What does it "REALLY" mean that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

[fredoheaven]

No.



Who is also his God and my God.



God’s God addresses him as God. Can you make sense out of that with your theology, fred?



No one is better than the one true God.

God's God is technically incorrect, as far as the Bible is concerned. What I said is God the Father in reference to the 1st person of the Godhead and he speaks to his Son. Either you take it as true or not and there is no middle ground. The true God the Father cannot make no mistake, so what he said is true, ikewise the scripture saying Jesus Christ as the true God as well.

 

[Mattathias]

Your "rang?" The JW's do indeed believe that Jesus, who is also Michael the arc angel is the angel of the Lord. The Jw's sayh so in the following article. Just read the second to last paragraph here. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004625#h=31

Thank you. I hope Nehemiah will retract his false accusation. For his sake, not mine.

And for you Mattathias, the preincarnate Jesus Christ is "THE" angel of the Lord.

That’s your position. It’s also the position of other (but not all) trinitarians. It’s even the position of the JW’s.

I gave complet and total proof that angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God, period.

I don’t disagree with that. In fact, I say the same thing.

You never refuted the Biblical evidence…

You aren’t speaking to an atheist. You’re speaking to a Christian minister. An atheist might believe Biblical evidence is refutable, I don’t.

…you ignored it and kept changing the subject.

(1) I never ignore Biblical evidence.
(2) I’m addressing several topics with several people in this thread.

And btw, as a side note, angels can swear oaths on their own. Just read Revelation 10:6. Guess who the angel swore by Mattathias? Read it for yourself.

He swore by God. Have you ever wondered why the angel swore an oath when Jesus said not to?

In summary, give me one good Biblical reason why Jesus can't be the angel of the Lord? I know, it's your turn to bring up Hebrews 1 where you think it means that the Son did not appear in the OT.

The Son is prophesied about in the OT and spoken to in the OT. God spoke in many persons in the OT, contrasted with God speaking in his Son “in these last days”.

You have a different understanding than I do about this passage in particular, and many passages in general. I wouldn’t insult your intelligence by saying “You never refuted the Biblical evidence” nor would I say in the meandering conversations which you’ve engaged in with others in this thread that you are “ignoring it and changing the subject”.

The Bible teaches the Father appointed the Son as the heir of all things, and the Son whom He created all things…

The Son is the heir because he is the seed of Abraham. The Son didn’t create all things - even Justin Martyr was able to see that when he read scripture. The Father created all things through the Son, not by the Son.

…and that means that the Son was existing with His Father even before creation because He's God.

It doesn’t mean that in Jewish monotheism.

Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Yes. “God“ is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, etc. He is Yahweh - the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Both verses start out with the same three words, "In the beginning." Yet the main thought in Genesis 1:1 is on WHAT HAPPENED IN THE BEGINNING, AND IN jOHN 1:1 the emphasis is on WHO EXISTED in the beginning.

John 1:1 is an echo of Genesis 1:1. There is no need for John to emphasize who existed in the beginning. Every Jew reading his Gospel already knew beyond a shadow of a doubt who existed before creation. The God who created the heavens and the earth by his creative word. The Father. Yahweh alone. By himself.

At Exodus 3:2 you have the angel of the Lord appearing to Moses in the midst of the burning bush. At vs4, "When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, GOD called to him from the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses!" Here I am." This is what is called a relational context. God and the Messenger were one and the same.

They weren’t “one and the same”. The angel was a representative of God. The angel was God’s shaliach. Much later, Jesus would also be God’s shaliach.

It's like how I might say, "Bluto went to hear Martin Luther King speak and turned around to look at the Doctor." You would't say Martin Luther King and the Doctor were two differenct people. Only two different identifications of the same person.

That’s right. Martin Luther King was not representing Martin Luther King. He is one person.

Had you attended an event where it was said the speaker came in the name of Martin Luther King you would have seen and heard someone who wasn’t himself Martin Luther King. You would have seen someone who represented him.

And notice Exodus 3:6 (Which is all the rage because you bring it up enough times.)

I don’t remember bringing up Exodus 3:6 at all in our conversations. Not in this thread. Not even on this web site.

"I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And then Moses hid his face, (why?) because he was afraid TO LOOK AT GOD."

If I had been with Moses, I would have done the same.

Btw, I don't seem to recall Exodus 3:2 being on your list of 195 references that refer to the Lord, why?

The list refers to many people, including but not limited to the Messiah. Exodus 3:2 doesn’t appear on the list because adoni does not occur in that verse.

 

[Mattathias]

God's God is technically incorrect, as far as the Bible is concerned.

God himself, the God [and Father] of Jesus Christ, called his Son (Jesus of Nazareth, whom you believe is God) “God“ (Heb. elohim; Gk. theos). The God of God called him God.

Here is what I see in this passage: The God [and Father] of Jesus Christ, called his Son (Jesus of Nazareth, a human person, the Christ) “God” (Heb. elohim; Gk. theos).

What I said is God the Father in reference to the 1st person of the Godhead and he speaks to his Son. Either you take it as true or not and there is no middle ground.

I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.

The true God the Father cannot make no mistake, so what he said is true…

That’s absolutely right. If we don’t believe that then we might as well close our Bibles, throw them in the trash and talk about sweet Aunt Martha’s delicious cornbread.

… ikewise the scripture saying Jesus Christ as the true God as well.

I harmonize 1 John 5:20 with what the Christ said. What you said about his God and Father, I say also about him.

 

[EternalFire]

No. John is not confused, your substitution to what he said is confusing...

So you believe as @Nehemiah6 posted? According to him, God is the Father in one part of the sentence, and later in the same sentence God is the Son.

"In the beginning [eternity past] was the Word, and the Word [Christ] was with God [the Father], and the Word was God [the Son]. (John 1:1)"

 

[fredoheaven]

God himself, the God [and Father] of Jesus Christ, called his Son (Jesus of Nazareth, whom you believe is God) “God“ (Heb. elohim; Gk. theos). The God of God called him God.

Here is what I see in this passage: The God [and Father] of Jesus Christ, called his Son (Jesus of Nazareth, a human person, the Christ) “God” (Heb. elohim; Gk. theos).



I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.



That’s absolutely right. If we don’t believe that then we might as well close our Bibles, throw them in the trash and talk about sweet Aunt Martha’s delicious cornbread.



I harmonize 1 John 5:20 with what the Christ said. What you said about his God and Father, I say also about him.

Technically, I don't hold your God of God idea man. I hold what the scripture saith. Jesus is both the Son of God (diety) and the Son of Man (human).

 

[fredoheaven]

So you believe as @Nehemiah6 posted? According to him, God is the Father in one part of the sentence, and later in the same sentence God is the Son.

"In the beginning [eternity past] was the Word, and the Word [Christ] was with God [the Father], and the Word was God [the Son]. (John 1:1)"

What do you think of the verse? Let me know. Thanks

 

[Mattathias]

Technically, I don't hold your God of God idea man.

If you believe Jesus is God and that he also has a God...

I hold what the scripture saith. Jesus is both the Son of God (diety) and the Son of Man (human).

I’ll be posting shortly on both titles.

 

[EternalFire]

What do you think of the verse? Let me know. Thanks

I believe exactly what Jesus and John believed:

One of the scribes came and heard them debating, and recognizing that he had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” The scribe said to Him, “You are right, Teacher; You have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him; and to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as himself, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God” (Mark 12:28-34).

 

[fredoheaven]

If you believe Jesus is God and that he also has a God...



I’ll be posting shortly on both titles.

"If" that is what you said, I believe Jesus is God-man.

 

[fredoheaven]

I believe exactly what Jesus and John believed:

One of the scribes came and heard them debating, and recognizing that he had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” The scribe said to Him, “You are right, Teacher; You have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him; and to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as himself, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God” (Mark 12:28-34).

So what do you believe exactly? Thanks

 

[DesertWanderer]

I’m explaining scripture as viewed through the lens of Jewish monotheism

Unfortunately, Jewish monotheism will not get you into heaven, my friend.

Take a closer look at the New Covenant God has for us as written in the New Testament and hopefully, you will decide to follow Jesus, not merely as a man, but as the second person of God.

Only when you decide to give up the right to understand God as much He understands himself will you be able to humble yourself enough to take up your cross and follow Jesus.

I've done it and I have to tell you it is amazing to truly be under the power of the Holy Spirit, the third person of God.

I don't say all this because I think I am better than you, I have decided to follow Christ because, on my own, I am really, really bad.

Because Jesus is my God, Lord, and Savior, I now have the right to speak directly to the Father in the name of Jesus under the power of the Holy Spirit.

The best thing is, I don't have to obsess about any one particular doctrine such as predestination, pretribulation, or the trinity.

All I have to do is accept the free gift of salvation and believe that Jesus came to the earth fully God, fully man. He died on the cross to take the penalty for my wretched sins, past present and future.

He rose from the dead three days later to show his glory as God the Messiah. He sits at the right hand of the Father, not because He is subordinate, but because He is equal.

He sent the third person of God, the Holy Spirit, to teach and guide those who believe and convict those who don't.

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom. 10: 9-10

 

[Mattathias]

Unfortunately, Jewish monotheism will not get you into heaven, my friend.

Take a closer look at the New Covenant God has for us as written in the New Testament and hopefully, you will decide to follow Jesus, not merely as a man, but as the second person of God.

Only when you decide to give up the right to understand God as much He understands himself will you be able to humble yourself enough to take up your cross and follow Jesus.

I've done it and I have to tell you it is amazing to truly be under the power of the Holy Spirit, the third person of God.

I don't say all this because I think I am better than you, I have decided to follow Christ because, on my own, I am really, really bad.

Because Jesus is my God, Lord, and Savior, I now have the right to speak directly to the Father in the name of Jesus under the power of the Holy Spirit.

The best thing is, I don't have to obsess about any one particular doctrine such as predestination, pretribulation, or the trinity.

All I have to do is accept the free gift of salvation and believe that Jesus came to the earth fully God, fully man. He died on the cross to take the penalty for my wretched sins, past present and future.

He rose from the dead three days later to show his glory as God the Messiah. He sits at the right hand of the Father, not because He is subordinate, but because He is equal.

He sent the third person of God, the Holy Spirit, to teach and guide those who believe and convict those who don't.

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom. 10: 9-10

Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah and Son of the living God, is himself a Jewish monotheist. Following his resurrection from the dead by his God, he ascended to his God. He is presently seated at the right hand of his God on his God’s throne in heaven. He will one day return and sit on David’s throne in Jerusalem. He is the seed of Abraham. All who belong to Messiah are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise.

Jesus is Lord. His God and Father is the one true God.

 

[Mattathias]

"If" that is what you said, I believe Jesus is God-man.

That’s not what I said.

 

[Angela53510]

I’d like to respond to the OP by establishing the historical orthodox trinitarian belief of the two natures of Jesus, quoting from two trinitarian sources. I may later introduce additional quotes from trinitarian sources in my defense of trinitarianism.

“The anhypostasia, impersonality, or, to speak more accurately, the enhypostasia, of the human nature of Christ - This is a difficult point, but a necessary link in the orthodox doctrine of the one God-Man; for otherwise we must have two persons in Christ, and, after the incarnation, a fourth person, and that a human, in the divine Trinity.“

(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church)

”The orthodox doctrine of the incarnation promulgated at the Council of Chalcedon is emphatic that in the incarnate Christ there is one and only one, undivided person who has two distinct natures, one human and one divine. That one person is the second person of the Trinity, the Son, and is therefore divine. He is not a human person... There is only one person who is Christ, and that person is divine. Thus, there is no human person named ‘Jesus of Nazareth.’ Jesus is a divine person, and medieval theologians were careful never to refer to Jesus as a human person.”

(William Lane Craig, “Is Worship of Jesus Idolatry?”)

https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2015/is-worship-of-jesus-idolatry

There is no human person named ‘Jesus of Nazareth.’”

Your concluding statement that there is no human person named Jesus of Nazareth is a lie from the devil!

"When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” Mark 10:27

"Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know." Acts 2:22

I count 20 times where Jesus of Nazareth is in the Bible. Please notice in Acts 2:22, it even says Jesus of Nazareth was a MAN!

This error of trying to make Jesus only divine and not Human is an ancient heresy called docetism, which is the exact opposite of Arianism, where Jesus is only human, not divine.

The Trinity consists of three hypostases in one being or ousia.

"Hypostasis (Greek: ὑπόστασις, hypóstasis) is the underlying state or underlying substance and is the fundamental reality that supports all else."

"It was mainly under the influence of the Cappadocian Fathers that the terminology was clarified and standardized so that the formula "three hypostases in one ousia" came to be accepted as an epitome of the orthodoxdoctrine of the Trinity."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostasis_(philosophy_and_religion)

God came to earth as a human, was born of the Virgin Mary, lived around 33 years, spent 3 years preaching the gospel, healing the sick. Then died on the cross taking our punishment. Only a human being could do that.

Your scholars are wrong. I'm on my second year of my PhD in theology, studying the nature of the Trinity, and I know I could quote you 20 or 30 scholars who would disagree with this ridiculous statement. Jesus is not 2 persons, but has two natures! WWI

Read the Bible and you will see Jesus of Nazareth was most certainly human and divine. A good book to read, which explains who Jesus is, including the incarnation, when Jesus was born as a human, is "Knowing God" By JI Packer.
Jesus has two natured, but is one hypostasis. God and yet man!

 

[Bingo]

 

[Mattathias]

Your concluding statement that there is no human person named Jesus of Nazareth is a lie from the devil!

It isn’t my belief. I reject it. I affirm that there is a human person named Jesus of Nazareth.

I count 20 times where Jesus of Nazareth is in the Bible. Please notice in Acts 2:22, it even says Jesus of Nazareth was a MAN!

Of course.

This error of trying to make Jesus only divine and not Human is an ancient heresy called docetism...

Dr. Craig is a trinitarian. He affirms the Council of Chalcedon. So do all of the other trinitarian scholars I quoted.

... which is the exact opposite of Arianism, where Jesus is only human, not divine.

It should go without saying that a trinitarian isn’t an Arian. Since I’m no longer a trinitarian, I must announce whether I support Arianism or oppose it. I oppose it.

The Trinity consists of three hypostases in one being or ousia.

"Hypostasis (Greek: ὑπόστασις, hypóstasis) is the underlying state or underlying substance and is the fundamental reality that supports all else."

"It was mainly under the influence of the Cappadocian Fathers that the terminology was clarified and standardized so that the formula "three hypostases in one ousia" came to be accepted as an epitome of the orthodoxdoctrine of the Trinity."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostasis_(philosophy_and_religion)

That is what Dr. Craig believes.

Your scholars are wrong.

They aren’t my scholars. They are trinitarian scholars.

I'm on my second year of my PhD in theology, studying the nature of the Trinity, and I know I could quote you 20 or 30 scholars who would disagree with this ridiculous statement.

I would appreciate it if you would take the time to post a few of them.

Jesus is not 2 persons, but has two natures!

That’s what Dr. Craig, as well as all of the other trinitarian scholars I quoted, believe.

 

[Angela53510]

I’ve actually said very little so far in this thread, so I’m not sure how you reached that conclusion.



Though not stated in the OP, this thread was started by bluto so that he and I could continue a discussion that sprang up in another thread. That discussion began with me asking him, “Are you aware that trinitarianism also teaches us that Jesus is not a human person?” (See post #42, “God born as man - any reference in old testament” thread.)



There’s no need to use the word “fully” in the description of Jesus, unless scripture is viewed through the lens of trinitarianism.

Jesus was a human person. Jesus is a human person.

There is a human person [a Jew, the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth] sitting at the right hand of God in heaven.



That’s what trinitarianism teaches us.



That’s what trinitarianism teaches us.



That’s what trinitarianism teaches us.



“that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself.” (Col. 2:2 NASB)

This is Paul - the same Paul who wrote, “For us [Christians] there is but one God, the Father”. A true knowledge of the Father’s mystery, which is, summed up in the Messiah.

First, kindly post the book, chapter and verse where your Bible quotes come from. It is sloppy exegetics to casually throw out, out of context verses, and not even tell people where they are found.

Paul was not talking about the Trinity in your quote. Looking back, he was explaining how there are no gods, only one God.

"So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods,whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." 1 Cor 8:4-6

Paul most certainly believed Jesus was God as well as human, and so he is talking historical monotheism in this passage, as opposed to polytheism.

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen." Romans 9:5

"Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory." 1 Tim 3:16

Both these verses clearly state that Jesus was a human in flesh, but that he was also divine.

 

[Mattathias]

First, kindly post the book, chapter and verse where your Bible quotes come from. It is sloppy exegetics to casually throw out, out of context verses, and not even tell people where they are found.

This is a chat forum. If it is a requirement of this site to post the book, chapter and verse then it should be stated somewhere. If it is, I haven’t seen it. If people ask, I will tell them. Sometimes I post the book, chapter and verse. Sometimes I assume fellow Christians know the book, chapter and verse. Sometimes I don’t. I’m sure we wouldn’t have to look hard to find others on this forum who do the same. Would we have to look hard to find you requesting them to do the same as you are politely requesting me?

Paul was not talking about the Trinity in your quote. Looking back, he was explaining how there are no gods, only one God.

Exactly.

"So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods,whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." 1 Cor 8:4-6

Paul most certainly believed Jesus was God as well as human, and so he is talking historical monotheism in this passage, as opposed to polytheism.

Historical monotheism is Jewish monotheism.

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen." Romans 9:5

See other translations of this verse.

"Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory." 1 Tim 3:16

I believe this translation is the correct way to render the passage.

Both these verses clearly state that Jesus was a human in flesh, but that he was also divine.

I agree that both of these verses clearly state that Jesus is a human person.

 

[fredoheaven]

Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah and Son of the living God, is himself a Jewish monotheist. Following his resurrection from the dead by his God, he ascended to his God. He is presently seated at the right hand of his God on his God’s throne in heaven. He will one day return and sit on David’s throne in Jerusalem. He is the seed of Abraham. All who belong to Messiah are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise.

Jesus is Lord. His God and Father is the one true God.

Seems you're unable to handle 1 John 5:20
John 5:20, KJV: "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

 

[Mattathias]

Seems you're unable to handle 1 John 5:20
John 5:20, KJV: "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

Please see the discussion in the trinitarian commentaries I posted.