We already have peace with God

[Peterlag]

Hello again Peterlag, until my last post to you, the only thing that I've done in reply to your posts was to ask you questions about them, but instead of answering any of them, you've either ignored them, tried to talk your way past them, and/or changed the subject. I asked you these questions to try to understand what you were saying/where you were coming from, not to attack you.

You've also made a number of "factual" statements that did not ring true to me, so I asked you about them. I never said that you were wrong, but I did ask you to show us some evidence to prove that what you were saying was true, but you've never provided us with a thing. Why?

Look, if I told you that Germany, not the United States, made it to the moon first, would you chose to believe it just because I said it, or do you think that you'd want to see some proof (since Germany, as far as you know, 1. doesn't have space program, and 2. has never sent a man to the moon)

Finally, you continue to tell us that we can't understand you because we aren't Christians (because we have "carnal", not spiritual minds). If that's actually true about us, then you are correct .. 1 Corinthians 2:14.

On the other hand, since that's what you think about us, then why aren't you treating us like non-Christians (by praying for us and patiently/lovingly attempting to present the Gospel to us), rather than going on and on about spiritual matters that you know (and have told us plainly) we have no hope of understanding anyway

Quite frankly, what could you possibly hope to accomplish by doing this (if you truly think that we are all unbelievers)

Thanks!

~Deut

I have no clue why you keep saying I don't answer questions. I'm one of the most honest blunt people on the planet and so when someone says I'm dodging questions... it leaves me thinking it must be because they cannot understand what I write. And since I write about Christ is what makes me think that I'm not understood because of the many on here with a carnal mind. And carnal I see on here as folks ask me many carnal questions. You have asked me what are the items people use to try to justify themselves.

How long of a list do you need? If I say some believe they are justified by going to church. You will say what's wrong with going to church?

 

[Deuteronomy]

Have you ever noticed that so many of our churches have a very large list of different human carnal rules and regulations they try to get us to live by? Our churches today have far too many ways they keep trying to get us to redeem ourselves and obtain our own righteousness. It almost drives me insane to hear them say they are not doing the very thing they are doing—teaching for the truth of God’s Word, the commandments of people.

Hello @Peterlag, when I asked you for specific evidence (to validate what you said in the OP about our churches), I asked you for ~official~ church teachings, meaning doctrines, SoF, creeds, catechisms, etc.), but you answered by referring to the sinful deeds, habits and beliefs of some ~individuals~ instead.

I also mentioned leaving the Roman Catholic Church out of the mix when you answered, because I realize that much of what you said is true of that church.

So (again) what I am looking for from you is evidence (in the form of ~official~ church doctrine/teachings) that demonstrates/proves your claim concerning our Protestant churches, in general, that they are guilty of teaching the commandments of men as if they were the truth of God's word to our congregants.

How about starting out with a single item from your endless list to get things going?

Thank you!

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

I have no clue why you keep saying I don't answer questions. I'm one of the most honest blunt people on the planet and so when someone says I'm dodging questions... it leaves me thinking it must be because they cannot understand what I write. And since I write about Christ is what makes me think that I'm not understood because of the many on here with a carnal mind. And carnal I see on here as folks ask me many carnal questions. You have asked me what are the items people use to try to justify themselves.

What you wrote in bold above is something that I NEVER asked you. You must have me confused with someone else.

As for what is underlined above, if that's what you believe, that we have carnal minds (and are therefore unbelievers), then why are you still talking to us as if we can understand spiritual matters Why are you not treating us like unbelievers (if that's what you believe we really are) by lovingly presenting the Gospel to us and doing all that you can to lead us towards the Christian faith, rather than chasing us all away from it?

~Deut

 

[Peterlag]

What you wrote in bold above is something that I NEVER asked you. You must have me confused with someone else.

As for what is underlined above, if that's what you believe, that we have carnal minds (and are therefore unbelievers), then why are you still talking to us as if we can understand spiritual matters Why are you not treating us like unbelievers (if that's what you believe we really are) by lovingly presenting the Gospel to us and doing all that you can to lead us towards the Christian faith, rather than chasing us all away from it?

~Deut

Then I have you confused with someone else which can be easily done on this site since I have hundreds of folks looking at my posts and dozens responding to me daily on this very thread. I post here for people that might want to learn about the resurrected Christ. Another huge problem is people ask me 5 questions on one post and 15 other people comment on how I answer one question and then quote me out of the context of who I was responding to. So tell me what is the ONE question you have that you say I don't answer?

 

[Peterlag]

Hello @Peterlag, when I asked you for specific evidence (to validate what you said in the OP about our churches), I asked you for ~official~ church teachings, meaning doctrines, SoF, creeds, catechisms, etc.), but you answered by referring to the sinful deeds, habits and beliefs of some ~individuals~ instead.

I also mentioned leaving the Roman Catholic Church out of the mix when you answered, because I realize that much of what you said is true of that church.

So (again) what I am looking for from you is evidence (in the form of ~official~ church doctrine/teachings) that demonstrates/proves your claim concerning our Protestant churches, in general, that they are guilty of teaching the commandments of men as if they were the truth of God's word to our congregants.

How about starting out with a single item from your endless list to get things going?

Thank you!

~Deut

So I have been answering your question all along. You say I'm not because you have not liked my answer. I will post it again...

It's totally impossible for people to immortalize themselves and attain the righteousness of God by participating in sacraments such as to pray, praise, and give thanks. It's not the hymns, chorales, chants, or the instrumental music. It's not the buildings for worship, the art, the architecture, the kneeling, dipping, dunking, chanting, counting, lighting, confessing our sins or moral and political behavior.

Many Christians try to earn God’s righteousness by being a good person, a good member of their church, a good father or mother, or a good child. Some try by being a good worker, a good student, a wonderful husband or wife, and a good neighbor. Some try by singing more hymns, by running to the altar, by confessing their sins, and by being a law-abiding citizen. Others try by water baptism, the Old Testament Law, the rosary, fasting, giving to their church, and giving to the poor. These are all nice and wonderful dynamic moral commitments that, at best, are only the commandments of people.

Jesus once told the religious leaders of his time they were teaching for the truth of God’s Word, “the commandments of men.” It appears we continue to do the same in our day and time. People can never win the right to stand before God’s righteousness through their own traditions and ordinances, which at best, are only the consequences of the commandments of people. The only begotten Son, who is in the Father’s love, comfort, and rest, has declared and unfolded the concealed things of God once and for all.

 

[Deuteronomy]

So I have been answering your question all along. You say I'm not because you have not liked my answer. I will post it again...

It's totally impossible for people to immortalize themselves and attain the righteousness of God by participating in sacraments such as to pray, praise, and give thanks. It's not the hymns, chorales, chants, or the instrumental music. It's not the buildings for worship, the art, the architecture, the kneeling, dipping, dunking, chanting, counting, lighting, confessing our sins or moral and political behavior.

Many Christians try to earn God’s righteousness by being a good person, a good member of their church, a good father or mother, or a good child. Some try by being a good worker, a good student, a wonderful husband or wife, and a good neighbor. Some try by singing more hymns, by running to the altar, by confessing their sins, and by being a law-abiding citizen. Others try by water baptism, the Old Testament Law, the rosary, fasting, giving to their church, and giving to the poor. These are all nice and wonderful dynamic moral commitments that, at best, are only the commandments of people.

Jesus once told the religious leaders of his time they were teaching for the truth of God’s Word, “the commandments of men.” It appears we continue to do the same in our day and time. People can never win the right to stand before God’s righteousness through their own traditions and ordinances, which at best, are only the consequences of the commandments of people. The only begotten Son, who is in the Father’s love, comfort, and rest, has declared and unfolded the concealed things of God once and for all.

Once again, you have refused to answer my questions. As you are well aware by now, I am looking for SPECIFIC/OFFICIAL Protestant doctrinal teachings (from a Statement of Faith, a Creed, a Catechism, etc.) but you've gone back to talking about what some of our congregants believe and practice as individuals, and what the Lord Jesus told the Pharisees over 2,000 years ago.

Here is an example of what I'm looking for. This doctrinal statement excerpt, concerning "God" in this case, is part of Grace Community Church's SoP (Statement of Faith). This is the kind of ~official~ church teaching that I am referring to, and have been looking for from you since the get-go, as evidence/proof that what you said about our churches in the OP is true.

God​

We teach that there is but one living and true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 45:5-7; 1 Corinthians 8:4), an infinite, all-knowing Spirit (John 4:24), perfect in all His attributes, one in essence, eternally existing in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14)—each equally deserving worship and obedience.​

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God the Father. We teach that God the Father, the first Person of the Trinity, orders and disposes all things according to His own purpose and grace (Psalm 145:8-9; 1 Corinthians 8:6). He is the Creator of all things (Genesis 1:1-31; Ephesians 3:9). As the only absolute and omnipotent Ruler in the universe, He is sovereign in creation, providence, and redemption (Psalm 103:19; Romans 11:36). His fatherhood involves both His designation within the Trinity and His relationship with mankind. As Creator He is Father to all men (Ephesians 4:6), but He is spiritual Father only to believers (Romans 8:14; 2 Corinthians 6:18). He has decreed for His own glory all things that come to pass (Ephesians 1:11). He continually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and events (1 Chronicles 29:11). In His sovereignty He is neither the author nor approver of sin (Habakkuk 1:13; John 8:38-47), nor does He abridge the accountability of moral, intelligent creatures (1 Peter 1:17). He has graciously chosen from eternity past those whom He would have as His own (Ephesians 1:4-6); He saves from sin all who come to Him through Jesus Christ; He adopts as His own all those who come to Him; and He becomes, upon adoption, Father to His own (John 1:12; Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:5; Hebrews 12:5-9).​

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

Here is another example of the kind of thing that I am looking for. It's one of our historic creeds, one that we share as Christians in general, both Protestant and Catholic. Perhaps something in this creed demonstrates the problems that you've told us we have with our churches' teachings, heresies that are leading us all astray If so, please show us the offending portions of the creed and tell us why you believe they are heretical.

*(the word "catholic" in this creed means "universal", IOW, it is NOT in specific reference to the Roman Catholic Church)

The Athanasian Creed​

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic* faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.​

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And the catholic* faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.​

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But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.​

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Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.​

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This is the catholic* faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.​

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