God had a plan in place before the creation of the world to redeem fallen man. Redeeming Adam in the Garden wasn’t the plan.
What does it "REALLY" mean that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?
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God had a plan in place before the creation of the world to redeem fallen man. Redeeming Adam in the Garden wasn’t the plan.
I think all who have been saved, all who are being saved and all who will be saved are saved by the blood of the lamb.
As for whether or not Adam was saved, I leave it to Christ to say.
Remember Mattathias I ask you the following question? Is the angel of the Lord as Genesis 16 who multiplied Hagars descendants the same being who multiplied Abrham's descendants at Genesis 17:1-2? You said, "Maybe" which to me shows your honest enough to admit your not sure. Maybe I can change your mind on that. I say it is the same being/God.
At Genesis 17:1-2 it specifically states, "the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty etc." This cannot be the person of God the Father because even according to Jesus Christ the Father cannot be seen. (John 1:18, John 5:37, John 6:46, 1 Timothy6:6). The reason I know that this is a "physical" appearance is from Genesis 17:22, "And when He/God finished talking with him/Abram, God went up from Abraham." Also at Genesis 21:2, "So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time of which GOD HAD SPOKEN TO HIM."
I will sum up Genesis 18 by saying three men appeared to Abraham. Two of the men were actual angels and the other was the Lord. Genesis 1:1, "Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Abraham offers the three men food. Then a long discussion ensues where God and Abraham have a dialogue about Sodom and Gomorrah and its destruction. Notice Genesis 18:33, "And as soon as He/the Lord had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed; and Abraham returned to his place. At Genesis 19:1 the two angels go on to Sodom and meet up with Lot.
Now comes the good part and the proof I was talking about. It is true, (like it was said above, "he could be considered to be the Lord who sent them, and was to be treated as if he were the the one who sent them.”) This is known as the Jewish Law of Agency. The "Shaliach" principal where a person is known as the agent acting by direction of another, the pricipal. In our case the angel Lord is acting for the principal who is God.
At Genesis 22:1 it says, "that God tested Abraham." At vs10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took th eknife to slay hsi son." Vs11, "But the angel fo the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Vs12, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Skipping to vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son,
vs17, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashort; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. Vs18, And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed becaus you have obeyed My voice."
Now, there are some questions that immediatly pop up? Why does the angel of the Lord call out to Abraham two times from heaven? God Himself called out from heaven at Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven." He also called out from heaven at Mark 1:11, "and a voice came out of the heavens; "Thou are My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased."
What about at Genesis 22:12 where the angel of the Lord says, "and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God." In this case the Lord often speaks in the first person as well as in the third person. The same construction can be found at Job 2:3, "And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? for there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man FEARING GOD, and turning awaay from evil." Or at Numbers 14:28, 1 Samuel 2:30 and others.
So, according to the "Jewish Virtual Library" an agent that represents a principal "CANNOT" swear an oath for the principal. "According to the Tosefta (kid. 4:1), Bet Shammai and Bet Hillel agreed that a person appointed to carry out a specific mandate is DISQUALIFIED from acting as a witness in a case involving such mandate, and the talmudic halakhah was decided accordingly. Moreover, the swearing of an oath or affirmation for another, this act being a personal commitment of conscience.
If you are a witness to a crime you cannot send someone like your Uncle Harry in your place to swear an oath unless he happens to have seen the crime himself. Even if you cannot go to courst yourself the Judge will have someone "depose" you as a witness. Now, here is the final nail in the coffin so to speak. Hebrews 6:13,14,
"For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU, AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU." This proves that the angel of the Lord is God Almighty and not an actual angel. I almost forgot but remember I told you that there is a definition difference between the word "the" and the words, "an/a" The chief grammatical functkion of "an" or "a" is to connote a thing not previously noted or recognized. "The" connotes a thing previously noted or recognized. I'll be happy to address any questions from anybody on these boards.
IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
We are in agreement on this point.
Why are trinitarians who reject the identification of the Son as the angel of the Lord in favor of identifying the angel of the Lord as an angel not persuaded by your explanation?
Great. I’m waiting for you to answer the questions I asked in post #115 and post #116.
At Zechariah 1 you have "an" angel as the rider on the red horse with other angels behind him, (vs8). You also have "the" angel of the Lord as the one speaking to the Lord. That's how I understand it. Can you please identify the actors at Malachi 3:1? Who's who?
And don't ask me these "why" questions about other trinitarians and why some believe this of that. The short answer is, "I don't know the operations of ones mind." So is what I addressed regarding the angel of the Lord "sound" as far as your concerned? Ask me any question you want on this?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Thanks. The question in post #116 was this: The Son speaking or not the Son speaking?
I can’t tell from your response whether you believe the Son is or isn’t speaking in this verse. Please clarify that for me.
So you’ve never had this conversation with them?
No.
I agree in fact Eve is mother of all the living through Christ . But what I was getting at was that Jesus became God in the flesh at His conception in order to shed His Blood for us .. That is one of the reasons why imo God the Father didn't in the Garden . God had to come in the flesh, Immanuel but same one God ..
Yes, the Son is speaking as the angel of the Lord. Since you said, "No" then please Biblically refute what I stated? Listen, your doing me a favor by poking holes in this and that is one way of how I learn. But I assure you, there's not a question you can ask me on this subject that I won't know the answer to, I've heard them all.
As to your "how many times" question, I have no idea and I don't think it matters. Why does it matter to you?
IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
I believe Jesus is the incarnation of God’s logos (see John 1) and associate/equate that event with his begetting/conception in the womb of the virgin (see the birth narratives in Matthew 1 and Luke 1) in order to shed his blood for us.
And He was also son of David born into a normal Jewish family with no particular advantage .. It blows me away to think about it ..
Or I should say ''who refused to take any particular advantage for Himself'' , proven at His temptation in the desert
Thank you. I chose this particular passage for three reasons. I’ll give you two of the reasons at this point and add the third below.
(1) The trinitarian commentary in NET.
”17 sn Note that here the angel of the LORD is clearly distinct from the LORD who rules over all himself.”
https://netbible.org/bible/Zechariah+1
(2) The angel whom Zechariah is speaking with (who is not the angel of the Lord) is addressed in 1:9 with the non-deity Hebrew title, adoni. The title occurs 195 times in scripture, and in every instance is applied to a person who is not God.
Another occurrence of the non-deity title is found in David’s oracle, Psalm 110:1. God speaks prophetically to the Son in this verse: “Yahweh says to my lord (Heb. l’adoni)...“ Since you identify the Son as the angel of the Lord in Zechariah 1:12 (and elsewhere), the non-deity title would be applicable to the angel of the Lord.
It’s at this point that I will share the third reason I selected the passage in Zechariah.
(3) “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son...” (Hebrews 1:1-2 NASB)
God did not speak to the fathers in the Son in the days of the Old Testament. God spoke to us (not the fathers) in the Son “in these last days” - which began with the Son’s preaching and teaching in the days of the New Testament.
I believe there are additional ways to respond to your position but these three will suffice for now.
I thought that perhaps you might list the passages of scripture where you believe the Son spoke (as the angel of the Lord, and not as the angel of the Lord) for us to examine.
I want to know what you think and why you think it.
He is a descendant of David, and is the object of the Davidic Covenant. He was born a king, but didn’t exercise the prerogatives of royalty. (He will.)
Jesus was born and raised a Jew. He believed, as did his fellow Jews: God is the Father, the living God, the only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel, Yahweh.
You cannot refer to Jesus as Lord if you also call Him a liar:
"I and the Father are one." John 10:30
The religious leaders knew exactly what He was referring to:
The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God. John 10:33
This wasn't the only time he claimed deity:
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58
His followers also knew Him to be God:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. Acts 20:28
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter1:1
No matter how many times your beloved Watchtower Society attempts to re-write the scriptures to fit their doctrines, the above truths will remain the same forever.
You would do well to investigate why The Watchtower Society's New World "translation" is so different from every other translation, and why it isn't included in any of the online bible apps.
I used this list of every occurrence as a handout in the classroom for my students. From NASB, but you can refer to any translation. 195 occurrences in 163 verses. Broken down by book.
1. Gen 18:12
2. Gen 23:6
3. Gen 23:11
4.:Gen 23:15
5. / 6. Gen 24:12
7. Gen 24:14
8. Gen 24:18
9. / 10. / 11. Gen 24:27
12. Gen 24:35
13. / 14. Gen 24:36
15. Gen 24:37
16. Gen 24:39
17. Gen 24:42
18. Gen 24:44
19. / 20. Gen 24:48
21. Gen 24:49
22. Gen 24:54
23. Gen 26:56
24. Gen 24:65
25. Gen 31:35
26. Gen 32:4
27. Gen 32:5
28. Gen 32:18
29. Gen 33:8
30. Gen 33:13
31. / 32. Gen. 33:14
33. Gen 33:15
34. Gen 39:8
35. Gen 42:10
36. Gen 43:20
37. Gen 44:5
38. Gen 44:7
39. Gen 44:9
40. / 41. Gen 44:16
42. / 43. Gen 44:18
44. Gen 44:19
45. Gen 44:20
46. Gen 44:22
47. Gen 44:24
48. Gen 44:33
49. / 50. / 51. Gen 47:18
52. Gen 47:25
That’s right.
You must have me confused with someone else. I‘ve never had any connection with the Watchtower Society and disagree with most of their doctrinal positions.
53. Ex 21:5
54. Ex 32:2
55. Num 11:28
56. Num 12:11
57. Num 32:25
58. Num 32:27
59. / 60. Num 36:2
61. Josh 5:14
62. Judg 4:18
63. Judg 6:13
64. Ruth 2:13
65. 1 Sam 1:15
66. / 67. 1 Sam 1:26
68. 1 Sam 22:12
69. 1 Sam 24:6
70. 1 Sam 24:8
71. 1 Sam 24:10
72. 1 Sam 25:24
73. / 74. 1 Sam 25:25
75. / 76. 1 Sam 25:26
77. / 78. 1 Sam 25:27
79. / 80. 1 Sam 25:28
81. 1 Sam 25:29
82. 1 Sam 25:30
83. / 84. / 85. 1 Sam 25:31
86. 1 Sam 25:41
87. 1 Sam 26:17
88. 1 Sam 26:18
89. 1 Sam 26:19
90. 1 Sam 29:8
91. 1 Sam 30:13
92. 1 Sam 30:15
"Jesus was born and raised a Jew. He believed, as did his fellow Jews: God is the Father, the living God, the only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel, Yahweh. " (Posted by Matthathias, quotation did not work)
Is this meant to be A DENIAL of the Deity of Christ? Well Exodus chapter 3 fully refutes you, since Jesus is also the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is I AM THAT I AM or simply I AM (YHWH). So now take careful note of the dialogue between Jesus (the pre-incarnate Christ called "the Angel of the LORD" in the OT), and Moses. We see below that Jesus is called not only the Angel of the Lord, but YHWH (the LORD), and God, as well as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
EXODUS 3: JESUS IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB
1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the LORD [YHWH] saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And He [God] said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover He said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;
8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.
10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.
11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
This does not mean that all these terms do not apply to the Father also, since they do. However, Jesus said that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him, so there is really no conflict or confusion. The Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit are all within the Godhead, and that is God -- the true and living God, the LORD God Almighty.
Now we will wait and see if you repent of your heresy (or perhaps confusion) or double down and continue to promote it (more than likely).
Is this meant to be A DENIAL of the Deity of Christ? Well Exodus chapter 3 fully refutes you, since Jesus is also the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is I AM THAT I AM or simply I AM (YHWH). So now take careful note of the dialogue between Jesus (the pre-incarnate Christ called "the Angel of the LORD" in the OT), and Moses. We see below that Jesus is called not only the Angel of the Lord, but YHWH (the LORD), and God, as well as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
EXODUS 3: JESUS IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB
1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the LORD [YHWH] saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And He [God] said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover He said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;
8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.
10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.
11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
This does not mean that all these terms do not apply to the Father also, since they do. However, Jesus said that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him, so there is really no conflict or confusion. The Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit are all within the Godhead, and that is God -- the true and living God, the LORD God Almighty.
Now we will wait and see if you repent of your heresy (or perhaps confusion) or double down and continue to promote it (more than likely).