Faith

[timps]

Yes I understand where Calibob is coming from and I also see the stance of Timps, It may be my bleeding heart but I want to help Timps any way I can and I don't think putting him on ignore waiting for him to give or get banned is the way to go about it that is all I was saying.

I can tell he is smart and this is the bdf and in any debate reasoning and listening is the best way to go about any dispute and as I suspected he was in religion not in the relationship and perhaps I cannot convince him at all perhaps I am wasting my time but I saw how far Jesus was willing to go for all our sakes and he would have gone through all of that a thousand times for just one lost soul.

At the very least I want to let him know that he is accepted saved or not, any of us could have gone through the 30 years he did if I went through the motions like that I would be the same as him. As Christians we don't turn people away because they don't believe or because they argue or even attack us which he didn't attack or anything but we show love compassion understanding patience the fruits of the spirit.

Christians in the worlds eyes are seen as hypocrites judgmental condemning and just worshiping a God to find self worth or to be in a community where they feel they belong, this is why when one comes across a Christian who seems abnormal compared to other believers even if it is only a very small one a spark is made they may not even think about for years but that tiny seed while buried was indeed planted.

That was the point of the testimony I gave, an athiest that comes to seek kill and destroy but because one person didn't follow the crowd God used him to show his heart and that athiest became saved.

Words have far more power in them than we realize and God uses those who are willing to be used

So god allowed me to think I was a Christian for 30 years without having a relationship with him. And now I just Need to pray one more time and this will be the big revelation. Why would I want to align myself with a being like that. Good thing there is no evidence for him.

 

[Blain]

So god allowed me to think I was a Christian for 30 years without having a relationship with him. And now I just Need to pray one more time and this will be the big revelation. Why would I want to align myself with a being like that. Good thing there is no evidence for him.

Well I wanted you to try it but trust me I know where you are coming from. My entire life even to this day I have mostly only known suffering, my real parents abused starved and drugged me to the point I was an 8 year old the size of a four year old my brain hadn't even fully developed because of lack of nutrition I was also sexually abused treated as a slave and my mom cut me and convinced me the blood coming was demons, then even after I was taken away just as I was about to become 12 years old wouldn't you know it lady cancer comes for a visit I had Lukemia a deadly blood cancer I was twelve years old going through the worst treatments imaginable the chemo destoyed my immune system the radiation damaged my already not fully developed brain the surgeries with my spine were so painful I whited out every time they had to hold me down because of how terrified I was if I didn't white out from the pain I don't know what would have happened even after I was cured of cancer my mind and body were perminetly damaged.

I can never live like evryone else I have the hardest time doing simple things on my own my immune system is all but destoyed and I am still stuck in a 16 year old's body even though I am 29 my family have always treated me as if I am just an anoyince they see and treat me as a weak incompatent loser I have never known the love of a parent I have never known what it is like to be loved just for you and theen 2 years ago my eyes got infected beecause I was diagnosed with diebetes when I had cancer the radiation destoyed my body in more than one way but the problem is combined with an already weakened immune system diebetes makes that even worse so my eyes got infected and I became so blind that I had to have a cane and even then we had to have needles stuck in my eye balls and over the two years I was in solitude not able to see or do anything Iand even now as good as my eyes have come they have a long way to go and I may not ever be able to have them healed there may not be anything we can do about it.

So trust me I have all the reason to be furious at God I have more than a lot of people every reason to not believe in him, I know he allowed all my suffering and still allows it but I have grown as a person from my suffering I took what life handed me and made something from it because I had him.
Whether you want to seek him out or not is up to you like I said I was not trying to rope you in

 

[calibob]

Yes I understand where Calibob is coming from and I also see the stance of Timps, It may be my bleeding heart but I want to help Timps any way I can and I don't think putting him on ignore waiting for him to give or get banned is the way to go about it that is all I was saying.

I can tell he is smart and this is the bdf and in any debate reasoning and listening is the best way to go about any dispute and as I suspected he was in religion not in the relationship and perhaps I cannot convince him at all perhaps I am wasting my time but I saw how far Jesus was willing to go for all our sakes and he would have gone through all of that a thousand times for just one lost soul.

At the very least I want to let him know that he is accepted saved or not, any of us could have gone through the 30 years he did if I went through the motions like that I would be the same as him. As Christians we don't turn people away because they don't believe or because they argue or even attack us which he didn't attack or anything but we show love compassion understanding patience the fruits of the spirit.

Christians in the worlds eyes are seen as hypocrites judgmental condemning and just worshiping a God to find self worth or to be in a community where they feel they belong, this is why when one comes across a Christian who seems abnormal compared to other believers even if it is only a very small one a spark is made they may not even think about for years but that tiny seed while buried was indeed planted.

That was the point of the testimony I gave, an athiest that comes to seek kill and destroy but because one person didn't follow the crowd God used him to show his heart and that athiest became saved.

Words have far more power in them than we realize and God uses those who are willing to be used

It was a personal choice like hanging up a phone. And what I told him or her was the absolute truth not and attack. He/she has 3 choices quit (debating I meant) repent or eventually get kicked out of here. Not today but eventually I pretty sure the staff has little tolerance for people that contradict that Jesus is lord and God.

You can witness all you want to them all you want, I've grown weary so I'm outie. Apologetics was a college course where I worked. It's a ministry in and of itself. I'd rather leave it to somebody who has more practice with that ministry. You wouldn't call a mechanic to fix your water heater, you'd call a plumber.

 

[garee]

I have already answered these questions. Personal empirical experience goes into the making of faith, and cannot be transferred. Did you miss that? You say you have no opinion on faith but then keep giving it and denying it at the same time. You are being irrational. I did not say you were saying you have faith in your opinion.You miss the point entirely. I am saying you have faith in your opinion, even as you claim you have no opinion. Your lack of rationality and logic escape you, also.

I would agree we have private interpretations or personal commentaries of what we think His interpretation is teaches us .

In that way the Bible informs us their must be heresies a or differences in opinions . The Kingdom does not come of observing what the eyes see .What the eyes see is temporal . We study to show ourselves approved to him in a living hope that rising above human hope (what the eyes see) that we are rightly dividing his interpretation as a witness who was there working in a with .

We are not a source of Christian faith. Christ alone is It is his faith the works in us as a labor of His love. Not dead faith . . ."out of sight out of mind".

 

[Blain]

It was a personal choice like hanging up a phone. And what I told him or her was the absolute truth not and attack. He/she has 3 choices quit (debating I meant) repent or eventually get kicked out of here. Not today but eventually I pretty sure the staff has little tolerance for people that contradict that Jesus is lord and God.

You can witness all you want to them all you want, I've grown weary so I'm outie. Apologetics was a college course where I worked. It's a ministry in and of itself. I'd rather leave it to somebody who has more practice with that ministry. You wouldn't call a mechanic to fix your water heater, you'd call a plumber.

I meant no offense and I didn't mean to disrespect you in any way, I didn't mean to say you were attacking him I merely was suggesting it may have been the wrong method and I also did not mean to make you think I was looking down on you in any way. Honestly I don't know what apolagetics are didn't even know it was in college

We are not all called for the same thing I am not sure I am called for saving the lost either I only act on what is placed on my heart

 

[Magenta]

You left the door wide open for a mini testimony. Thank you.

In 1977 on a beautiful spring afternoon I was walking through a park about sunset. I saw a circle of people about my age gathered under a tree. They looked happy and were singing contemporary sounding songs. playing guitars, tamborines and even a harmonica. It seemed to be cool fun so I approached. They were singing christian lyrics and the invited me to join. They were modern, contemporary yet hardcore Christians

It was on my way home and learned they gathered several nights a week so I visited them often. They were non denominational christians who went to events and concerts at a several different churches. Jesus freaks they were called. They mostly lived in the area but had no church or Pastor. Just a dude that owned a used book store nearby. He gave me a bible.

They heard that 2 evangelist missionaries were returning from Africa and took up a collection to rent a high school auditorium. They/we and invited them and everybody to come and hear about there travels and experiences as missionaries. I was amazed by what I heard. We took a collection and offered it to them. They refused it. They started walking around and selected individuals to pray for. No strings.

They came to me and tanked Jesus for providing me as a witness. People all around started praiseing and thanking God. I was deeply moved but skeptical so I prayed to a god that I was never convinced exested. It could have been group psychosis or something like that. I asked Jesus if he was real, prove it to me.

That night in my dank and dark apartment the lights suddenly came on and Jesus made himself real to me. The Holy Spirit filled me first with more love. Than I ever had for anything or anyone. I've never doubted agani. when the sun rose I was still thanking and praising the Lord. I've never doubted His reality since.

Sometimes a witness is evidence enough to indite or even execute. I'm a witness. I'll never deny it happened and many others I have known have had similar experiences. @Deade @Magenta, can I get a witness? Amen?

Amen!

 

[Magenta]

So god allowed me to think I was a Christian for 30 years without having a relationship with him. And now I just Need to pray one more time and this will be the big revelation. Why would I want to align myself with a being like that. Good thing there is no evidence for him.

If you had no evidence to believe in the first place, why did you believe? Something's not adding up here...

 

[Prycejosh1987]

What is faith?

I call it a belief system, because its integrated into the mind and will of the person.

 

[Mii]

@timps I know we left off with evidence. It seems that a lot has happened in this thread since I last posted...this may not fit any more. This is just a base with how scripture interacts with this a bit. NOTE: Scripture itself (the words) not THE Word necessarily from my perspective as I am definitely willing to correct any error or have corrected my thinking if The Word corrects me. Some of that might not make sense, but other people are reading...I try to meet others halfway "if it's possible"...only through Christ is it possible but that's up to him of course. May, but I am open myself. I will also say that I've lost the "substance" of this conversation right now.

I intended to do a part 2 about human evidence and how that interacts with faith but I'm just not feeling it right now. I scanned the last page and I think @Magenta said something along the lines that personal faith is not transferable...but it's like, what is evidentiary to me or "evidenced" (like self-evident) based off pattern recognition, apologetics, and personal feelings/experiences is pretty hard to explain fully but even if we had a conversation about it, still it might only end up being "that's what you believe" what it does do is can make someone hungry for something similar from the same source. That's kind of witnessing to me.

Anyway, overlong already, I put the basis for a train of thought after her quote...it's a rough draft of part of a post but there you go, I intended to finish it but it'll be a while, so if you stick around...

Personal empirical experience goes into the making of faith, and cannot be transferred

Not sure if that quote will work or not since it was a quote of a quote


Evidence hmm...that is a tough one. First I'll go according to scripture and then human experience and see if there is a connection.



Scripture:

I think someone posted the scripture about what the bible defines faith as...the "evidence" of things unseen.

Here is what the Strongs concordance defines the Greek word as (alas, the two definitions are contradictory without faith)

1650: Elegchos: Proof, conviction - evidence, reproof

There are a few instances in the OT but that requires context and I take a lot more care with the Hebrew.


So. Proof, conviction. Apologies in advance if this is a bit scattered.

"we hold these truths to be self-evident..." <---from the constitution. I think this is probably the type of evidence that is meant in the Greek rather than scientifically verifiable "proof". There are quite a few things that cannot be empirically verified (such as truth) and "evident" based off some type of data. It's possible that there is more to this interpretation of the word "evidence" but as a starting place perhaps that will do.

It may be helpful to define "data" also though. Data is information/input. Our likes/dislikes are data. There are so many factors and variables present in each human and the input varies so much that it's hard for me to speak to unless I have someone else's data to interact with.

We know that without faith it is impossible to please God and the Just shall live by faith. There are a good many verses which expand what faith is but according to itself and not exclusively. Meaning it is impossible to understand faith according to these verses if one treats it as "academic" and does not engage what it actually is as being more than just "intellectually contained". Not to get too wordy, but it is a construct that is temporal and yet like time in a way, human beings are bound by it.

Maybe some good questions are...we each have faith in something, why not faith in God?

If you don't know what is "real" or what is beyond death, how can you rule it out?

What if this legitimately is the system of the universe, that a being who is powerful enough to operate outside the fragile limited mortality of a human being and their conscious reality to be able to "not be proven" and that's just how it is and it is immutable.

If we operate from that position, then why not God?
Because of? : (fill in the blank may move us forward)
~the existence of evil?
~pain?
~not understanding?
~wanting your own will?
~stubbornness?
~confusion?
~not believing you are the "elect"?


It is clear that you are interested in understanding possibly...I can't judge your motives other than I was interested in responding to you specifically for whatever reason.

 

[Blain]

@timps I know we left off with evidence. It seems that a lot has happened in this thread since I last posted...this may not fit any more. This is just a base with how scripture interacts with this a bit. NOTE: Scripture itself (the words) not THE Word necessarily from my perspective as I am definitely willing to correct any error or have corrected my thinking if The Word corrects me. Some of that might not make sense, but other people are reading...I try to meet others halfway "if it's possible"...only through Christ is it possible but that's up to him of course. May, but I am open myself. I will also say that I've lost the "substance" of this conversation right now.

I intended to do a part 2 about human evidence and how that interacts with faith but I'm just not feeling it right now. I scanned the last page and I think @Magenta said something along the lines that personal faith is not transferable...but it's like, what is evidentiary to me or "evidenced" (like self-evident) based off pattern recognition, apologetics, and personal feelings/experiences is pretty hard to explain fully but even if we had a conversation about it, still it might only end up being "that's what you believe" what it does do is can make someone hungry for something similar from the same source. That's kind of witnessing to me.

Anyway, overlong already, I put the basis for a train of thought after her quote...it's a rough draft of part of a post but there you go, I intended to finish it but it'll be a while, so if you stick around...



Not sure if that quote will work or not since it was a quote of a quote


Evidence hmm...that is a tough one. First I'll go according to scripture and then human experience and see if there is a connection.



Scripture:

I think someone posted the scripture about what the bible defines faith as...the "evidence" of things unseen.

Here is what the Strongs concordance defines the Greek word as (alas, the two definitions are contradictory without faith)

1650: Elegchos: Proof, conviction - evidence, reproof

There are a few instances in the OT but that requires context and I take a lot more care with the Hebrew.


So. Proof, conviction. Apologies in advance if this is a bit scattered.

"we hold these truths to be self-evident..." <---from the constitution. I think this is probably the type of evidence that is meant in the Greek rather than scientifically verifiable "proof". There are quite a few things that cannot be empirically verified (such as truth) and "evident" based off some type of data. It's possible that there is more to this interpretation of the word "evidence" but as a starting place perhaps that will do.

It may be helpful to define "data" also though. Data is information/input. Our likes/dislikes are data. There are so many factors and variables present in each human and the input varies so much that it's hard for me to speak to unless I have someone else's data to interact with.

We know that without faith it is impossible to please God and the Just shall live by faith. There are a good many verses which expand what faith is but according to itself and not exclusively. Meaning it is impossible to understand faith according to these verses if one treats it as "academic" and does not engage what it actually is as being more than just "intellectually contained". Not to get too wordy, but it is a construct that is temporal and yet like time in a way, human beings are bound by it.

Maybe some good questions are...we each have faith in something, why not faith in God?

If you don't know what is "real" or what is beyond death, how can you rule it out?

What if this legitimately is the system of the universe, that a being who is powerful enough to operate outside the fragile limited mortality of a human being and their conscious reality to be able to "not be proven" and that's just how it is and it is immutable.

If we operate from that position, then why not God?
Because of? : (fill in the blank may move us forward)
~the existence of evil?
~pain?
~not understanding?
~wanting your own will?
~stubbornness?
~confusion?
~not believing you are the "elect"?


It is clear that you are interested in understanding possibly...I can't judge your motives other than I was interested in responding to you specifically for whatever reason.

Wow this was outstanding you did great much better than I could. I don't think his motives are of ill nature he has been respondding as far as I can tell respectfully, I am not sure why but I also am interested in responding to him it may be the spirit guiding but I hope he sticks around I haven't seen him since yesterday and am kind of worried

 

[Mii]

Wow this was outstanding you did great much better than I could. I don't think his motives are of ill nature he has been respondding as far as I can tell respectfully, I am not sure why but I also am interested in responding to him it may be the spirit guiding but I hope he sticks around I haven't seen him since yesterday and am kind of worried

Nah, I actually scanned a few of your posts and that encouraged me to just go ahead and make the post instead of delaying. It's hard to remember that some people are on a time frame with how long they are going to be on this site. Sometimes when people are angry or just want truth on their terms (which is very human) it comes across as combative but I don't mind that up to a point, even in person. At some point I feel like my effort is not going anywhere, and then I move on, but the thread is pretty young

 

[Rosemaryx]

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
...xox...

 

[Blain]

Nah, I actually scanned a few of your posts and that encouraged me to just go ahead and make the post instead of delaying. It's hard to remember that some people are on a time frame with how long they are going to be on this site. Sometimes when people are angry or just want truth on their terms (which is very human) it comes across as combative but I don't mind that up to a point, even in person. At some point I feel like my effort is not going anywhere, and then I move on, but the thread is pretty young

Right on the mark I hope more people learn to view and debate as you do, I am the same way I will do battle to a pointas even heated debates if one has a teachable heart can help people learn grow and mature because iron does sharpen iron after all but if the debate just because constant back and forth and senseless arguing no fruits can grow and one must know when to shake the dust off their feet and walk away.

People can seem to be combatant just as you said and sometimes that can be seen as attacking which the mods can sometimes see as reason to ban so yes sometimes people have a limited time frame on here but like I said as long as the seed is planted the effort was not in vain.