What does it "REALLY" mean that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

93. 2 Sam 1:10
94. 2 Sam 3:21
95. 2 Sam 4:8
96. 2 Sam 9:11
97. / 98. 2 Sam 11:11
99. 2 Sam 13:32
100. 2 Sam 13:33
101. 2 Sam 14:9
102. 2 Sam 14:12
103. 2 Sam 14:15
104. / 105. 2 Sam 14:17
106. 2 Sam 14:18
107. / 108. 2 Sam 14:19
109. 2 Sam 14:20
110. 2 Sam 14:22
111. 2 Sam 15:15
112. / 113. 2 Sam 15:21
114. 2 Sam 16:4
115. 2 Sam 16:9
116. 2 Sam 18:28
117. 2 Sam 18:31
118. 2 Sam 18:32
119. /120. 2 Sam 19:19
121. 2 Sam 19:20
122. 2 Sam 19:26
123. / 124. 2 Sam 19:27
125. 2 Sam 19:28
126. 2 Sam 19:30
127. 2 Sam 19:35
128. 2 Sam 19:37
129. / 130 2 Sam 24:3
131. 2 Sam 24:21
132. 2 Sam 24:22

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

Mattathias said:

133. / 134. 1 Ki 1:2
135. 1 Ki 1:13
136. 1 Ki 1:17
137. 1 Ki 1:18
138. / 139. 1 Ki 1:20
140. 1 Ki 1:21
141. 1 Ki 1:24
142. / 143. 1 Ki 1:27
144. 1 Ki 1:31
145. 1 Ki 1:36
146. / 147. 1 Ki 1:37
148. 1 Ki 2:38
149. 1 Ki 3:17
150. 1 Ki 3:26
151. 1 Ki 18:7
152. 1 Ki 18:10
153. 1 Ki 18:13
154. 1 Ki 20:4
155. 1 Ki 20:9

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

Mattathias said:

156. 2 Ki 2:19
157. 2 Ki 4:16
158. 2 Ki 4:28
159. 2 Ki 5:3
160. 2 Ki 5:18
161. 2 Ki 5:20
162. 2 Ki 5:22
163. 2 Ki 6:5
164. 2 Ki 6:12
165. 2 Ki 6:15
166. 2 Ki 6:26
167. 2 Ki 8:5
168. 2 Ki 8:12
169. 2 Ki 10:9
170. 2 Ki 18:23
171. 2 Ki 18:24
172. 2 Ki 18:27

173. / 174. / 175. 1 Chron 21:3
176. 1 Chron 21:23

177. 2 Chron 2:14
178. 2 Chron 2:15

179. Ps 110:1

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

Mattathias said:

180. Is 36:8
181. Is. 36:9
182. Is. 36:12

183. Jer 37:20
184. Jer 38:9

185. Dan 1:10
186. Dan 10:16
187. / 188. Dan 10:17
189. Dan 10:19
190. Dan 12:8

191. Zech 1:9
192. Zech 4:4
193. Zech 4:5
194. Zech 4:13
195. Zech 6:4

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

It is a comment about Jewish monotheism; about who Jews believe their God is.

bojack · Aug 8, 2020

Mattathias said:

The Jews sought to stone Jesus to death for making Himself equal to God .. Jesus could have easily denied it if it weren't true , but He couldn't and didn't deny it .. God manifest in the flesh for the very purpose to provide His own Blood to save us from all sin back to Adam and forward, those who would .. God the Father is Spirit and could not atone for our sins according to His blood law and Truth unless He manifested in the flesh to dwell with us within natural creation in the flesh ... And that's exactly what He did in the frailty of flesh, He died in the flesh and Spirit while on the cross for our sin, He took on our sins and associated with us in ours .. Same one God in the flesh .. Jesus is God .. He come to show us, not just tell us, how to live and act toward both man and God and then willingly tasted death and hell for us according to scripture, a price He willingly paid for our redemption ......

I had a vision/dream of being out of the presence of God about 30 yrs ago exactly one day after having a vision/dream of being in heaven in the presence of God .. Hell is being out of the presence of God . It was the most lost and hopeless, horrible terror I've never even imagined times infinity .. If Jesus tasted that death for me willingly took my sin to defeat death and hell for my salvation then He is my God, same one God come in the flesh for me . After that revelation I witnessed Jesus to everybody, every day, everywhere for about two yrs .. I would not want my worst enemy to go to hell, ever .. People do not know the horror of hell because of flesh self gratification, the sin substitute for God in this life , plus the presence of God is currently in all creation . But at the great day of judgment things will change .. If people knew, there would be no non-Christians, NONE ..

Oh, and the vision of being in the presence of God the day before . I was simply in the close presence of God on my hands and knees bowed low in what I think was a great temple on the floor, I never looked up or cared to look to see . I could feel the radiant waves of comfort and love penetrating even flowing through my whole body and absolutely satisfied . I remember thinking ''I could stay right here for 10,000 yrs and not move a muscle'' .. I woke up and the Holy Spirit remained on me all that day .. I look back and think ''if God had not give me that dream being in His direct presence first I wouldn't have survived the horror of the vision the next night being gradually led out of His presence'' .. I still struggled a long time to get over it ..

bojack · Aug 8, 2020

The Father had to reject our sin and the light of the world went out because He willingly took our sin .. Hanged/cursed on a tree suspended between heaven and Earth .. We who are in Him receive His grace to endure .. Did Jesus or is He God

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

bojack said:

The Jews sought to stone Jesus to death for making Himself equal to God .. Jesus could have easily denied it if it weren't true , but He couldn't and didn't deny it .. God manifest in the flesh for the very purpose to provide His own Blood to save us from all sin back to Adam and forward, those who would .. God the Father is Spirit and could not atone for our sins according to His blood law and Truth unless He manifested in the flesh to dwell with us within natural creation in the flesh ... And that's exactly what He did in the frailty of flesh, He died in the flesh and Spirit while on the cross for our sin, He took on our sins and associated with us in ours .. Same one God in the flesh .. Jesus is God .. He come to show us, not just tell us, how to live and act toward both man and God and then willingly tasted death and hell for us according to scripture, a price He willingly paid for our redemption ......

I had a vision/dream of being out of the presence of God about 30 yrs ago exactly one day after having a vision/dream of being in heaven in the presence of God .. Hell is being out of the presence of God . It was the most lost and hopeless, horrible terror I've never even imagined times infinity .. If Jesus tasted that death for me willingly took my sin to defeat death and hell for my salvation then He is my God, same one God come in the flesh for me . After that revelation I witnessed Jesus to everybody, every day, everywhere for about two yrs .. I would not want my worst enemy to go to hell, ever .. People do not know the horror of hell because of flesh self gratification, the sin substitute for God in this life , plus the presence of God is currently in all creation . But at the great day of judgment things will change .. If people knew, there would be no non-Christians, NONE ..

Oh, and the vision of being in the presence of God the day before . I was simply in the close presence of God on my hands and knees bowed low in what I think was a great temple on the floor, I never looked up or cared to look to see . I could feel the radiant waves of comfort and love penetrating even flowing through my whole body and absolutely satisfied . I remember thinking ''I could stay right here for 10,000 yrs and not move a muscle'' .. I woke up and the Holy Spirit remained on me all that day .. I look back and think ''if God had not give me that dream being in His direct presence first I wouldn't have survived the horror of the vision the next night being gradually led out of His presence'' .. I still struggled a long time to get over it ..

The Messiah is functionally equal with God. He is God’s vice regent. Unbelieving Jews thought Jesus was putting himself in that position. He wasn’t. God put him in that position.

Benadam · Aug 8, 2020

Adam is the generator of our kind. Adam is not the generator if your father is God. The Father is eternally generating His Son. The Father knows Himself in His Son. Knowledge and generation. Adam knew his wife Eve and........the person the Father eternally generates was received in a virgin.

bluto · Aug 8, 2020

Mattathias said:

Come on Mattathias, your argument defies simple common sense and not to mention basic "logic." You said this: "2) The angel whom Zechariah is speaking with (who is not the angel of the Lord) is addressed in 1:9 with the non-deity Hebrew title, adoni. The title occurs 195 times in scripture, and in every instance is applied to a person who is not God."

You then proceed to itemize 195 verses that use the word "lord" which means because that word is used the angel of the Lord can't be God? Really! If we were to use this line of reasoning how come (and this is just one example) you did not quote Genesis 18:3? Abraham said, "My lord, if now I have found favor in your sight, please do not pass your servant by."

The greeting by Abraham at Genesis 18:3 would be the same as saying, "Sir, if now I have found favor etc. But what makes your argument even worse for you is that you are not considering the context. Genesis 18:1 clearly and without any excuses says, "Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre etc. Please identify at Genesis 18:13 who the Lord is that asked Abraham why did Sarah laugh?

And while you at it, please identify who the Lord is at Genesis 17:17:1,2 that said, "the Lord APPEARED to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will greatly multiply you exceedingly." Notice the word "Lord" is also identified as "God" in the verses.

You also ask me to give you examples that show the angel of the Lord is deity. Genesis 16:7-14, Genesis 22:11-18, Exodus 3:2-6, Judges 2:1-3, Judges 6:11-23 and a number of others. Now, at Genesis 16:7 which is the first appearance of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord told Hagar that he would multiply her descendants (vs10). An angel cannot multiply someone descendants, only God can do it just like at Genesis 17:2 clearly states.

Since you provided 195 "thesis" statements like Martin Luther, why did Hagar say at Genesis 16:13 say, "Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, Thou are a God who sees; for she said, have I even remained alive here AFTER SEEING HIM?" How did Hagar know that it was the Lord God speaking to her?

The same can be said at Judges 13;21, "Now the angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah or his wife, "Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the Lord." vs22, "So Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, for we have SEEN GOD." Also, if you go back to Judges 13:17 Manoah said, "What is your name so that when your words come to pass we many honor you?" Vs18, But the angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is "wonderful?"

Here's the bottom line as to why I know that the angel of the Lord is God Almighty. Not only (as I said an angel cannot swear an oath on behalf of God Himself which is proof enough) but "REALITY PROVES THAT WHAT THE ANGEL OF THE LORD SAID CAME TO PASS, OR REALITY PROVES THAT GOD IS RIGHT.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

Mattathias said:

In post #154 I backdoored the application of the non-deity Hebrew title onto the angel of the Lord, using Psalm 110:1 - no follower of Jesus I’ve ever met has rejected identifying the Son as the person whom Yahweh is addressing as David’s lord (Heb. adoni, pronounced adonee) in that passage.

In this post I’m going to go through the front door with an example of someone speaking directly to the angel of the Lord - whom you believe is the Son.

“The angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, ‘The LORD is with you, O valiant warrior.’ Then Gideon said to him, ‘O my lord, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us?...’

(Judges 6:12-13 NASB)

Here is a link to an interlineal of Judges 6:13. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/judges/6-13.htm

Are you able to read Hebrew? If you are, you will instantly recognize that the angel of the Lord is addressed with the non-deity title “adoni.” The angel of the Lord is an angel, not the deity. If we’re unable to read the verse in Hebrew, we can still see this is true in the English translation. The translators have correctly rendered the Hebrew in English with the title “lord” which distinguishes the angel from God.

If Gideon had believed he was addressing God himself rather than the representative of God, then the Hebrew word Gideon would have used is adonai, the deity title, not adoni, the non-deity title.

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

As I‘ve documented, there are 195 occurrences of the non-deity title adoni in the Old Testament. NASB translated it correctly 194 times. In one single instance, the translators allowed their bias to trump what is actually written in the Hebrew text.

Approximately 20 years ago, I wrote a letter to the Lockman Foundation pointing this out. I still have their response somewhere in my files. They acknowledged the technical point I made was correct (they had no alternative) and committed to correcting the text in future editions to reflect what the Hebrew actually says (in that they exhibited integrity).

They could have, but didn’t, leave it at that. They felt compelled to add that the correction would not in any way change their personal belief (in that they demonstrated commitment).

Which text did they mistranslate? A critical one. In fact, the critical one.

bluto · Aug 8, 2020

Mattathias said:

You just "shot" yourself in the foot and you don't even know it for two reasons. You said directly above, "If Gideon had believed he was addressing God himself rather than the representative of God, then the Hebrew word Gideon would have used is adonai, the deity title, not adoni, the non-deity title.[/QUOTE]"

That's like saying, "No where in the book of Acts does one person identify Jesus as God, therefore He can't be God." This is in logic what is called, "an argument from silence." No one can present proof of a negative assertion just like you did. Never mind the fact that Jesus Christ is clearly identifed as God by others in the Bible, like at John 20:28.

That's number one. Number two deals with the "context" of Judges 6:12-13 which you failed to read. Starting at Judges 6:19 Gideon made two offerings and guess who they were for? Vs19, "Gideon went in and prepared a kid and unleavened bread etc. Vs20, "And the angel of God sid to him, "Take the meat and unleavened bread and lay them on this rock. Vs21, "Then the angel of the Lord put out the end of his staff and touched the meat and bread and fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the meat and the bread. Then the angel of the Lord vanished from his sight."

So what does Gideon say Mattsthias? Judges 6:22, "When Gideon sw that he was the angel of the Lord; he said, "Alas, O LOrd God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face." Vs23, "And the Lorde said to him, "Peace to you, do not fear; you shall not die." Vs24, "Then Gideon built an altar there to the Lord and named it, "The Lord is peace. To this day it is still in Opherah of the Abiezrites."

So what did I tell you? "Reality proves God is right." Secondly, do you really think that God would allow, (if the angel of the Lord were a real angel) allow Gideon to make offerings to an/a angel?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

bluto said:

You just "shot" yourself in the foot and you don't even know it for two reasons. You said directly above, "If Gideon had believed he was addressing God himself rather than the representative of God, then the Hebrew word Gideon would have used is adonai, the deity title, not adoni, the non-deity title.

That's like saying, "No where in the book of Acts does one person identify Jesus as God, therefore He can't be God." This is in logic what is called, "an argument from silence." No one can present proof of a negative assertion just like you did. Never mind the fact that Jesus Christ is clearly identifed as God by others in the Bible, like at John 20:28.

That's number one. Number two deals with the "context" of Judges 6:12-13 which you failed to read. Starting at Judges 6:19 Gideon made two offerings and guess who they were for? Vs19, "Gideon went in and prepared a kid and unleavened bread etc. Vs20, "And the angel of God sid to him, "Take the meat and unleavened bread and lay them on this rock. Vs21, "Then the angel of the Lord put out the end of his staff and touched the meat and bread and fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the meat and the bread. Then the angel of the Lord vanished from his sight."

So what does Gideon say Mattsthias? Judges 6:22, "When Gideon sw that he was the angel of the Lord; he said, "Alas, O LOrd God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face." Vs23, "And the Lorde said to him, "Peace to you, do not fear; you shall not die." Vs24, "Then Gideon built an altar there to the Lord and named it, "The Lord is peace. To this day it is still in Opherah of the Abiezrites."

So what did I tell you? "Reality proves God is right." Secondly, do you really think that God would allow, (if the angel of the Lord were a real angel) allow Gideon to make offerings to an/a angel?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

Like the translators of NASB, your commitment to a particular theology has trumped what the Hebrew text actually says.

The angel of the Lord is the non-deity agent/representative/shaliach of the deity.

posthuman · Aug 8, 2020

it is really quite extraordinary that people who devote so much time & effort into denying the divinity of Jesus Christ call themselves 'christians'

i suppose truly a person does the work of their father -- spreading darkness while masquerading as a messenger of light

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

Mattathias said:

While others “crusade” for their gods, there is none other worthy of “crusade” for us Christians than this one.

posthuman · Aug 8, 2020

Mattathias said:

Manoah knew that He was The Angel of the Lord, so Manoah said to his wife,
“We will surely die, for we have seen God.”
(Judges 13:21-22)

posthuman · Aug 8, 2020

posthuman said:

Gideon had exactly the same reaction.
no one in scripture anywhere thinks they will die because they have seen an angel.

Mattathias · Aug 8, 2020

posthuman said:

I see God in the angel of the Lord. I hear God in the angel of the Lord. I believe the author of Hebrews when he says that God did not speak in his Son until these last days.

The angel of the Lord isn’t the Son. The angel of the Lord is, as so many trinitarian scholars and theologians have recognized and acknowledged, an angel.

bluto · Aug 8, 2020

Mattathias said:

Listen, anybody can state or claim a position, the point is that you have to "prove" your position. Now the best you have is to "lump" me in with the translators of the NASB. I'm not committed to them, I'm committed to Jesus Christ and His word. You have yet to address any of my "scriptual" arguments proving the angel of the Lord to be the Lord God Almighty.

Why does it escape your notice that Jesus Christ is the one and only physical manifestation of His Father? Jesus said to Philip at John 14:9, "he that has seen me has seen the Father." This "DOES NOT MEAN" Jesus is God the Father. It means that the Father has no separate manifestion from the Son.

The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father. What is known of the Father is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the essence of the Father. Just read John 1:1,18; John 10:30; John 12:45; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3. Oh yea, and speaking of Hebrews 1 which you brought up for me to explain I will address it now.

Hebrews 1:1 is a typical Unitarian argument brought up by the likes of Anthony Buzzard and others that Jesus as the Son of God did not appear in the OT because vs2 says, "in these last days has spoken to us in His Son." God spoke to the Fathers and prophets in many ways and portions, in other word God spoke in two phases one before the actual coming or incarnation into the world and one through the Son's coming at His actual incarnation.

The point is that God wants us to understand that His latest communication is greater and better than all those portions and ways in the OT. This does not preclude the Son from appearing in the OT. If you notice the Son/angel of the Lord in the OT acted as a precurisor/mediator for the Jews/the nation of Israel. The Son appearing or incarnating as a permanent human being makes good on all the promises of God in the OT which are fulfilled in the NT.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

What does it "REALLY" mean that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

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