]

All premillennialists, rapturists and dispensationalists alive today believe the Bible reveals the general era of when Christ will return.

"after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" (but not "singular 24-hr days" [re: ISRAEL]... so, yeah... we are about there )

All Christians, with any sense, should reject all these false notions of God illuminating man and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine.

Yes, that is why I am continually pointing to THE BIBLE rather than to "what some guy [thinks he] SAW [somewhere]" but which does not align with what Scripture itself spells out.

 

[PlainWord]

CBS has used fake footage and fake CV19 death numbers to promote their worldview and agenda. You walk a dangerous maze of deception when you count on secular sources for biblical insight, the truth will always be slanted to their worldview.

Exactly. But to record a non-political new story like a building burning down (or a temple), they are probably reliable.

 

[PlainWord]

Are you suggesting that I covered such a subject as this ^ ? I've not addressed that kind of point in this thread (or any other thread), that I am aware. I believe you may be mixing me up with another poster [??].




Some of my points have been more centered around: if anyone's viewpoint disregards the chronology issues (found throughout Scripture), it's hard to take them seriously.

[ex: "amil-teachings" and "preterist-teachings" are just two that are notorious for butchering "chronology" (and disregarding "timing words / time-stamps) --Sure, SOME of the things were speaking of the 70ad events, but Lk21:32's "TILL ALL be fulfilled" necessarily must INCLUDE the LISTED ITEMS that verse 24 had just spelled out, and those are items involving MUCH DURATION (including yet another "UNTIL" word); Plus how v.12 informs us that "the beginning of birth PANGS" (8-11) come AFTER the vv.12-24a/70ad events that must precede those... Whereas your view takes these things OUT OF SEQUENCE]

Got you confused with LackofTruth7t7. Sorry about that. Lack of Truth is a history denier.

 

[KJV1611]

Exactly. But to record a non-political new story like a building burning down (or a temple), they are probably reliable.

I get ya PW.

 

[PlainWord]

The book of Joel lays out 70 AD pretty well, do you see the Father and Son's presence in Joel?

Oh Joel, I thought you meant Jude. In Joel, clearly the Lord was there. It can't be the Day of the Lord without the Lord

 

[KJV1611]

No, not the BEGINNING of a countdown... that started way back at the time of His ASCENSION, as I'd said here:

[quoting old post]

I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):

Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel] -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim

and like a young lion to the house of Judah.

I, even I, will tear them to pieces

and then go away.

I will carry them off

where no one can rescue them.

15 Then I will return to My place

until they admit their guilt and seek My face;

in their affliction

they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”

6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.

For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,

but He will heal us [Israel];

He has wounded us [Israel],

but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.

2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]

on/in the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]

that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.

3 So let us [Israel] know—

let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.

As surely as the sun rises,

He will appear;

He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,

like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].


____________

[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]

"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.

"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in my Post #71 of this thread (EDIT: NOT THIS thread)]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.

"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation. [TDW: During the trib years, not just the "GREAT tribulation/2nd HALF"] Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on [/in] the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)
[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine]

____________

[note the passages I've listed before that *LIKEN this UNTO a RESURRECTION ^ (re: Israel's "FUTURE"): Romans 11:15(25-29); Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Daniel 12:1-4,10; John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); Hosea 5:15-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... which is "THE LAST" of these three (counting from His resurrection/ascension [32ad], per Hos5:15), or "THE LAST" of seven (if you count from creation/Genesis 1, i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9 (see Ex31:13,17 "it [the sabbath/7th day] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"), aka the Millennial Day of REST, that is, the 7th Millennium, or "THE LAST")]

I believe it is a big mistake to view the phrase "The Last Day" to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"

[end quoting old post]



"after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" (but not "singular 24-hr days" [re: ISRAEL]... so, yeah... we are about there )



Yes, that is why I am continually pointing to THE BIBLE rather than to "what some guy [thinks he] SAW [somewhere]" but which does not align with what Scripture itself spells out.

(Hos 5:15) I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Do you consider 2000 years later to be "seeking him early"?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Oh Joel, I thought you meant Jude. In Joel, clearly the Lord was there. It can't be the Day of the Lord without the Lord

For the record, do you believe that ANY of the 'Day of the Lord' time-frames lasted only "a singular 24-hr day"? (I don't)

 

[KJV1611]

Oh Joel, I thought you meant Jude. In Joel, clearly the Lord was there. It can't be the Day of the Lord without the Lord

The day of the Lords vengeance doesn't mean that He and Jesus returned in presence, it means that's when the wrath was poured out.

 

[KJV1611]

Would some futurist explain how these verses apply to Jews 2000 years in the future and not to those Jews 2000 years ago?

(Amo 5:20) Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
(Amo 5:21) I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
(Amo 5:22) Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
(Amo 5:23) Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
(Amo 5:24) But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
(Amo 5:25) Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
(Amo 5:26) But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

(Hos 5:15) I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Do you consider 2000 years later to be "seeking him early"?

The text says, "I will go to My place, TILL they acknowledge their offence..." then goes on to say, "IN THEIR AFFLICTION, they will seek Me early / earnestly [H7836]".

H7836 -


7836 [e]
yə·ša·ḥă·run·nî.
יְשַׁחֲרֻֽנְנִי׃
they will earnestly seek Me
V‑Piel‑Imperf‑3mp | 1cs, Pn

[and]

H7836 -
shachar: to look early or diligently for
Original Word: שָׁחַר
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shachar
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-khar')
Definition: to look early or diligently for

[and]

diligently (1), diligently seek (1), diligently seeks (1), earnestly seek (1), searched diligently (1), seek (2), seek me diligently (1), seek you earnestly (1), seek your earnestly (1), seeking (1), seeks you diligently (1).


[quotes taken from BibleHub]

____________

This is only a PART of the reason I keep saying they will "seek" Him early in the trib, and that even Ezekiel 39:7 (which "war" I believe corresponds to the SECOND SEAL "wars" [Rev6] EARLY in the trib yrs and paralleling the wording found also in Genesis 45:1[6],[46:2] in the SECOND YEAR of "Joseph's 7-yr famine"), but that a major IMPETUS that brings them to their Messiah is the event of "our Rapture"... and FOLLOWING which, is when they [many of them, not all] come to faith, and then the passages speaking of the trib yrs spell out what will take place from that point on... etc etc...)


"And there STOOD NO MAN WITH him, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN unto his brethren." - Gen45:1

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ "So will *I MAKE* my holy name *KNOWN* in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" - Ezekiel 39:7a

 

[PlainWord]

No, not the BEGINNING of a countdown... that started way back at the time of His ASCENSION, as I'd said here:

[quoting old post]

I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):

Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel] -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim

and like a young lion to the house of Judah.

I, even I, will tear them to pieces

and then go away.

I will carry them off

where no one can rescue them.

15 Then I will return to My place

until they admit their guilt and seek My face;

in their affliction

they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”

6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.

For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,

but He will heal us [Israel];

He has wounded us [Israel],

but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.

2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]

on/in the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]

that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.

3 So let us [Israel] know—

let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.

As surely as the sun rises,

He will appear;

He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,

like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].


____________

[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]

"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.

"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in my Post #71 of this thread (EDIT: NOT THIS thread)]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.

"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation. [TDW: During the trib years, not just the "GREAT tribulation/2nd HALF"] Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on [/in] the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)
[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine]

____________

[note the passages I've listed before that *LIKEN this UNTO a RESURRECTION ^ (re: Israel's "FUTURE"): Romans 11:15(25-29); Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Daniel 12:1-4,10; John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); Hosea 5:15-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... which is "THE LAST" of these three (counting from His resurrection/ascension [32ad], per Hos5:15), or "THE LAST" of seven (if you count from creation/Genesis 1, i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9 (see Ex31:13,17 "it [the sabbath/7th day] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"), aka the Millennial Day of REST, that is, the 7th Millennium, or "THE LAST")]

I believe it is a big mistake to view the phrase "The Last Day" to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"

[end quoting old post]



"after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" (but not "singular 24-hr days" [re: ISRAEL]... so, yeah... we are about there )



Yes, that is why I am continually pointing to THE BIBLE rather than to "what some guy [thinks he] SAW [somewhere]" but which does not align with what Scripture itself spells out.

You are quoting Hosea as if he has something to say about our future? Really???? Do you know when he lived? Try the 8th century BC. Hosea had a lot of harsh warnings for the Northern Kingdom due to their idolatry. The prophet identified the kings that ruled during his prophetic ministry. The first four—Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah—reigned over the southern kingdom of Judah from 790 BC to 686 BC, while Jeroboam II ruled the northern kingdom of Israel from 782 BC to 753 BC. This indicates that Hosea lived in the middle to late eighth century BC (755–715 BC or so), making him a contemporary of the prophets Isaiah and Micah. Hosea directed the early portion of his prophetic warnings to Jeroboam II, a descendant of the house of Jehu whose son, Zechariah, would soon come to ruin. So, maybe he had something to say to the people of his day given the bumpy road Israel was on until their ultimate destruction in 70 AD.

Do you really think Hosea would skip over the pending fall of Israel, first the north, then the south, jump over the Maccabees and the fall of 70 AD to talk about 21st century Israel? He wrote before the Babylonian exile and way before the 70 AD destruction of Israel. So, you think he was silent about those enormous disasters because of some moron's commentary?

Structured around five cycles of judgment and restoration, the book of Hosea makes clear its repetitious theme: though God will bring judgment on sin, He will always bring His people back to Himself. More than any other prophet, Hosea linked his message closely with his personal life. By marrying a woman he knew would eventually betray his trust and by giving his children names that sent messages of judgment on Israel, Hosea’s prophetic word flowed out of the life of his family. The cycle of repentance, redemption, and restoration evident in Hosea’s prophecy—and even his marriage - was intimately connected.

Jerusalem would be taken 5 times between the days of Hosea and 70 AD. It was first taken by Babylon soon after Hosea's prophesies, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; then finally Titus came in 70 AD and left it desolate. Was Hosea silent about these near future events. Which would have been more relevant to the people of his day, those events or events future to us? I did a key word search of the Bible just now for Benjamin Netanyahu. Love the man but guess what, he isn't found anywhere!!!

Study history gentlemen!! This is really getting embarrassing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are quoting Hosea as if he has something to say about our future? Really????

Israel's "future," to be specific.

Do you know when he lived? Try the 8th century BC. Hosea had a lot of harsh warnings for the Northern Kingdom due to their idolatry. The prophet identified the kings that ruled during his prophetic ministry. The first four—Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah—reigned over the southern kingdom of Judah from 790 BC to 686 BC, while Jeroboam II ruled the northern kingdom of Israel from 782 BC to 753 BC. This indicates that Hosea lived in the middle to late eighth century BC (755–715 BC or so), making him a contemporary of the prophets Isaiah and Micah. Hosea directed the early portion of his prophetic warnings to Jeroboam II, a descendant of the house of Jehu whose son, Zechariah, would soon come to ruin. So, maybe he had something to say to the people of his day given the bumpy road Israel was on until their ultimate destruction in 70 AD.

Do you really think Hosea would skip over the pending fall of Israel, first the north, then the south, jump over the Maccabees and the fall of 70 AD to talk about 21st century Israel? He wrote before the Babylonian exile and way before the 70 AD destruction of Israel. So, you think he was silent about those enormous disasters because of some moron's commentary?

Structured around five cycles of judgment and restoration, the book of Hosea makes clear its repetitious theme: though God will bring judgment on sin, He will always bring His people back to Himself. More than any other prophet, Hosea linked his message closely with his personal life. By marrying a woman he knew would eventually betray his trust and by giving his children names that sent messages of judgment on Israel, Hosea’s prophetic word flowed out of the life of his family. The cycle of repentance, redemption, and restoration evident in Hosea’s prophecy—and even his marriage - was intimately connected.

Jerusalem would be taken 5 times between the days of Hosea and 70 AD. It was first taken by Babylon soon after Hosea's prophesies, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; then finally Titus came in 70 AD and left it desolate. Was Hosea silent about these near future events. Which would have been more relevant to the people of his day, those events or events future to us? I did a key word search of the Bible just now for Benjamin Netanyahu. Love the man but guess what, he isn't found anywhere!!!

Remember the following verses (in Romans 9)?

25 As He also says in Hosea:

“I will call that which is not My people, My people;

and her not having been loved, having been loved,”h

[THIS ^ is speaking of "the Gentiles"... Comp Hosea 2:23b]



26 and,

“It will happen that in the place where it was said to them,

‘You are not My people,’ [Lo Ammi]

there they will be called

‘sons of the living God.’”i

[THIS ^ is speaking of "Israel"... Comp Hosea 1:10... as well as 2:23a "SOW her unto Me in the earth" (and other "SOW/SOWN/SEW/SEWN... in the earth" passages, aka "SCATTERED" [including Luke 21:24a "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS, and Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL..." and then see Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23[24,28], as I've listed, which states, "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land" and "And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; AND YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD"); then see also Heb8:8-12 and Romans 11:25-29[15] "when I shall take away THEIR SINS" and "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL"]

Study history gentlemen!! This is really getting embarrassing.

Acts 3:21 - "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."

 

[PlainWord]

For the record, do you believe that ANY of the 'Day of the Lord' time-frames lasted only "a singular 24-hr day"? (I don't)

I don't either. There have been many Days of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is a term for a day of divine judgment. We see it often in the OT. The Day of Christ was the period of Israel's last destruction.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Acts 3:21 - "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."

[continuing from my previous post]

[posting a "repeat" from this thread]


… so "the TIMES of the Gentiles" does not refer to what is commonly called "the church age" (it has nothing to do with that); but instead refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think: Neb's dream/statue/image, and Neb as "head of gold") [...and distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles"]


"the TIMES of the Gentiles" ENDS at the end of the trib (Lk21:24b / Rev11:2), when Daniel 2:34-35 takes place.


_____

[quoting Gaebelein, on Daniel 2]

"The great man image is the prophetic symbol of the “times of the Gentiles.” This expression “The times of the Gentiles” is not found in the book of Daniel, but it is a New Testament phrase. Our Lord used it exclusively. In that part of His prophetic discourse which is reported in the Gospel of Luke and which relates to the fall of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the nation, our Lord said: “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled” Luke 21:24. Now, the times of the Gentiles did not begin when Jerusalem rejected the Lord from heaven. Our Lord does not say that the times of the Gentiles were then ushered in. The times of the Gentiles started with the Babylonian captivity by Nebuchadnezzar. The glory of the Lord departed from Jerusalem. The other great prophet of the captivity, Ezekiel, beheld the departure of the Shekinah. […]"

[AND... still quoting further]

"Historical Events ([chpts] 3-6)

The four chapters [chpt 3-6] which follow the great dream of Nebuchadnezzar are of a historical character. They do not contain direct prophecies, but record certain events which transpired during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, his successor and grandson Belshazzar, and Darius, the Mede. [...]
[...]

"These four chapters then give us historical events. Each has a prophetic meaning, though direct prophecy is not found in them.
"These chapters describe the moral conditions which held sway during the two first world empires; they indicate prophetically the moral conditions which continue to the end of the times of the Gentiles. Five things may be traced in these four chapters: The moral characteristics of the times of the Gentiles; what will happen at the close of these times; the faithful remnant in suffering; their deliverance and the Gentiles acknowledging God, as King and the God of heaven."

[end quoting; bold and underline mine, bracketed inserts mine]

[end quoting the earlier post from this thread]

____________

"your house IS LEFT TO YOU desolate"

[this happened around the time of His "CUT OFF" circumstances (His arrest/trials/death on the Cross), Dan9:25a--where the 69 Weeks total were concluded on Palm Sunday--when He DID the Zech9:9 thing, and SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (both pertaining to "the city/Jerusalem," just as the Dan9:24-27 prophecy pertains)]

 

[PlainWord]

Israel's "future," to be specific.


Remember the following verses (in Romans 9)?

25 As He also says in Hosea:

“I will call that which is not My people, My people;

and her not having been loved, having been loved,”h

[THIS ^ is speaking of "the Gentiles"... Comp Hosea 2:23b]



26 and,

“It will happen that in the place where it was said to them,

‘You are not My people,’ [Lo Ammi]

there they will be called

‘sons of the living God.’”i

[THIS ^ is speaking of "Israel"... Comp Hosea 1:10... as well as 2:23a "SOW her unto Me in the earth" (and other "SOW/SOWN/SEW/SEWN... in the earth" passages, aka "SCATTERED" [including Luke 21:24a "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS, and Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL..." and then see Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23[24,28], as I've listed, which states, "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land" and "And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; AND YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD"); then see also Heb8:8-12 and Romans 11:25-29[15] "when I shall take away THEIR SINS" and "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL"]



Acts 3:21 - "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."

Man, you are all over the place. Romans 9 is speaking of their present times and very near future as was Luke 21. God was about to judge the disbelieving Jews after He was longsuffering with them nearly 40 years after they killed His Son. God was about to end the covenant He had with national Israel and give the kingdom to those who believed in Christ, Jew and Gentile alike as embodied as the Church. Acts 3 foretells their destruction during the siege of 70 AD and during the aftermath of Titus' desolation whereby Titus killed every priest left standing. Only a remnant of 98,000 were left alive and they were taken captive to Rome. I believe all of them converted to Christianity by this time because of the statement of Acts 3 that those who would not hear the words of Jesus would be utterly destroyed from the people. These would likely be the elect for which the days were shortened.

Those who escaped during the siege, went all over the place, many back to Egypt where they became slaves again.

Ezek 37 uses metaphorical language to discuss Israel's return to their land after their Babylonian captivity. Israel was to rise from its ashes, so to speak, and become a powerful military country again, which it did. You need to put the Bible into historical context. You can't jumble everything up together and turn it into prophesy of our future. Prophets were sent to warn people about to be judged. They had pertinent things to say to those doing wrong. They were not writing to the world and were not covering events not relevant to their people and their descendants. There are no real prophets in our world today.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[again]
TheDivineWatermark said:
Acts 3:21 - "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. the OT prophets]



[again, Peter was addressing a people who had OVERLOOKED/BYPASSED His "SUFFERING SERVANT" aspect and were anticipating ONLY His "reigning KING" aspect... and Peter is saying that the OT prophets spoke (ALSO) of His "SUFFERING SERVANT" aspect, which aspect they "missed," thus THEMSELVES "fulfilling" those very things, by having Him put to death--"spoke of THESE days" (His "SUFFERING SERVANT" 1st advent days [v.24])]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@PlainWord ,

So... are you saying that even as far as "Revelation 19" has occurred in past history (surrounding the 70ad events)??

 

[PlainWord]

… so "the TIMES of the Gentiles" does not refer to what is commonly called "the church age" (it has nothing to do with that); but instead refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think: Neb's dream/statue/image, and Neb as "head of gold") [...and distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles"]

This is specifically, and without doubt, the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 66-70 AD. From the time this was written, the next time Jerusalem was surrounded by a Gentile power was this time period. The amount of time they were surrounded matches other places as 3.5 years.

In that part of His prophetic discourse which is reported in the Gospel of Luke and which relates to the fall of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the nation, our Lord said: “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled” Luke 21:24. Now, the times of the Gentiles did not begin when Jerusalem rejected the Lord from heaven. Our Lord does not say that the times of the Gentiles were then ushered in.

When was the next time Jerusalem fell after Luke said this? Did they fall by sword, were they led away captive? No, it didn't happen when the Jerusalem rejected the Lord. It began in 66 AD when Nero ordered it.

"your house IS LEFT TO YOU desolate"

Was the temple left desolate in 70 AD? Just an idea.

SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (both pertaining to "the city/Jerusalem," just as the Dan9:24-27 prophecy pertains)]

Yeah, like 70 AD. Jerusalem was burned (consumed by fire) and left desolate. When you have a perfectly good temple standing in what ever year Luke wrote get burned to the ground a few short years later, why not run with it? Why look for some future 3rd temple that nobody wrote about and look for another burning? Can it be any clearer?