Maybe. I agree with the trinitarian commentary in NET on Genesis 16:7.
https://netbible.org/bible/Genesis+16
What is your response to the questions I asked in post #115 and post #116?
What does it "REALLY" mean that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?
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Maybe. I agree with the trinitarian commentary in NET on Genesis 16:7.
https://netbible.org/bible/Genesis+16
What is your response to the questions I asked in post #115 and post #116?
For those who are concerned about clicking on links, here’s what the commentary on Genesis 16:7 says.
”26 tn Heb ‘the messenger of the LORD.’ Some identify the angel of the LORD as the preincarnate Christ because in some texts the angel is identified with the LORD himself. However, it is more likely that the angel merely represents the LORD; he can speak for the LORD because he is sent with the LORD’s full authority. In some cases the angel is clearly distinct from the LORD (see Judg 6:11-23). It is not certain if the angel is always in view. Though the proper name following the noun ‘angel’ makes the construction definite, this may simply indicate that a definite angel sent from the LORD is referred to in any given context. It need not be the same angel on every occasion. Note the analogous expression ‘the servant of the LORD,’ which refers to various individuals in the OT...’
United Methodist pastor, professor and author Ben Witherington III writes in The Living Word of God: Rethinking the Theology of the Bible,
“The Trinity is not really mentioned in the Old Testament. The angel of the Lord is just that - an angel. The angel of the Lord is a special representative or messenger of God to God’s people, and according to the ancient concept of agency, he could be considered to be the Lord who sent them, and was to be treated as if he were the the one who sent them.”
(p. 224)
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Living_Word_of_God.html?id=xEvXKTG9Mf4C
“The Trinity is not really mentioned in the Old Testament. The angel of the Lord is just that - an angel. The angel of the Lord is a special representative or messenger of God to God’s people, and according to the ancient concept of agency, he could be considered to be the Lord who sent them, and was to be treated as if he were the the one who sent them.”
(p. 224)
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Living_Word_of_God.html?id=xEvXKTG9Mf4C
Hi Mattiathias. Let me say it's impossible that the angel of the Lord is just an angel like Michael or Gabriel. I will expand or prove what I say later today. I am out of town and will be home 5 hours. I will also gladly address the question you ask me. In the meantime please read Genesis 18 and identify the three persons talking to Abraham?
bluto
Sorry, I though I had.
God is not a man.
God can from the womb of mankind (daughters of men) create and form the Son of man, Jesus in respect to the first born of the brethren (sons of man) As he did working in Mary' corrupted earthen body of death body.
Mathew 4. The Son of man, Jesus the apostle after 40 days .Was tempted by the god of this world but the Son of man had no power to appear (flesh and blood ,That would be of another kind God creates after kinds. . The kind (antichrist) that attempted to move Jesus to do the will of the flesh .offered all the kingdoms of the world. . by the god of this world . The father having the power to rebuke the spirit of lies put words on Jesus lips and spoke the words of His God and father. Three times he was inspired to say as it is written again and again . The power of rebuking through that worked in the apostle Jesus caused that spirit (antichrist) to get lost in the wind or go enter a pig and take a long walk off a cliff.
The "Word/Logos as John 1:1 is the faithful word the father. The word by faith he worked to put on the Son of Man lips .
The spoken word giving us his faith so we can beleive Him not seen.
We as did Jesus have the treasure of that power as the power of God. Not after the corrupted flesh us,
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
The three men (three denoting the end of a matter) are mankind "men sent". From where we get the word "apostle". (men or woman prophets as apostles sent with the message of God) as messenger they are called angels. They do the will of the lord that sends them just like Jesus the Son of man. . these were men. The homosexuals' wanted nothing to do with woman they apposed the will of God, doing the opposite. Turning the things of God upside down. Making men gods in the likeness of men (Acts14) Turning shame into false fame (gods)
Something happens wrong in this kind of logic/ explanation and a little twist where you took-off the unity of the divine and human nature of Christ. The divine nature of Christ is unchangeable being united with his human nature. The two nature co-exist in the personality of Christ. It’s a poor excuse to say that just because he is a divine person could not become a human person and hence, Jesus is not a human person. This is an an argument of semantics. Your view is corrupted by wrong premise and may deny the humanity of Christ. Basically, it is the divine person assumed a human nature, for with God nothing is impossible. God manifested in the flesh, he took himself in the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. At the incarnation, the two natures are inseparable. Christ is God-man.
I don’t actually live in those “Creed” by men but the only “creed’ for me is the Bible, a basic tenet of ‘the Baptist’. Well for Anabaptist as re-baptizer is a common namesake for a persecuted bible believer who actually baptized in biblical baptism. They were persecuted alike by Catholics and Protestants. Anabaptist were the same as the Baptist of old and those anabaptist flourished in the 16th century can be traced to the primitive faith down to the Apostles. Bible believers that believe in ‘believers’ baptism’ were given names according to their place or the name of their leader or what they practice. The old landmark of faith, the Baptist is the same as Anabaptist, however, with the mixture of some, like Menno Simmons or the Menonnite who retain some of its Catholic teaching is considered a new breed and is not a pure line of the so called the “Baptist”.
Trinitarians who believe the angel of the Lord is an angel, not the preincarnate Son, almost always acknowledge that the angel of the Lord is special.
When I was a trinitarian I believed what you believe about the angel of the Lord. JAT (Joe Average Trinitarian - which is what I was in those days) almost always believes as you believe. It’s the only explanation JAT has ever heard. The Church hasn’t insisted that it is true, nor that it is an essential tenet of trinitarianism. JAT doesn’t know that. He assumes that it has. In fact, JAT knows little about Church history and couldn’t care less. This is yet another example of the trinitarian clergy failing the people in their care.
You might be interested to know that I was a trinitarian when I became convinced (by fellow trinitarians) that the Son is not the angel of the Lord, and remained a trinitarian for years afterward. Trinitarianism doesn’t depend on it. It never has. It is an interpretation, not the only interpretation. That sounds like heresy, if not outright blasphemy, to JAT. It shouldn’t.
I don’t think there’s any need for me to post quotations from trinitarian scholars and theologians who share your understanding, but I will if you ask me to. I may or may not post additional quotes from trinitarians who share my understanding.
My position doesn’t depend on the concessions of trinitarian scholars and theologians, but it is helped by them. I seldom quote unitarian scholarship when conversing with trinitarians, for what should be obvious reasons. I can sometimes gain a hearing with trinitarians for my position by quoting concessions of their scholars.
Turnabout is fair play. If you desire to do so, you may quote concessions of unitarian scholarship to your position. There are branches of unitarianism which believe the Son is the angel of the Lord. If you‘re unaware of them, and ask me to, I’ll quote some of them for you.
I would suggest God is not a man.
God whose name is Jealous seeing he owns all things and is of one mind always doing whatsoever His soul desires. He will not give his unseen glory to corrupted flesh. The Son of man Jesus who lived in corrupted flesh he inherited from His Mother was used to reflect glory but it is not the source of light of the power of His glory . Jesus as the Son of man did not do the will of His corrupted flesh. Again he was a reflection of the unseen glory that worked in him . Revealing the glory of the light of His Fathers power.
I think that can be seen by looking to the foundation of this temporal world And comparing it to the new beginning the heavenly Jerusalem as a parallel parable, the new eternal church.
I have been thinking how it reflects his glory from a glory perspective. I would offer in in respect to His unseen glory that does work in us who believe.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
The Bible informs us its three things that make up the essence of our unseen God. God is glorious Light .God is eternal Spirit .and God is Love. Those are not attributes. As a attributes God can create light as it did on day four. the heavens declare the glory . But they also declare the wrath. It would seem day three with three representing the end of a matter God found pride in the heart of Satan and corrupted the whole creation . Switching on the temporal the power of the Sun to beginning the corruption time keeper (you shall surely die) also called under the Sun in Ecclesiastics
His Holy presence departed which was the light of the world for three days. Defining "light" of day as Good and the darkness of night as no blessings from God. (No sabbath rest in ones work. )
Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
You could say a self introduction "the light of his presence". God is Light. He apparently hid to cause night to represent evil
Genesis 1:13-19 And the evening and the morning were the third day. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
The word good is reserved for God's unseen approval as a seal
When the corruption time keeper winds out .Then the Sun and mon will be under the feet of the bride, the new heaven Jerusalem and again the Glory of God will be the light and the son a reflection as one incorruptible glory . The Glory, Glory, Glory . . . or Holy Holy Holy. His gospel marches on.
Revelation 12:1-2And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Revelation 21: 21-22 King James Version (KJV)2 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
I'm home, finally. You know Mattathias why is it that you have this "crusade" against trinitarianism? You have mentione the word in just about every post even when it's not the subject. Even on this subject you made a point of quoting a source like the NET Bible/Daniel Wallace and have to mention he's a trinitarian, so what?
Now in this post your making "assumptions" about me (and yes, I am a trinitarian) but that has nothing to do with us discussing the angel of the Lord. There are trinitarians that do not believe the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, and that's alright because our salvation is not based on Jesus being or not being the angel of the Lord.
What I'm about to present to is strickly Bible based and I will not used any outside sources to support my position. I think for myself but that does "NOT" mean I use outside sources like Lexicons, Commentaries, Dictionaries and the like. I also have an open mind in that I'm "teachable." In other words, over the last 58 years as a Christian I have changed my position on issues. One of the main ones was I use to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. This is a teaching that the Calvary Chapel Churches adhere to and where I attend church. Now, I'm a post-tribulationist after further study and I'm absolutely comfortable in my own skin on this issue and am able to "Biblically" support my position. As Dr. Martin use to say, "Know what you believe and why you beleive it." (1 Peter 3:15). I will use another post in discussing the angel of the Lord issue.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
No you didn't garee. The question is simple. Why cannot God become a man? In other words, angels are spiritual beings who cannot be seen. However, God uses them in Scripture to be seen by the angels taking the form of a man. That's what happened at Genesis 18 regarding two of the angels/men there. This does not mean that angels have the nature of a man, they simply appeared to be men. So again, why can't God also become a man?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
He is tempted yet w.o sin. Thanks for the offer but I won't buy it.
King James Bible
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin
My crusade is for the God of Jesus, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. Crusades against trinitarianism aren’t allowed on this forum.
JAT doesn’t know that his scholars and theologians make concessions to unitarianism. Sometimes JAT will listen to what trinitarian scholars/theologians say. Very rarely will JAT listen to what unitarian scholars/theologians say.
There always have been and likely always will be. Again, JAT doesn’t know that. Rejection of the identification of the Son as the angel of the Lord is commonly viewed by JAT as a unitarian heresy/blasphemy. It’s not. (Neither is rejection of that identification a trinitarian heresy/blasphemy.) Consider this a PSA, and the removal of a blockade to the unitarian faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God for He is the only human to ever be conceived by the Holy Spirit where all the saints are adopted in to the kingdom.
There is no God the Son for if He has no beginning then how is He a Son, and if they say He has a beginning as God the Bible says there was no God formed before Him, and there shall be no God formed after Him.
One God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title for God, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.
Not 3 persons in a trinity, but the 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles.
Father- Creator of all things, and parent of the saints.
Son- God's visible relationship to the saints, and God in visible activity.
Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints, and God is invisible activity, which the Spirit moved in creation, and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, and the Spirit dwells in the saints.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God for He is the only human to ever be conceived by the Holy Spirit where all the saints are adopted in to the kingdom.
There is no God the Son for if He has no beginning then how is He a Son, and if they say He has a beginning as God the Bible says there was no God formed before Him, and there shall be no God formed after Him.
One God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title for God, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.
Not 3 persons in a trinity, but the 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles.
Father- Creator of all things, and parent of the saints.
Son- God's visible relationship to the saints, and God in visible activity.
Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints, and God is invisible activity, which the Spirit moved in creation, and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, and the Spirit dwells in the saints.
As I’ve documented, it comes to us from the Council of Chalcedon. It is embraced by Catholicism and Protestantism.
It’s not my view. It’s the view of historical orthodox trinitarianism. It’s the view of Catholicism and Protestantism which you are calling “corrupted by wrong premise”.
Thank you. I’m truly touched by your testimony about my Anabaptist heritage.
I'm not talking about "crusades" against trinitarianism on this board. I meant it for you personally. You also stated you use to be a Trinitarian, aren't "Anabaptis" Trinitarians? I can also sense there is "tension" in your heart. Especially when you mentioned you were a "pacifist" and you brought up the subject of killing. I can understand that but I think there's more going on with you than just that. Anyway, I will get back to our discussion of the angel of the Lord.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I would not try a sell what you would not buy. We are to buy his truth the gospel and not sell it.
I agree temped by his corrupted flesh but did the will of Him who empowered the Son of man to both to work together to do the one will of God.
Jesus did it without murmuring nor did the father
Philipian2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
His strength is made perfect in these bodies of death the burden made lighter. Just as with the Son of man .Yet without sin.
Thanks for the reply.
I would offer men who violate the letter of the aw (death) have the nature of death. in dying your will return to the dust you were formed from and your temporal spirt return to God the father of all spirit life.
He can't become a Man. . . because he is God. Not a man .Just like a Cat cannot become a Whale
The Lord sent his 3 apostles messengers with His prophecy the word of God . Sometimes he sends them out two by two to baptize men with the gospel of faith
Job said it as below .God is not a man and neither is there a corrupted fleshly infallible mediator set between God not seen the eternal and man seen the temporal .
Man has a beginning "dust and water' and spirit life breathed in . .God has no DNA he remains supernatural without beginning of Spirt life and without end of the same Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ .The good teacher. In that way we call no man on earth Good Teacher. .Jesus said one is Good . . God no seen.
Job9:30-33 If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me. For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
I mentioned elsewhere, perhaps in a conversation with someone else, that some Anabaptists are trinitarians and some Anabaptists are unitarians.
I’m looking forward to reading your response to my questions.