Where did evil come from?

soggykitten · Jul 18, 2020

I think of what many sins exist and then consider how many evils people are guilty of. Doesn't seem right somehow. If I take a cracker from my sisters plate as she turns to grab a spoon full of tomatoes for her salad, am I evil? Is that then equal in sin, evilness, to the serial killer that was arrested somewhere in the world last week?

If sin is transgression of the law, what law are we referring to? Didn't Paul teach something like the law isn't in force anymore?

soggykitten · Jul 18, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

Didn't God speak to Adam personally about not eating the fruit?

Micaiah-imla · Jul 18, 2020

soggykitten said:

What's your point?

The scripture says Adam was not deceived, end of story.

soggykitten · Jul 18, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

Not the end of thinking though.

Blue_Of_Lake · Jul 18, 2020

soggykitten said:

I think of what many sins exist and then consider how many evils people are guilty of. Doesn't seem right somehow. If I take a cracker from my sisters plate as she turns to grab a spoon full of tomatoes for her salad, am I evil? Is that then equal in sin, evilness, to the serial killer that was arrested somewhere in the world last week?

If sin is transgression of the law, what law are we referring to? Didn't Paul teach something like the law isn't in force anymore?

the Moral Law is always in force. Jesus spoke of it and also said REPENT.

soggykitten · Jul 18, 2020

Blue_Of_Lake said:

Thanks. Help me out please. I thought the ten commandments were the laws of God. What is the moral law? Same thing?

Micaiah-imla · Jul 18, 2020

soggykitten said:

I would not spend time critically thinking on things that the scripture has clearly laid out If I were you...

Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

soggykitten · Jul 18, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

I would say that is improper to the context of my prior observations. If we're not meant to think God would have created us so that we could not.
Mine was a simple question not intending to offend nor was it soliciting that.

Deuteronomy · Jul 18, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

Hello Micaiah-imla, רַע (transliterated raʿ) has several meanings (like most words do, yes?). It can mean "evil" (in the moral sense of the word), but does that meaning make any sense in context (whether it be the immediate context of the verse/passage, and/or the overall context of the Bible itself/what we know of God and of His character)

(רַע can also mean "disaster" or "calamity", for instance)

In the immediate context, the Lord compares sets of opposites for us. He "forms the light", but He also "creates the darkness". He "makes peace", but He also "creates evil".

Wait, what

Is "evil" what we would ever think of as the opposite of "peace"? No, I would say that "war" is what we would normally think of first as the opposite of "peace", right?

So, since this interpretation doesn't make sense in the ~immediate~ context of Isaiah, what about the whole of the Scriptures

Does the Bible ever tell us that God is the Author/the Cause of sin, or does it tell us something quite different about Him (that He is NOT the cause of anyone's temptations, must less of our sins, or even of our sin nature)? Since we know that the latter is true, then God being the creator of "moral" evil doesn't make sense in the overall context of the Bible either, does it

At this point, since we know that God being the creator of the (moral) evil that exists in the world doesn't make sense in ~any~ context, then we need to look for an alternative meaning of the word רַע that does make sense .. in context.

*Remember too that שָׁלֹום (transliterated shalom, translated "peace" in the AV) has variations of meaning as well.

Perhaps a different translation would be helpful, like the NASB, which chose to translate the Hebrew as follows,

Isaiah 45

6 I am the Lord, and there is no other,

7 The One forming light and creating darkness,

Causing well-being and creating calamity;

I am the LORD who does all these things.

~Deut
p.s. - in Hebrew, context is ~everything~ when trying to arrive at the correct meaning of a word.

Micaiah-imla · Jul 18, 2020

Deuteronomy said:

How about these passages:

Job 2:10

What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

Psalm 78:49

He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Proverbs 16:4

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God's character isn't negatively affected by the implication that God created evil; He created ALL things.

It's his business why he did so, not mine. My only concern is in hearing and obeying his word.

Benadam · Jul 18, 2020

tantalon said:

Dear tantalon,
Evil is not the opposite of good. Good and evil together don't make a whole. Good doesn't require evil In order to exist. The definition of evil is ...that which lacks good.

Moral evil is no- thing because God created every thing.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 19, 2020

tantalon said:

Really? And what exactly does Isaiah 45:7 say? Have you rightly divided it?

יֹוצֵ֥ר אֹור֙ וּבֹורֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה שָׁלֹ֖ום וּבֹ֣ורֵא *רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥הכָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃

*Strong's Concordance
ra': adversity
Original Word: רַע
Part of Speech: Adjective; noun masculine; noun feminine
Transliteration: ra'
Phonetic Spelling: (rah)
Definition: bad, evil

Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. רַע226 adjective bad, evil
1 evil, distress, adversity: יָרֵא רַע fear evil Psalm 23:4;Zephaniah 3:15; בּוֺרֵא רָ֑ע Isaiah 45:7 (of God), הביא רעIsaiah 31:2; מתאננים רַע Numbers 11:1

So that word "ra" in this context means adversity or calamity or disaster. Therefore we have these translations:

New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things."

International Standard Version
"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

So, it is true that all natural disasters (earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, tsunamis, etc) are in the hands of God. Therefore He creates them. And it is also true that natural disasters result in the loss of lives, limbs, and property. Therefore their ultimate impact is evil.

But sin, evil, and wickedness arise from within the heart of man, and eventually Satan is responsible for bringing evil deeds and evil doers into the world.

On the other hand, the Bible says that GOD IS LIGHT, AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL. This speaks of moral or spiritual darkness (as well as physical darkness). There is absolutely none within God who Himself is LIGHT, LIFE, AND LOVE.

The Bible also says: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (James 1:13).

The Bible also says: Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. (Job 15:15)

So now you should rightly divide the Word of Truth and understand that all evil originates with Satan, and now, because of the Fall, it lies within human hearts.

Micaiah-imla · Jul 19, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

Boy, that KJV sure gets beat up a lot around here...

Those translators in 1611 were not as smart as all the modern translators...

So even if you prefer the rendering "disaster" instead of "evil", is not a disaster still an evil thing?

I guess this next verse in the KJV must be a "mistranslation" as well...

Proverbs 16:4

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Micaiah-imla · Jul 19, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

And you said the following in another thread:

"The sad fact is that the majority of prominent and well-know Christian personalities today have swallowed the Great Bible Version Hoax hook, line, and sinker. And even after you draw their attention to the issue, they refuse to give up their false bibles."

So why use false bibles to contradict the KJV?

Ronja · Jul 19, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

There are bound to be translation errors in many bibles and sometimes the meaning of certain texts change. That is one of the reasons priests learn Hebrew in their education, to be able to read the original texts.
This is one of the reasons I think it’s wrong to say: “the scripture say this, end of story!”
We are called to be thinking Christians, not blind followers.

Micaiah-imla · Jul 19, 2020

Ronja said:

We are called to be saints.

And not even thinking saints, but faithful saints.

1 Corinthians 3:20 KJV
And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

You have nothing without scripture. And a faithful translation is just as good as the “original”.

Micaiah-imla · Jul 19, 2020

Ronja said:

What good did that do to Israel, when they were carried away captive to Babylon?

Obedience to a translation of the word of God is better than disobedience to the original word of God.

Ronja · Jul 19, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

What has this to do with anything I just said?

Ronja · Jul 19, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

If I had a child and that child didn’t ask any questions I would be very worried. We are humans, and we ask questions to try to understand things. I think that is a beautiful thing about us. If I don’t understand what a scripture means or why it says what it says I ask about it. I don’t blindly accept. I think that is dangerous to do.

soberxp · Jul 19, 2020

Deuteronomy said:

Hello Micaiah-imla, רַע (transliterated raʿ) has several meanings (like most words do, yes?). It can mean "evil" (in the moral sense of the word), but does that meaning make any sense in context (whether it be the immediate context of the verse/passage, and/or the overall context of the Bible itself/what we know of God and of His character)

(רַע can also mean "disaster" or "calamity", for instance)

In the immediate context, the Lord compares sets of opposites for us. He "forms the light", but He also "creates the darkness". He "makes peace", but He also "creates evil".

Wait, what

Is "evil" what we would ever think of as the opposite of "peace"? No, I would say that "war" is what we would normally think of first as the opposite of "peace", right?

So, since this interpretation doesn't make sense in the ~immediate~ context of Isaiah, what about the whole of the Scriptures

Does the Bible ever tell us that God is the Author/the Cause of sin, or does it tell us something quite different about Him (that He is NOT the cause of anyone's temptations, must less of our sins, or even of our sin nature)? Since we know that the latter is true, then God being the creator of "moral" evil doesn't make sense in the overall context of the Bible either, does it

At this point, since we know that God being the creator of the (moral) evil that exists in the world doesn't make sense in ~any~ context, then we need to look for an alternative meaning of the word רַע that does make sense .. in context.

*Remember too that שָׁלֹום (transliterated shalom, translated "peace" in the AV) has variations of meaning as well.

Perhaps a different translation would be helpful, like the NASB, which chose to translate the Hebrew as follows,

Isaiah 45

6 I am the Lord, and there is no other,

7 The One forming light and creating darkness,

Causing well-being and creating calamity;

I am the LORD who does all these things.

~Deut
p.s. - in Hebrew, context is ~everything~ when trying to arrive at the correct meaning of a word.

yes,in chinese bible, Isaiah 45:7I made light and darkness; I gave peace and brought disaster; I, the Lord, made all these things.
I've been wondering why people come up with a different English version than ours

Where did evil come from?

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