Not By Works

[mailmandan]

Abraham was still justified, by faith alone, prior to works. Works follow justification.

We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Amen! In James 2:21 we notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

*James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[Bbrdrd]

Here is my take on it.

The faith that saves is the faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

When we repent of the sin of unbelief in Jesus and

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Our faith is complete in Jesus.

As a result this faith will be proven by our works.

This is what James was addressing.
Genuine faith will show up.

While I appreciate the sentiment, I do have one quibble with your assessment. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus are certainly a critical event and the faith that saves contains trust in what they accomplished but they are still an event. The faith that saves is alive and active, placed in the Shepherd Himself.

It's a faith that says live through me, Lord. Strip me of the old self and create in me a new creation. The faith that saves is the trust that He will do just that.

Our faith is absolutely complete in Jesus, but the undercurrent in this discussion that shapes the opposition is the question of "the great exchange." Those who oppose me put their faith in the death of Jesus that through His shed blood they may have access to His inheritance. (I have in mind here Matthew 21:33-40)

I certainly don't mean to state that everyone who believes in such an exchange is a thief as there are some who truly know Jesus and that's the paradigm they understand Him through. But true faith comes from relationship with Jesus, and that like any other relationship requires work.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Amen! In James 2:21 we notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

*James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

I'd say our assessments of James aren't that far off, but I don't believe James is simply speaking of evidence. Especially because he states that the works complete/perfect the faith and besides rhetorically challenging to show faith vs show works(which instead of being so James can know they have faith seems to be intended to ridicule the one saying "he has works, I have faith" by demonstrating that there is no substance to the claim.)

The idea in James is that faith is more than an agreement with statements of facts. It's not simply accepting that Jesus died and rose again but living the life that such a truth demands.

 

[mailmandan]

I'd say our assessments of James aren't that far off, but I don't believe James is simply speaking of evidence.

James 2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. We show that our faith is genuine by our works.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Especially because he states that the works complete/perfect the faith and besides rhetorically challenging to show faith vs show works (which instead of being so James can know they have faith seems to be intended to ridicule the one saying "he has works, I have faith" by demonstrating that there is no substance to the claim.)

In James 2:22, "faith made perfect" or "complete by works" means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

The idea in James is that faith is more than an agreement with statements of facts. It's not simply accepting that Jesus died and rose again but living the life that such a truth demands.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

It's not enough to merely believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." We must also trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. That is what it means to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

 

[Bbrdrd]

Do you believe in the pre tribulation rapture of the body of Christ?

From your doctrine Presented so far, my Guess is no?

I don't give much thought to eschatology so I haven't weighed the arguments for the various beliefs. As far as I'm concerned I know Jesus returns and puts an end to all sorrow at some point and that's good enough for me. The ride will go exactly as He intends and all I've got to worry about is heeding His call.

 

[Bbrdrd]

James 2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. We show that our faith is genuine by our works.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In James 2:22, "faith made perfect" or "complete by works" means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

It's not enough to merely believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." We must also trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. That is what it means to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

As I said, we're pretty much saying the same thing I'm just putting in a small caveat.

James isn't merely talking about how we demonstrate faith but what it means to have faith. Abraham was justified purely by his faith but his faith was a faith lived. It wasn't a faith kept in a box, brought out every once in a while and admired.

Abraham's faith moved him, it drove him to act. Those acts were a tangible expression of that faith, and any who have faith will demonstrate such faith. As you said, they were the ends of faith.

I brought it up earlier, but it bears repeating. While 15:6 is the point where God declares Abraham's faith is righteousness we know that he had faith before this point and we know from Hebrews 11:8 that it was genuine faith. So to bring up the separation between Genesis 15 and Genesis 22 is somewhat arbitrary. Throughout the life of Abraham his faith and works were intertwined, two sides to the same coin.

 

[VCO]

If God had only been a little more clear and direct in dictating the bible then we wouldnt have to have all these silly arguments. Its strange isnt it that God's will is that us humans should waste our time on silly nonsense like this instead of living good positive lives and not worrying about reward or punishment, still he is perfect and we are silly ignorant humans

I do not think GOD is less than ABSOLUTELY CLEAR.

It is Mankind that is unclear in some of his THINKING.



9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. {Long before your first deed.}
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 5:9-10 (HCSB)
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!


I repeat: It is NOT GOD's understanding and wisdom that weak.

It is some of mankind's understanding that Weak and Flawed.

 

[Guojing]

I don't give much thought to eschatology so I haven't weighed the arguments for the various beliefs. As far as I'm concerned I know Jesus returns and puts an end to all sorrow at some point and that's good enough for me. The ride will go exactly as He intends and all I've got to worry about is heeding His call.

Because if you do hold the pre-trib doctrine, then the idea that there would be truth that will apply to the Tribulation times, that do not apply now during the church age, will hardly be strange.

After all, you do agree that, in time past, circumcision and animal sacrifice were necessary right? But now, they are no longer the truth that applies.

If you do agree with that, then why is it strange to see James as doctrine that will be true "in the age to come"?

We who are living in the but now time period, is privilege to see both the truth that applied in time past, and the truth that will apply in the age to come.

 

[EleventhHour]

The disagreement is essentially in whether there should exist a wall between sanctification and justification. Some, beginning with Luther, have taken the idea of justification by faith to such an extreme that they have perverted it and made it empty. They have set a wall of division between works and faith and, ironically considering Paul's primary concern was boasting, boast in their not working.

Certainly as you said in another post the bearing of apples is not what makes an apple tree an apple tree, and I believe you've got it right on the head with the thief's rebuke. Are there possibly some who as they take the last breath suddenly receive? I suppose, but such exceptions have no bearing on a conversation such as this.

Ultimately I have to question people who claim to have given their lives to Jesus who fight so hard against the idea that He expects obedience. To serve Him is a great privilege and not a cause for boasting.

Comflating justification and sanctification is a typical when people want to keep works in the plan of salvation.

We are both positionally justified and sanctified when we are redeemed, born from above.

We are not saved slowly over time through the process of sanctification.

It seems to me that your beliefs are very much like Catholicisim?

 

[dcontroversal]

You state context again, I've given the context that shows James is speaking of the same sort of justification Paul is.

Audience could perhaps present an argument, but I see no reason to restrict James to just Jews despite his greeting. What reason is there for thinking there's a different program for the jews than for gentile's? Why would James discussion of justification only apply to jews?

What do you mean "type of faith?" Are you implying that James is not speaking of saving faith? What drew you to this conclusion?

His comparison to the demons believing....THEY, like the HEBREWS/JEWS believe IN GOD, BUT have no SAVING FAITH into Christ...and NO...JAMES AND PAUL are discussing two entirely different "faiths" and two entirely different audiences of justification

Paul --> BEFORE GOD AND HOW

JAMES -->above seen by men and how

Jesus even covers this concept...LET YOUR GOOD WORKS BE SEEN BEFORE WHO exactly?

Sorry migo, your application of James is incorrect....!

 

[EleventhHour]

I'd say rather that shows the faith genuine. That is what James is saying.

I wonder which good deeds show the faith to not be genuine?

 

[dcontroversal]

I don't give much thought to eschatology so I haven't weighed the arguments for the various beliefs. As far as I'm concerned I know Jesus returns and puts an end to all sorrow at some point and that's good enough for me. The ride will go exactly as He intends and all I've got to worry about is heeding His call.

For informational purposes...

For every one prophecy concerning the 1st coming there are 8 that deal with the second coming......

All scripture is inspired and PROFITABLE......

We are to study it and have an understanding....just saying!

 

[EleventhHour]

I'd say rather that shows the faith genuine. That is what James is saying.

Yes, I know, you even attach good works to the thief on the cross to
demonstrate "genuine" conversion.

 

[dcontroversal]

I wonder which good deeds show the faith to not be genuine?

None.....as a matter of fact...lost people do decent, biblical things every day, such as feeding the poor, donating to charities and many will stand before Jesus boasting of all the good works they done in his name....only to end up snapping, crackling and popping for all eternity.....

FAITH is what justifies a man before GOD and the fruits of the Spirit are produced BY THE SPIRIT...NOT US!

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, I know you even attach good works to the thief on the cross to
demonstrate "genuine" conversion.

Hilariously sad and false to boot.....kind of contradictatory......He peddles a dogma that says man has no choice and is hand picked by something irresistible, yet must have works.......!

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

I wonder which good deeds show the faith to not be genuine?

the more good deeds there are, the more genuine. if Jesus was perfect then all His deeds were good. He had the most good deeds = 100% Genuine Faith. ☺


genuine
adjective
gen·u·ine
Legal Definition of genuine

: actually having the reputed or apparent qualities or character

specifically : free of forgery or counterfeiting— see also GENUINE ISSUE at ISSUE

 

[EleventhHour]

Hilariously sad and false to boot.....kind of contradictatory......He peddles a dogma that says man has no choice and is hand picked by something irresistible, yet must have works.......!

Agree... contradictory.... it seems in that dogma works have just as much justifying power as faith if even the thief on the cross must be shown to have works.

 

[dcontroversal]

the more good deeds there are, the more genuine. if Jesus was perfect then all His deeds were good. He had the most good deeds = 100% Genuine Faith. ☺


genuine
adjective
gen·u·ine
Legal Definition of genuine

: actually having the reputed or apparent qualities or character

specifically : free of forgery or counterfeiting— see also GENUINE ISSUE at ISSUE

Based solely on scripture name David's good works.....

I can name...

Murder
Adultry
Numbering the people
Covering up sin
Deceit

You know what he had....he had FAITH.....!

 

[EleventhHour]

the more good deeds there are, the more genuine. if Jesus was perfect then all His deeds were good. He had the most good deeds = 100% Genuine Faith. ☺


genuine
adjective
gen·u·ine
Legal Definition of genuine

: actually having the reputed or apparent qualities or character

specifically : free of forgery or counterfeiting— see also GENUINE ISSUE at ISSUE

I am thinking then you will not know UNTIL death if your faith has been genuine.

 

[EleventhHour]

I'd say our assessments of James aren't that far off, but I don't believe James is simply speaking of evidence. Especially because he states that the works complete/perfect the faith and besides rhetorically challenging to show faith vs show works(which instead of being so James can know they have faith seems to be intended to ridicule the one saying "he has works, I have faith" by demonstrating that there is no substance to the claim.)

The idea in James is that faith is more than an agreement with statements of facts. It's not simply accepting that Jesus died and rose again but living the life that such a truth demands.

Works do not complete faith in the spiritual world.

In the natural world they complete faith in the sense that works externalize, make manifest, an inward reality.

We are spiritually saved totally and completely through faith...by the grace of God.