Are We Using Epesians 2:8-9 As An Excuse to Do Nothing?

[tantalon]

So, does that mean we should do nothing at all?

Are we to serve one another? If so, what would that look like?

Ephesians 2:8,9. but the next verse, 10, answers your question. It would seem many people are confused regarding context, and read only a verse but the subject is left hanging. As the saying goes, "A Text, (verse) without a context, (the subject it is placed in), is a pretext, (open to error).

 

[Chester]

A fair question. The answer is, not enough.

I find it a lot easier to help that homeless person on the street than it is to help a fellow brother or sister in Christ.

The reason for this is accessibility. The person on the street is accessible to me, whereas the fellow church member I only get to see and speak with for less than an hour a week-- maybe two hours if there is some special event such as a prayer breakfast.

My intent with this thread is to call out pastors and church leaders to start leading again in the area of service. I have prayed diligently for God to provide an earthly mentor who is not only knowledgeable about the entire bible but who is also willing to teach about service. Unfortunately, I am still waiting.

I was not necessarily calling out the members of the church. In fact, if it wasn't for the lowly congregants of most churches, their leaders would look even worse than they do now.

So to your point, I have a long way to go myself. But I hate being all alone. I am desperate for earthly leadership to help coach me in this area.

In the words of the great prophet, Doc Holliday, "My hypocrisy knows no bounds."

Depending on your situation, if you are waiting on a mentor to show you the way to service, you may wait and wait and never find one. From what I see of your writing and heart, I think God may be calling you to be the leader and mentor yourself. If you begin actively and agressively being a servant, you will likely find others who will join you.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

What if we were to start doing this instead:

• Bring a plate of cookies to that atheist neighbor and invite him over for dinner so he can see what God's love really looks like.
• Offer to babysit for that single mom. After all, we were the ones who talked her out of aborting her baby.
• Scrub pots and pans at the local homeless shelter
• Give the 10% we normally set aside for our local church to buy groceries for the family across the street, since they lost all of their income due to the pandemic
• Listen to that dear sister in the church tell us about her recent cancer diagnosis. Repeat tomorrow, and the next day.

I understand what your saying completely in the natural, but i believe that we should show reverence for God besides loving others always. Giving to the church is much better and has greater purpose than giving to people, because it helps people in greater ways. For example, giving 10% to the church monthly is much greater than using the money to buy groceries for the family across the street. You need to look at spiritual meanings and contexts into what your saying. I never look at tithing as giving to a church, but as to supporting Gods work and helping more people in greater ways. Who are the first ones to give to the poor, the church, who are the ones that offer therapy and counselling for free, the church. The list goes on longer and longer.

 

[DesertWanderer]

Depending on your situation, if you are waiting on a mentor to show you the way to service, you may wait and wait and never find one. From what I see of your writing and heart, I think God may be calling you to be the leader and mentor yourself. If you begin actively and agressively being a servant, you will likely find others who will join you.

To my larger point, I find it disheartening that pastors and other leaders are only willing to lead the charge pertaining to service in the context of self-aggrandizement of the institutional church.

To your point, I agree that waiting for an earthly mentor is pointless. In fact, upon asking God for the 1,000th time, a very small voice said, "I'll do it. Now go get your bible, and let's get started."

An immature believer may find that to be haughty and even a bit prideful to suggest I could be directly mentored by the Father. But I liken it to being a little child sent to the principle's office for the tenth time. The kid is so bad that the teachers can no longer handle him. At that point, the caring, loving principle takes the spoiled child under his wing and transforms him into a productive student.

I hope you are right, and that one day I can go from being an immature, spoiled child to a leader that makes other disciples under the auspices of the Great Master Teacher.

 

[preacher4truth]

Just curious. Is your lsat statement found in the scriptures, if so, I must have overlooked it. Could you help me with book, chapter and verse?

Yes, it is an added narrative found nowhere in Scripture, nor is his version of salvation via free will found, but is dogmatically denied, John 1:13; Romans 9:11-20.

If we are saved via free will as he asserts that implies we chose God and His salvation, and that we did it in our ability (viz. "our will") to whatever extent, even if we go Semi-Pelagian and say He brought me, helped me, assisted me, and then I did it. Yet this is also denied by Scripture as well, John 6:63. Salvation is all of God, it is not clinched by decision, will, choice, or by any other means of man; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:3.

As a pastor friend of mine preached one time he shouted "Will yourself to believe!" which is of course utter nonsense. It is impossible for the dead in sin to do so. Do we then congratulate them when they do it? Congratulations, you did it, you willed yourself to believe? No, faith is Gods gift, it isn't willed by man and then given on that basis.

 

[DesertWanderer]

I understand what your saying completely in the natural, but i believe that we should show reverence for God besides loving others always. Giving to the church is much better and has greater purpose than giving to people, because it helps people in greater ways. For example, giving 10% to the church monthly is much greater than using the money to buy groceries for the family across the street

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, although, I believe you are attempting to make a case for worldwide mission work in order to spread the Gospel. And that, of course, is a great thing.

But too often the money collected every Sunday is used to expand large buildings, pay for expensive programs like AWANA, and put the pastor's kids through private school.

These are not bad things in and of themselves, but when I'm reading the bible concerning the subject of giving, it looks like our Father in heaven would rather us give to the needy, rather than prop up a $1million church budget.

For example:

Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed. Proverbs 19:17

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God. Heb 13:16

In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ Acts 20:35

Jesus speaking to the disciples:

Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is well pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide yourselves purses that do not wear out—a treasure in heaven that never decreases, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Luke 12: 32-34

Notice here He didn't say, "Sell your possessions and give the proceeds to the Temple or the synagogue."

Of course, we can debate all day about whether our Lord was speaking metaphorically or not. The point is, the emphasis on giving was to the individual, not the organization.

 

[Bbrdrd]

I wouldn't say it was Ephesians 2:8-9 or any other expression of that truth that is at fault for the attitude you're denouncing.

Instead, it's the theological constructs that men have built to explain things like the atonement while entirely removing the human element.

Instead of being subjects of the sin and salvation story that we are part of Western theology places salvation as something entirely foreign to the individual. By stressing so strongly God's role in Salvation we become passengers in our own lives, objects that are being acted upon.

Even among those who profess free will there is still the old vestiges of absolute sovereign teachings that permeate Western theology. To suggest that we play an active role in our own salvation is seen as a heresy of the highest order. To suggest that James was combatting a misunderstanding of Paul is virulently fought against, the same for pointing out that Peter mentions that many misunderstand Paul to their own destruction.

Instead of reading the general epistles as generally applicable and the occasional epistles as limited to their context we flip it and see Paul as absolute and the general epistles as only applying in a limited context.

 

[DesertWanderer]

I wouldn't say it was Ephesians 2:8-9 or any other expression of that truth that is at fault for the attitude you're denouncing.

Right, I'm with you there. At no time would I ever suggest any part of the word of God would cause us to sin. Our misuse of the Word would, however.

Instead, it's the theological constructs that men have built to explain things like the atonement while entirely removing the human element.

I hadn't thought of it that way. Very interesting.

By stressing so strongly God's role in Salvation we become passengers in our own lives, objects that are being acted upon.

To your point, I have been taught that to think differently would be completely heretical. Would it be? If not, why?

You have opened up a possible new paradigm for me. If you have time, maybe you can point to other scriptures or bible stories so I can try and get a better handle on this. Thanks in advance.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Right, I'm with you there. At no time would I ever suggest any part of the word of God would cause us to sin. Our misuse of the Word would, however.



I hadn't thought of it that way. Very interesting.



To your point, I have been taught that to think differently would be completely heretical. Would it be? If not, why?

You have opened up a possible new paradigm for me. If you have time, maybe you can point to other scriptures or bible stories so I can try and get a better handle on this. Thanks in advance.

I wish I had time to give this a proper treatment to flesh it out more fully, but for now all I can say is it's primarily a weakness of developing systematic theologies. The East is often accused of promoting a synergistic salvation because they leave many of the tensions in the Bible in tact without seeking to build a system to resolve them.

Some passages that speak to the issue at hand is ones like Ezekiel 18 and Proverbs 11 along with tidbits such as Proverbs 12:28. The whole of western teaching on righteousness seems amiss to me when the picture painted by the general thrust of the old testament is considered. Especially in things like calls for absolute righteousness and the picture that men cannot be righteous in their own right but require an alien righteousness to be credited to them.

When I speak of man being absent in salvation I don't mean to imply we are in any way responsible for our own salvation but that the West has a tendency to make it something entirely foreign to our lives. Our sin is not our own because it is the sin transmitted from Adam and our salvation is merely a rectifying of that sin. This picture seems to be entirely at odds with the Old Testament narrative that paints each individual as responsible for their own sins and at no points indicates it is all at the feet of Adam.

I don't believe it is heretical to state we have an active role in our salvation story, we simply are not the cause of the salvation. Paul himself stated "For we are God's fellow workers;" in 1 Corinthians 3:9. And Jesus also when Peter asked him to wash his whole body replied "Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. " in John 13:10.

It's a tension we cannot separate between man's responsibility for his own life and God's sovereign choices, yet when we build theologies we cannot avoid landing on one side or the other.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

We can depend on the grace of the Lord to save us from our sin, but we are to give our sin to Christ for Him to forgive us. What of the sin we wish to keep? God gives us free will also, we are free to choose sin.

The OT outlines the way of the Lord, and we are given that outline as we are told of the of sins that blood God gave on the altar atoned for. It is a preview of Christ. One of the sins listed is the sins they were not aware of.

Yes we are free to choose sin, but we are not free to choose eternal life, otherwise, grace is no more grace.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-4

...and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mat. 20:28

I tried, but I did not see where it said that there would be tears in heaven.

In 1 Tim 2:4, the word "saved" is interpreted by Greek to mean "delivered". This deliverance is not referencing eternal deliverance, but it is referencing a deliverance, here in this world, when a babe in Christ comes unto a knowledge of the truth, which is God's righteousness, and not the old law of Mose

Matt 20:28, MANY does not mean ALL.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Forgive my ignorance as I am probably not as educated as you. This last statement went right past me.

Maybe you can offer a scriptural reference to help clarify? Thanks in advance

Before we are quickened to a new life, Eph 2, we do not have spiritual faith, which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that is given to indwell within us after we are quickened. After we are quickened, we already have eternal life.