Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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I'm not saying Scripture only applies to a certain place/time period. It's the extension from a type-case to a universal picture of mankind. Isaiah's words have to do with a situation in which there is a tangible sin like idolatry that corrupts any work that is done.

What I'm saying aren't things I'm simply making up whole-cloth. James is the one who says "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. " and "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. " "Faith" that doesn't produce change is not faith, and change means works.

The question centers around whether James is speaking of the same justification as Paul. I've given the reasons from James that I believe he is. No one has offered any counter to those contextual issues.

Instead there's insistence on a peculiar reading of Paul as all-encompassing, a reading that didn't exist until 1517, and then dismissing James. Or even worse, a writing off of James entirely to say that only Paul's writings apply to the body of Christ.
Yawwwnnnnn, JAMES is addressing HEBREWS scattered abroad.....THEY HAVE the same PROBLEM TODAY they had then....a mere BELIEF IN GOD and NO SAVING FAITH...geesh......

show me your faith <--JAMES IS NOT GOD.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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So then James is a liar? Why are James' words subject to some mysterious "context" that isn't present in his letter but Paul's aren't?

It seems to me the conflict is rather simple to address since Paul's removal of works is about merit and James' use of works is about fidelity. Paul even follows up with his removal of works in salvation to speak of the works we are to do " For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works..." So no, Paul isn't lying but his point isn't the same as James'.
Context, audience, type of faith being addressed.....all which you reject and deny.....keep conflating James and Paul.....!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Yawwwnnnnn, JAMES is addressing HEBREWS scattered abroad.....THEY HAVE the same PROBLEM TODAY they had then....a mere BELIEF IN GOD and NO SAVING FAITH...geesh......

show me your faith <--JAMES IS NOT GOD.....
Concerning Israel during the tribulation before the second coming.

Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I'm not saying Scripture only applies to a certain place/time period. It's the extension from a type-case to a universal picture of mankind. Isaiah's words have to do with a situation in which there is a tangible sin like idolatry that corrupts any work that is done.

What I'm saying aren't things I'm simply making up whole-cloth. James is the one who says "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. " and "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. " "Faith" that doesn't produce change is not faith, and change means works.

The question centers around whether James is speaking of the same justification as Paul. I've given the reasons from James that I believe he is. No one has offered any counter to those contextual issues.

Instead there's insistence on a peculiar reading of Paul as all-encompassing, a reading that didn't exist until 1517, and then dismissing James. Or even worse, a writing off of James entirely to say that only Paul's writings apply to the body of Christ.
Do you believe in the pre tribulation rapture of the body of Christ?

From your doctrine Presented so far, my Guess is no?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Is it just me, or are you and @Bbrdrd actually saying the same thing? I don't understand the opposition of thought between you...

Just because faith will naturally produce a result by the means of inner change, doesn't mean we are saved BY works. Rather when I first noticed my life getting changed I thought, yeah Jesus really did change me, so if I had any doubts I then knew for fact that I really was a new creature, I could then see what I first believed. It's actually focusing on the first fruits of His word taking root in some areas of my life that I kept my sanity and faith, believing that Jesus will also take care of the rest and shepherd me through, in the first period of my believer life when I encountered a lot of sinless perfectionism teachings. But my new behaviors didn't save me nor did they "maintain" salvation. That does not even compute you're either saved forever or you are not born again yet, there's no "maintaining" salvation. Jesus saved me back when I had no works to present. And any work that might have followed is His work on me, really. I don't think to believe this is works salvation. Am I wrong and if so, where?
Some Christians interpret James thru the lens of Paul.

Others interpret Paul thru the lens of James.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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Some Christians interpret James thru the lens of Paul.

Others interpret Paul thru the lens of James.
Everyone should just hear what the LORD says and do it.

They should use lenses only if they have problems with their eyesight.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Everyone should just hear what the LORD says and do it.

They should use lenses only if they have problems with their eyesight.
True, but remember, in the movie playing in our heads, we are always the protagonist and the one who disagrees with us, the antagonist. ;)
 
Jan 12, 2019
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And some just read Paul and James in context.
That will be the 3rd category, those who believe that Paul is writing to the Body of Christ, while James is writing to the 12 tribes who will be going thru the great Tribulation, after the Body of Christ is raptured. ;)
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Yes, so my point is, from the perspective of the movie in our head, we are always the protagonist, thus by definition, we are always the ones who agree with the scriptures. ;)
Thankfully those who read with the guidance of the Holy Spirit are the ones who agree with scripture.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
That will be the 3rd category, those who believe that Paul is writing to the Body of Christ, while James is writing to the 12 tribes who will be going thru the great Tribulation, after the Body of Christ is raptured. ;)
I guess missed that in James where he mentions the tribulation and the rapture?:unsure:
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I guess missed that in James where he mentions the tribulation and the rapture?:unsure:
Of course James would not have been aware of the rapture when he wrote his letter to the 12 tribes, it was a secret first revealed to Paul.

As for the Tribulation, it was well known in the OT, part of the prophetic timetable. You probably missed his chapter 5, esp vs 7 and 8. when he warn the rich, those who refuse to surrender their wealth to join the early Jewish believers doing that in Acts 4:32.

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
So again by definition, that would be us and not the ones who disagree with us correct? ;)
Perhaps you think that way.... if someone disagrees with me I weigh it against scripture ...and sometimes I learn and sometimes a person is wrong because it does not line up with scripture.

I know what you insinuating here, it is not lost on me by the way.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Perhaps you think that way.... if someone disagrees with me I weigh it against scripture ...and sometimes I learn and sometimes a person is wrong because it does not line up with scripture.

I know what you insinuating here, it is not lost on me by the way.
I have already used the analogy of the movie playing in our head, to you in the past, so I assume you still remembered.

There is no need for any attempt of insinuation on my part.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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we are always the ones who agree with the scriptures. ;)
No.

There are those who obey, those who disobey, and those upon whom the word has no effect on (by witty theological inventions).

This wisdom you share is not biblical.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Context, audience, type of faith being addressed.....all which you reject and deny.....keep conflating James and Paul.....!
You state context again, I've given the context that shows James is speaking of the same sort of justification Paul is.

Audience could perhaps present an argument, but I see no reason to restrict James to just Jews despite his greeting. What reason is there for thinking there's a different program for the jews than for gentile's? Why would James discussion of justification only apply to jews?

What do you mean "type of faith?" Are you implying that James is not speaking of saving faith? What drew you to this conclusion?
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Is it just me, or are you and @Bbrdrd actually saying the same thing? I don't understand the opposition of thought between you...

Just because faith will naturally produce a result by the means of inner change, doesn't mean we are saved BY works. Rather when I first noticed my life getting changed I thought, yeah Jesus really did change me, so if I had any doubts I then knew for fact that I really was a new creature, I could then see what I first believed. It's actually focusing on the first fruits of His word taking root in some areas of my life that I kept my sanity and faith, believing that Jesus will also take care of the rest and shepherd me through, in the first period of my believer life when I encountered a lot of sinless perfectionism teachings. But my new behaviors didn't save me nor did they "maintain" salvation. That does not even compute you're either saved forever or you are not born again yet, there's no "maintaining" salvation. Jesus saved me back when I had no works to present. And any work that might have followed is His work on me, really. I don't think to believe this is works salvation. Am I wrong and if so, where?
The disagreement is essentially in whether there should exist a wall between sanctification and justification. Some, beginning with Luther, have taken the idea of justification by faith to such an extreme that they have perverted it and made it empty. They have set a wall of division between works and faith and, ironically considering Paul's primary concern was boasting, boast in their not working.

Certainly as you said in another post the bearing of apples is not what makes an apple tree an apple tree, and I believe you've got it right on the head with the thief's rebuke. Are there possibly some who as they take the last breath suddenly receive? I suppose, but such exceptions have no bearing on a conversation such as this.

Ultimately I have to question people who claim to have given their lives to Jesus who fight so hard against the idea that He expects obedience. To serve Him is a great privilege and not a cause for boasting.