Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[Magenta]

yet Jesus said His sheep know His voice and won't go with another

My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. John 10: 27

pause for intermission

John 10: 27-28

 

[preacher4truth]

If that be the case then salvation is the work of God from start to finish, and it also raises the question of why He only saves some and leaves others dead in their sins and trespasses.

Well, that is it exactly, He saves whom He wills to save, and grants both repentance and faith by grace. It is a work of God from start to finish, John 6:63 shows that in salvation the flesh profits nothing, it is all by the Spirit, and it isn't via mans will,. John 1:13.

So it stands, it is all of God from start to finish.

 

[Duskey]

it is all of God from start to finish.

Then why is it that so many calvinists are arrogant and cocky rather than humble and thankful? Asking for a friend. 😊

 

[EleventhHour]

The last line in the above post is very controversial and challenging. It sounds like man is entirely dependent on God to receive the ability to believe. Most Christians would disagree with this, most ministers teach that salvation is a joint effort between God and man. You claim that man can't even believe unless God gives him everything he needs to be able to believe in the first place.

I'm sure you believe that we are required to turn from our sin and repent, then we receive forgiveness and salvation. Are you saying that God causes us to turn from our sins and repent, as well. If that be the case then salvation is the work of God from start to finish, and it also raises the question of why He only saves some and leaves others dead in their sins and trespasses.

I don't expect you to answer all the above questions as I understand that God hasn't revealed everything to us in the Bible, but I'd like to know what your view is on these difficult subjects.

If you noticed there was no answer.

Scripture does not set up this dilemma, unanswerable question, but the dogma does.

 

[Duskey]

If you noticed there was no answer.

🦗 🦗 🦗

 

[dcontroversal]

God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth....

Not just the followers of Calvin!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The last line in the above post is very controversial and challenging. It sounds like man is entirely dependent on God to receive the ability to believe. Most Christians would disagree with this, most ministers teach that salvation is a joint effort between God and man. You claim that man can't even believe unless God gives him everything he needs to be able to believe in the first place.

I'm sure you believe that we are required to turn from our sin and repent, then we receive forgiveness and salvation. Are you saying that God causes us to turn from our sins and repent, as well. If that be the case then salvation is the work of God from start to finish, and it also raises the question of why He only saves some and leaves others dead in their sins and trespasses.

I don't expect you to answer all the above questions as I understand that God hasn't revealed everything to us in the Bible, but I'd like to know what your view is on these difficult subjects.

Only the man/woman that has ears to hear, and has a new heart in regeneration can repent of breaking a spiritual law. The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, does not have ears to hear the things of the Spirit, and thinks spiritual things are foolishness.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth....

Not just the followers of Calvin!

You are misinterpreting most of the salvation scriptures. Salvation, according to Greek interpretation, means "a deliverance".

There is "a deliverance" here in this world when a babe in Christ "comes unto a knowledge of the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 28: 9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast, For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.

After we are born again, we are babes in Christ, living spiritually upon the milk of the word. We gain knowledge gradually, as we study, and hear the gospel explained by those men who God has called to preach the gospel.

This is why, in Matt 10:6, Jesus instructs his Apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep (babes in Christ) of the house of Israel.

God does not call preachers for the purpose of preaching to the unregenerate that cannot discern the things of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14), to help them to be delivered (saved) eternally, because that is done only by the grace of God, without the help of man.

God's purpose in having his called preachers to preach to babes in Christ is so that they may be delivered (saved) from their lack of knowledge, of the righteousness of God, that is explained in the gospels.

This concept is further explained in Romans 10:1-3. Paul is praying that the babes in Christ, evidenced by the "zeal" of God that they had, of the house of Israel, might be delivered (saved) from their lack of knowledge of the gospel, and stop going about trying to establish their own righteousness, by their works.

 

[lenna]

This is why, in Matt 10:6, Jesus instructs his Apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep (babes in Christ) of the house of Israel.

can someone please explain to me ow a person is a babe in Christ and a lost sheep at the same time? no such thing

God's purpose in having his called preachers to preach to babes in Christ is so that they may be delivered (saved) from their lack of knowledge, of the righteousness of God, that is explained in the gospels.

word salad and ain't no dressing compatible with that

 

[lenna]

Well, that is it exactly, He saves whom He wills to save, and grants both repentance and faith by grace. It is a work of God from start to finish, John 6:63 shows that in salvation the flesh profits nothing, it is all by the Spirit, and it isn't via mans will,. John 1:13.

So it stands, it is all of God from start to finish.

yes, salvation is of God

so what happened in the garden?? God had perfection and yet Eve made a bad choice and Adam followed

an awful lot of trouble to go to just to save mankind all over again

why create flesh and blood people just to spiritualize everything?

why give Jesus a resurrected body that people could touch and was fed fish at the beach?

why why why why why why why why

Calvinism has no answers. At least provide some room for mystery as per the Bible.

 

[Nehemiah6]

“She” gave me three x’s in yesterday’s posts.

Which means that you need to bear three crosses.

 

[lenna]

Which means that you need to bear three crosses.

or maybe rebuke it in Jesus name. don't accept everything from the dark side. in fact, accept nothing

 

[ForestGreenCook]

can someone please explain to me ow a person is a babe in Christ and a lost sheep at the same time? no such thing



word salad and ain't no dressing compatible with that

There are many doctrine's taught on this forum, why do you suppose that is?

The only doctrine that contains the truth is the doctrine that Jesus taught. All others are false doctrines. Those that are promoting false doctrines are misguided babes in Christ who have been born again, but some preachers that teach a false doctrine has led them astray. Those that understand the doctrine that Jesus taught are instructed by God to go and teach these misguided babes in Christ.

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and to whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little

Those who are not weaned from the milk of the gospel are new born babes in Christ. They are lost from knowing the knowledge of God's righteousness, and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works.

 

[lenna]

There are many doctrine's taught on this forum, why do you suppose that is?

The only doctrine that contains the truth is the doctrine that Jesus taught. All others are false doctrines. Those that are promoting false doctrines are misguided babes in Christ who have been born again, but some preachers that teach a false doctrine has led them astray. Those that understand the doctrine that Jesus taught are instructed by God to go and teach these misguided babes in Christ.

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and to whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little

Those who are not weaned from the milk of the gospel are new born babes in Christ. They are lost from knowing the knowledge of God's righteousness, and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works.

and yours is one of the many

Those that understand the doctrine that Jesus taught are instructed by God to go and teach these misguided babes in Christ.

yeah. the letter kills and the Spirit gives life. you assume you are teaching here and somehow I am receiving it.

nope

 

[garee]

The last line in the above post is very controversial and challenging. It sounds like man is entirely dependent on God to receive the ability to believe. Most Christians would disagree with this, most ministers teach that salvation is a joint effort between God and man. You claim that man can't even believe unless God gives him everything he needs to be able to believe in the first place.

I'm sure you believe that we are required to turn from our sin and repent, then we receive forgiveness and salvation. Are you saying that God causes us to turn from our sins and repent, as well. If that be the case then salvation is the work of God from start to finish, and it also raises the question of why He only saves some and leaves others dead in their sins and trespasses.

I don't expect you to answer all the above questions as I understand that God hasn't revealed everything to us in the Bible, but I'd like to know what your view is on these difficult subjects.

Thanks I can try.

I would agree a joint effort. But again he must do the first work in us that were dead in our trespasses and sin awakening our new souls .Some would call the a resurrected soul giving new spirit life that will never die

Giving us ears to hear the gospel His understanding. Then in turn with our new tongue we can praise him for the good work he has begun in us. The promise spoken of in Philippians 1: 6 which points to the source in the next chapter 2. verse 13-14 .

Verse 14 chapter 2 shows His Spirit works with us . He lovingly commands us to beleive without murmuring. Understanding He must do the first works. Hebrew 6 promises us of the blessing that acompanies salvation .He will not forget the good works we worked with him that we do offer according to His saving Power.

Christ as Emanuel in us working with us making our burden lighter. Christ our Sabbath rest.

Philippians 1:6 King James Version (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Philippians 2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Repentance is a work of God. is defined in the parable in Jerimiah.

Two turning first God turn and gives ears to those that have no custom of believing a unseen God . and then after turned they can repent and comfort their own selves

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

Repentance is a work that he works in us giving us His understanding as to how to seek after Him who has no form so that in turn we can return to our first love, the inward experience in believing a God not seen .the first work of God working in us .(beleive) This is when we do fall.

If he does not do the first work to turn us then we cannot return.

Revelation 2 gives us a example of one of the sects some gave that honor to their leader ship, the things seen and not the unseen Father .

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; (beleive) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation2:4-7

 

[ScottyPchristian]

Well, that is it exactly, He saves whom He wills to save, and grants both repentance and faith by grace. It is a work of God from start to finish, John 6:63 shows that in salvation the flesh profits nothing, it is all by the Spirit, and it isn't via mans will,. John 1:13.

So it stands, it is all of God from start to finish.

I've been listening to some sermons on sermonaudio.com and I came across a preacher by the name of Charles Lawson. He seems to be very passionate and devoted to preaching the truth of Gods Word. But I was surprised when he rubbished John calvin and others who believe in election.
He sighted a verse in Johns gospel, where Christ mentioned that He has sheep not of this flock. He quoted a few other scriptures to make the point that it's up to each individual to come before God in repentance and faith.

After listening to some debates on sermonaudio on the topic of predestination and there were compelling arguments on both sides, so I've been digging deeper into the topic and I'm finding that there's a big division in the Church over this matter.

I've found more scriptures which support predestination and election than those like "choose ye this day who you will serve" and the most popular one, John 3:16

Election doesn't seem fair, from a human stand point so maybe we weren't meant to go too deep into God's sovereign reason for electing some and not others. My brother said that a God who creates some, whom He knows won't be saved is an evil God. He said he could never believe in a God like that. He's a Roman Catholic and this has made him even more weary of my conversion to evangelical Christianity. He was already suspicious but this topic has infuriated him and turned him off ever coming to visit my Church.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There are many doctrine's taught on this forum, why do you suppose that is?

The only doctrine that contains the truth is the doctrine that Jesus taught. All others are false doctrines. Those that are promoting false doctrines are misguided babes in Christ who have been born again, but some preachers that teach a false doctrine has led them astray. Those that understand the doctrine that Jesus taught are instructed by God to go and teach these misguided babes in Christ.

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and to whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little

Those who are not weaned from the milk of the gospel are new born babes in Christ. They are lost from knowing the knowledge of God's righteousness, and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works.

and yours is one of the many



yeah. the letter kills and the Spirit gives life. you assume you are teaching here and somehow I am receiving it.

nope

Some study to harmonize the scriptures, and some do not. Most of my life I had trouble in trying to study the scriptures, when I ran across scriptures that , seemingly, contradicted each other, mostly, they were scriptures that referenced "salvation". I was stubborn, and thought I was smart enough, that with hard studying, and the help of Strong's concordance, I could figure it out. After 12 years of trying, I gave up, and thought I would have to be content in never understanding the scriptures. At age 62, and denying my smartness, the scriptures began, gradually, to start harmonizing together, by the revelation of the Holy Spirit within me.

I realised the reason that I was not able to figure it out, is because I was depending upon my entellect, and not denying myself. Had the Holy Spirit revealed the understanding of the scriptures, before I denied myself, I would have taken the credit myself, instead of giving God the credit.

I also learned that the scriptures that we do not understand, we can't just ignore them, because all of the scriptures must harmonize before you are able to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Thanks I can try.

I would agree a joint effort. But again he must do the first work in us that were dead in our trespasses and sin awakening our new souls .Some would call the a resurrected soul giving new spirit life that will never die

Giving us ears to hear the gospel His understanding. Then in turn with our new tongue we can praise him for the good work he has begun in us. The promise spoken of in Philippians 1: 6 which points to the source in the next chapter 2. verse 13-14 .

Verse 14 chapter 2 shows His Spirit works with us . He lovingly commands us to beleive without murmuring. Understanding He must do the first works. Hebrew 6 promises us of the blessing that acompanies salvation .He will not forget the good works we worked with him that we do offer according to His saving Power.

Christ as Emanuel in us working with us making our burden lighter. Christ our Sabbath rest.

Philippians 1:6 King James Version (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Philippians 2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Repentance is a work of God. is defined in the parable in Jerimiah.

Two turning first God turn and gives ears to those that have no custom of believing a unseen God . and then after turned they can repent and comfort their own selves

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

Repentance is a work that he works in us giving us His understanding as to how to seek after Him who has no form so that in turn we can return to our first love, the inward experience in believing a God not seen .the first work of God working in us .(beleive) This is when we do fall.

If he does not do the first work to turn us then we cannot return.

Revelation 2 gives us a example of one of the sects some gave that honor to their leader ship, the things seen and not the unseen Father .

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; (beleive) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation2:4-7

I agree with most of what you are saying, but I am a little confused, as to your statement that God turns us. Can you explain your understanding of how God turns the unregenerate person, with scripture explanation, to help me understand your reasoning?

 

[ScottyPchristian]

Only the man/woman that has ears to hear, and has a new heart in regeneration can repent of breaking a spiritual law. The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, does not have ears to hear the things of the Spirit, and thinks spiritual things are foolishness.

There's a lot of food for thought in this short comment, it helps me make sense of why some of my highly educated friends reject the gospel and mock it as foolishness. It seems the more educated a person is, the less likely they are to believe the gospel.

Gods ways are very mysterious and He hasn't revealed much about Himself to us, so we just have to humbly accept what He has revealed and be happy with it. I've seen some try to explain why God does what He does, and they end up more confused then when they started.

God could have told us why He creates some vessels for honorable use and some for dishonorable use. It's like the clay asking the potter, why did you shape in in this fashion. The Serpent promised Eve that she could be something special if she just ate that fruit. We all get into trouble when we leave our post and try to be something special, Lucifer is a good example.

 

[ScottyPchristian]

Thanks I can try.

I would agree a joint effort. But again he must do the first work in us that were dead in our trespasses and sin awakening our new souls .Some would call the a resurrected soul giving new spirit life that will never die

Giving us ears to hear the gospel His understanding. Then in turn with our new tongue we can praise him for the good work he has begun in us. The promise spoken of in Philippians 1: 6 which points to the source in the next chapter 2. verse 13-14 .

Verse 14 chapter 2 shows His Spirit works with us . He lovingly commands us to beleive without murmuring. Understanding He must do the first works. Hebrew 6 promises us of the blessing that acompanies salvation .He will not forget the good works we worked with him that we do offer according to His saving Power.

Christ as Emanuel in us working with us making our burden lighter. Christ our Sabbath rest.

Philippians 1:6 King James Version (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Philippians 2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Repentance is a work of God. is defined in the parable in Jerimiah.

Two turning first God turn and gives ears to those that have no custom of believing a unseen God . and then after turned they can repent and comfort their own selves

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

Repentance is a work that he works in us giving us His understanding as to how to seek after Him who has no form so that in turn we can return to our first love, the inward experience in believing a God not seen .the first work of God working in us .(beleive) This is when we do fall.

If he does not do the first work to turn us then we cannot return.

Revelation 2 gives us a example of one of the sects some gave that honor to their leader ship, the things seen and not the unseen Father .

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; (beleive) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation2:4-7

I appreciate the detailed summary, but there's a lot to consider in all those scriptures. It's probably more than I can process in the time I have available.
I was hoping you would have given me the answer in a bite size portion, but you've been exceedingly generous and filled my plate to more than I can deal with as I'm still being weaned of the milk I was trying to get an idea of how the "joint effort" salvation model looks like in practical terms.
I'm convinced that God makes the first move, then He expects us to do certain things and what happens if we don't do them as required to get a ticket to heaven.