My take on water baptism...

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Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Peter and the 11 understood "all the world/all nations" differently from you.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The 12 were determined to make sure that the nation Israel had to repent and believe that Jesus is the Messiah first, before all the other nations can be reached.

That is the timetable. And as far as the Acts account went, they never did manage to convince the nation leaders to do so. The entire Acts account tells us about the fall of the nation Israel.

Until the nation Israel accepted their Messiah, Peter reminded Cornelius that it was unlawful for them to keep company with gentiles. How then could they reach all nations when it was against their Law in the first place?

Those of us in the church today who are claiming they are following the Great Commission are not following it, as the 12 understood what it really meant. So don't kid yourself.
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

ENDS OF THE EARTH. Did the Apostles also understand this to be just in Judea? Even tho it says Judea and Samaria AND ends of the earth, man... how DUMB do you think the Apostles were?

Just cut this thing already man. Nehemiah already showed you the great commission, AFTER the resurrection so even according to dispies its New Testament teaching, (cause they dont understand a testament is given before a man dies, then comes to effect after death, thats another issue) and it includes BAPTISM and teaching. CASE CLOSED.

Acts 1:8 backs it up which is another POST RESURRECTION event where Jesus says not only Judea, not only Samaria but ENDS OF THE EARTH. The same the same the same.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

ENDS OF THE EARTH. Did the Apostles also understand this to be just in Judea? Even tho it says Judea and Samaria AND ends of the earth, man... how DUMB do you think the Apostles were?

Just cut this thing already man. Nehemiah already showed you the great commission, AFTER the resurrection so even according to dispies its New Testament teaching, (cause they dont understand a testament is given before a man dies, then comes to effect after death, thats another issue) and it includes BAPTISM and teaching. CASE CLOSED.

Acts 1:8 backs it up which is another POST RESURRECTION event where Jesus says not only Judea, not only Samaria but ENDS OF THE EARTH. The same the same the same.
I already stated that, according to the OT prophetic timetable, Israel as a nation must repent and accept their Messiah, BEFORE the gentile nations can be reached.

Are you disagreeing with that sequence, as spelt in Luke's version of the great commission?

By the time you reach Acts 28, Paul pronounced the entire nation blinded (vs26-28). Israel never accepted Jesus as their Messiah, even up till now.
 
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lenna

Guest
Obviously the moment Paul was saved, thru that blinding light, the mystery had yet to be revealed to him correct?

As far as everyone is present at that time, water baptism was still required.

The revelation of the mystery was only given to Paul later. My view is that it was revealed during the years Paul spent in Arabia (Galatians 1:17)

you are simply fudging all over the place

Paul who knew who Jesus was right away and was taught by the Holy Spirit for 3 years in Arabia

the only mystery here is how you do not or possibly cannot see, that to be so since it is plain in scripture

yes baptism is absolutely still required, but it does not literally wash away sins, only the blood of Christ does that...I think you would agree there?
 
Aug 1, 2020
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Not so...we are born again while on this earth.....we are not saved until God judges and grants such status.
If we could be saved while on this earth then God's judgement would be pointless...don't you see? If we were ...saved...while on this earth and chose to return to a sinful way...we wouldn't fit the ...saved...status..would we.?
A born again Christian IS saved, and nothing can change that. When I say "saved" it is to be understood that the culmination of the purchased possession is when Jesus returns to claim his church. The only thing a saved Christian will be judged for is rewards.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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you are simply fudging all over the place

Paul who knew who Jesus was right away and was taught by the Holy Spirit for 3 years in Arabia

the only mystery here is how you do not or possibly cannot see, that to be so since it is plain in scripture

yes baptism is absolutely still required, but it does not literally wash away sins, only the blood of Christ does that...I think you would agree there?
Water baptism is no longer required for anyone since the offer of the Kingdom to Israel has been withdrawn.

The nation is now blinded by God (Romans 11:11). Both Jews and Gentiles are now saved individually thru 1 Cor 15:1-4.

I can see you don't believe in the mystery of the dispensation of grace, that Paul talks about in Ephesians 3:9
 
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lenna

Guest
I can see you don't believe in the mystery of the dispensation of grace, that Paul talks about in Ephesians 3:9

Water baptism is no longer required for anyone since the offer of the Kingdom to Israel has been withdrawn.

The nation is now blinded by God (Romans 11:11). Both Jews and Gentiles are now saved individually thru 1 Cor 15:1-4.

you are ridiculous and it looks like you just want to argue about something

this thread is not about grace or Israel

I have not discussed those things with you so you would have no clue what I think about it

so childish. just stick to the topic if you can. I thought we were making a little progress

whatever
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, When Jesus arrive on earth to preach to Israel that their promised kingdom was at hand, yes every Jew must be water baptised to be considered saved

Mark 16:16 made that clear

Of course we know by acts 7 that their leaders refuse to do so, and they killed Stephen
1 we are talking about the OT you said they had to be baptized
2 thank you for once again nothing
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Water baptism is no longer required for anyone since the offer of the Kingdom to Israel has been withdrawn.

The nation is now blinded by God (Romans 11:11). Both Jews and Gentiles are now saved individually thru 1 Cor 15:1-4.

I can see you don't believe in the mystery of the dispensation of grace, that Paul talks about in Ephesians 3:9
You all over the place man
 
May 22, 2020
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I think you are taking this doctrine from the letters that James, Peter and John wrote to Israel, for yourself too.

For the nation Israel, their sins are only blotted out at Jesus's 2nd coming for them.

The backdrop is given by Peter whom the Holy Spirit was using to address Israel in Acts 3

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

....

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The Holy Spirit was announcing to Israel the good news that, even though they have done a wicked act in crucifying their Messiah that was promised to them in the OT, forgiveness was at hand.

All their sins will be blotted out at the times of refreshing, when Jesus comes back to the Mount of Olives for the nation, as promised in the OT.

Once you can understand that, for Israel, they will only be redeemed during the 2nd coming, everything James, Peter and John was writing in their letters will make so much more sense.

Israel's responsibility now is to stay faithful and do works (James 2), endure the coming Tribulation which is the 70th week of Daniel (1 Peter), and love God and their neighbors (1 John).

In this aspect 1 Peter 4 is especially enlightening in teaching us how Israel is to view the 7 year Tribulation

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Vs 18 is very enlightening when I came across it for the first time. According to Peter, there is no such thing as OSAS. Even one who is righteous can scarcely be saved, which is not what Paul would instruct us in the Body of Christ.

So if Peter can tell us that, what James is saying in chapter 2 is really not surprising. There is no need for any of us former gentiles in the Body of Christ to try to force James to agree with Paul. James is referring to Israel who have no guarantee of their salvation until Jesus returns for them.
I take the whole Bible in context. That is what God teaches me. Acts 2;38 is a start...many more.
 
May 22, 2020
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No... Paul was baptized because Jesus commanded it.. the same reason Peter and the other apostles taught and did it, starting at Pentecost. The same reason the church has taught and practiced it for nearly 2000 years.... until "enlightened" folks came along and told us how wrong we all are.

Right..part of the ...."new."......new age religion interpretation of God's word...continues. Recently (someone posted here)...Andy stanley...son of Charles Stanley...says we need not to be controlled by God's commandments because Christ paid for all of our transgressions. Acts 2;38, et al....notwithstanding...re; baptism.
There is more coming.
He plans to write a book for explanation purposes..."..."..his office.

We are reminded of end time prophecy...."in the end times great deceptions will be present...."
"Baptism not required"......baptist, et al.
OSAS
Hyper Grace
Universalism

Anyone know any other ..."new",,,new age religion interpretations to be added to the list?
 
May 22, 2020
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Obviously the moment Paul was saved, thru that blinding light, the mystery had yet to be revealed to him correct?

As far as everyone is present at that time, water baptism was still required.

The revelation of the mystery was only given to Paul later. My view is that it was revealed during the years Paul spent in Arabia (Galatians 1:17)
....is till required.

Remember...God's word does not change.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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I already stated that, according to the OT prophetic timetable, Israel as a nation must repent and accept their Messiah, BEFORE the gentile nations can be reached.

Are you disagreeing with that sequence, as spelt in Luke's version of the great commission?

By the time you reach Acts 28, Paul pronounced the entire nation blinded (vs26-28). Israel never accepted Jesus as their Messiah, even up till now.
Gotta stick with the party line?

I agree that it was FIRST to the Jews, then to Gentiles. Of course

I disagree the entire nation was blinded, as Paul was an israelite himself, and all the other apostles and the 3000 added to the Church on Pentecost. (Thru that pesky water baptism that the OP of this thread isnt a fan of)
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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I Believe that Baptism done properly, guarantees that God will wash all our sins away and Grant the Grace to conform our lives to the pattern of Christ's death.

It initiates life in Christ.

Thanks for asking. Feel free to let me know if I misunderstood the question.
May the Lord continue to bless you.
No you understood it quite well, the only thing I am confused about and maybe I just misunderstood you but you say it guarantees the washing of our sins and grants grace but is that not what the blood of Jesus did? I think most would agree the baptism of the holy spirit is what happens first and then water baptism but are our sins not washed away from receiving the holy spirit?
 
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lenna

Guest
this thread starts to remind me of a bunch of guys sitting on a porch and having a conversation that goes nowhere fast



'yup', one says, 'crops a comin in good. missus and me might git ourselves a new chevy. well a new used chevy har har'

'yup', another one says, 'sure nuff. gotta keep them coons outta there tho'

'what coons?' says the other 'gonna be no coons in my new used chevy'

'why durn it! there yah go agin. always mixin up what I sez. I was talkin bout the crops jest like you'

'why no sir. you wern't talkin bout no crops. you said there was gonna be coons in my chevy. why would you say that?'

'gosh durn it's worse n I thought. you don't understand jest bout nuthin and you mix up what I sez. t'aint worth talkin to yah'

'now you gittin personal by gum. I outta jest ask you ta leave;

'I would leave but this here is my house, gosh durn it and you better go check for coons'
 
Aug 1, 2020
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Acts 19:3
And he said, “Then with what kind of baptism were you baptized?” And they said, “With John’s baptism.”

“Then with what kind of baptism were you baptized?” This sentence is hard to translate without giving the wrong idea, and the words are packed with meaning. The sentence is more literally, “Into what, then, were you baptized,” but the Greek word eis, “into,” (#1519 εἰς), is being used in the “static sense” and here means “in connection with” or “in relation to,” not “into” as if motion was being indicated (cp. R. C. H. Lenski, “The Interpretation of Acts;” also commentary on Romans 6:3). That would make the literal translation the very awkward: “In connection with what, then, were you baptized?”

Paul was not asking, “How were you baptized,” as many versions say, as if he was asking whether or not they were baptized in water. Actually, as Newman and Nida write: “he was asking them what was the meaning or significance of their baptism. And the answer that they give to the question is ‘the baptism of John,’ by which they indicate that the meaning of their baptism was the same as that which John the Baptist had proclaimed” (Newman and Nida, A Translator’s Handbook on the Acts of the Apostles). R. C. H. Lenski adds, “And ‘what’ (neuter gender) shows that Paul had in mind, ‘in connection with what name?” This explains why the disciples answered, literally, “In connection with (eis) John’s baptism,” giving the name of John. For ease of reading we just have, “With John’s baptism.” We might say more fully, “It had to do with John’s baptism.”

The Greek sentence is hard to translate in a way that gives us the correct meaning in English. That is due in part to the difficulty of the sentence construction and that the words are pregnant with meaning, but it is also due to our general misunderstanding of baptism. If we translate the sentence, “Into what then were you baptized,” the automatic answer we give is “water.” If we translate the phrase “How were you baptized,” again, we think “water.” Even if we are a little closer to the Greek meaning and translate, “What kind of baptism did you receive,” we still tend to think the answer to the question is “water.” But the disciples did not answer saying “water;” they understood the question and answered that they were baptized in connection with John’s baptism, which, while the element was water, the baptism was a “baptism of repentance” (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Acts 13:24; 19:4).

John baptized with a “baptism of repentance,” which is a genitive of relation, meaning a baptism related to repentance, specifically a baptism that symbolized repentance. John’s baptism was a symbolic act that portrayed and symbolized in a visible way the invisible cleansing that had occurred in God’s sight when the person repented (cp. John Schoenheit, Baptism: The History and Significance of Christian Baptism). Thus, if we were to paraphrase and expand the meaning of Paul’s sentence, we might say something like: “In connection with what name were you baptized, and what did it mean?” The answer, “In connection with John’s baptism” was enough, because Paul knew that John’s baptism was a baptism that symbolized repentance.

Paul was genuinely shocked when the disciples said they had not heard about holy spirit, because as long before that as the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38), Peter had taught about the coming of holy spirit. But here at Ephesus were disciples who had not heard that the gift of holy spirit had been given. It is possible that they were some of John’s disciples who moved to Ephesus before Pentecost, or perhaps they had been evangelized by one of John’s disciples who left Judea before Pentecost (perhaps after John was killed) and had not heard of the coming of holy spirit (they had almost certainly heard John, or one of John’s disciples, tell that the holy spirit was going to come, after all, the prophets had been saying that for centuries, but they meant they had not heard that it had already come).

This verse shows that in the opening decades of the Christian Church, believing in Christ was associated with “being baptized in holy spirit,” otherwise known as receiving holy spirit. People who genuinely believed in Christ’s death and resurrection were baptized in holy spirit, and the proof of that was that they then manifested the gift of holy spirit, certainly most usually by speaking in tongues, but also by interpretation and prophecy. And that is exactly what we see here in Acts 19. The disciples had confessed their sins in association with being baptized in John’s baptism. But confessing sins does not get a person saved in the Grace Administration
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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The whole nation of Israel was baptised "into Moses" when they went through the Red Sea
how long after they were brought out of Egypt ((vis-à-vis)) saved)) was it before they crossed the Reed Sea ((vis-à-vis baptized)) ?
so we see in the word of God in Exodus that water baptism occurs after Pascha. Salvation precedes passing through the water and their baptism is not excluded even though they have already been redeemed from slavery. ;)


is God good at types & signs or does He get them wrong?
 
Aug 14, 2019
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Why do you think this?

Both Titus 3 and Col 2 state our washing, or as Paul Called it a spiritual circumcision, is performed by the HS. Not by some man in water
I would never suggest that. God responds to our outward act with an internal act of His own. The washing and the Gift of the H.S.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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how long after they were brought out of Egypt ((vis-à-vis)) saved)) was it before they crossed the Reed Sea ((vis-à-vis baptized)) ?
so we see in the word of God in Exodus that water baptism occurs after Pascha. Salvation precedes passing through the water and their baptism is not excluded even though they have already been redeemed from slavery. ;)


is God good at types & signs or does He get them wrong?
I don't know why it says Blain said I didn't say this the user that quoted me did
 
Aug 14, 2019
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No you understood it quite well, the only thing I am confused about and maybe I just misunderstood you but you say it guarantees the washing of our sins and grants grace but is that not what the blood of Jesus did? I think most would agree the baptism of the holy spirit is what happens first and then water baptism but are our sins not washed away from receiving the holy spirit?
it can happen in that order but that isn't how it generally happens. Jesus Baptism is the model. He needed no washing of course. John's water Baptism is united to Christ. Jesus baptized (washed sins away) in the form of His spoken word. Christ received a Baptism from the Father and sends the H.S. That event from John to Pentecost which has several baptizing elements is one Baptism in Christ. The order in which they happened in the Gospels is the order in which the same happens to us.
 
May 22, 2020
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No you understood it quite well, the only thing I am confused about and maybe I just misunderstood you but you say it guarantees the washing of our sins and grants grace but is that not what the blood of Jesus did? I think most would agree the baptism of the holy spirit is what happens first and then water baptism but are our sins not washed away from receiving the holy spirit?

WOW.......are you suggesting one does not have to repent of our sins?