Justified by work vs faith

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T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#41
Aug 4, 2020
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#41
Jackson123 said:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

Abraham justified by faith, is that mean he don't need to work?

Start with faith, Abraham had to do a Lot of work.

Faith make him to do work, travel with thousand of animal about 2200 miles. That is a Lot of work.

Quote
From Ur, Abraham traveled 700 miles to the borders of present-day Iraq, another 700 miles into Syria, another 800 down to Egypt by the inland road, and then back into Canaan - what is now Israel.Mar 13, 1983

End quote.

By faith Noah do a Lot of work to save himself and whosoever believe.

He had to build a huge ship. That is alot of work.

When the Lord ask Abraham to go to the promise land, Abraham not say, Yes Lord, but you do It for me, Send your angel to carry me and my family, and my animal and I Will be there in a second by faith

Apparently he had to work for It.

By faith we save, as soon as we have faith and die in the next se
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In the Old testament
two people go to offer up sacrifices to the Lord . One offers up with joy in his heart wishing he could do more and give more to the God he loves and has faith in . The other is hoping his offering will save him through the act he is doing to the God who he has no faith in . Which one will be saved ?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#42
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#42
Jackson123 said:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

Abraham justified by faith, is that mean he don't need to work?

Start with faith, Abraham had to do a Lot of work.

Faith make him to do work, travel with thousand of animal about 2200 miles. That is a Lot of work.

Quote
From Ur, Abraham traveled 700 miles to the borders of present-day Iraq, another 700 miles into Syria, another 800 down to Egypt by the inland road, and then back into Canaan - what is now Israel.Mar 13, 1983

End quote.

By faith Noah do a Lot of work to save himself and whosoever believe.

He had to build a huge ship. That is alot of work.

When the Lord ask Abraham to go to the promise land, Abraham not say, Yes Lord, but you do It for me, Send your angel to carry me and my family, and my animal and I Will be there in a second by faith

Apparently he had to work for It.

By faith we save, as soon as we have faith and die in the next se
Click to expand...
Do you see any difference between the old and new testament? Specifically because of Jesus ?
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#43
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#43
Jackson123 said:
So Why do you think Paul say 2 oppodite verse

Save not by work >< work oN your own salvation?

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Read full chapter
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Every verse of scripture is from the same God with the same message, so it is up to us to see the truth of both. The truth is simple. Salvation is not from our works, over and out. After we are saved we work, not for salvation but as a righteous person we want to stay righteous. Our righteousness is not from our work, it is Christ in us.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#44
Dec 6, 2016
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#44
throughfaith said:
In the Old testament
two people go to offer up sacrifices to the Lord . One offers up with joy in his heart wishing he could do more and give more to the God he loves and has faith in . The other is hoping his offering will save him through the act he is doing to the God who he has no faith in . Which one will be saved ?
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What Christ is about and what the OT sacrifices were about is the forgiveness of sin. That is what we are to have faith in. Neither of these people seems to understand that.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#45
Feb 6, 2014
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#45
throughfaith said:
In the Old testament
two people go to offer up sacrifices to the Lord . One offers up with joy in his heart wishing he could do more and give more to the God he loves and has faith in . The other is hoping his offering will save him through the act he is doing to the God who he has no faith in . Which one will be saved ?
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Who do you mean that have No faith, did the bible say one a E faith the other No faith?

It Seem you believe faith mean love ( you say God he love)
Is the other not love God

Is faith mean live GOD.?
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#46
Feb 6, 2014
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#46
throughfaith said:
Do you see any difference between the old and new testament? Specifically because of Jesus ?
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I don't know what exactly your question

It Seem OT do animal sacrifice not NT but NT require carry the cross.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#47
Feb 6, 2014
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#47
Blik said:
Every verse of scripture is from the same God with the same message, so it is up to us to see the truth of both. The truth is simple. Salvation is not from our works, over and out. After we are saved we work, not for salvation but as a righteous person we want to stay righteous. Our righteousness is not from our work, it is Christ in us.
Click to expand...
So you believe philipians2 work for righteous not for salvation

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own SALVATION with fear and trembling.

My brother the verse say work for salvation not righteousness
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#48
Feb 6, 2014
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#48
garee said:
' Christ who works in us .
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So you believe we judge by what Christ do.

For Example we kill others It Will be ok because Christ in us not kill

And we judge not BU what we do but what Christ do
 
G

garee

Banned
#49
Mar 28, 2016
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#49
Jackson123 said:
So you believe we judge by what Christ do.

For Example we kill others It Will be ok because Christ in us not kill

And we judge not BU what we do but what Christ do
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We judge or evaluate according to his law as it is written. He know the hearts of all men and works in them making it soft .The loving judgement of God.

An example . God set the standard . When Cain was told the kind of suffering "a living hell". Satan the murder from the beginning (Abel) who hates all flesh tried to bargain with the judgment of God. By the mark or judgement of his word (666) God propmised his judgement would prevail .The punishment was more that Cain could bear alone.

The punishment Christ bears with us yoked with him making the load lighter .He received no rest from the gospel as Abel did.

Geneisis4:13-15 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#50
Apr 7, 2014
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#50
Bbrdrd said:
This may be a semantic disagreement, but it seems to me a mere demonstration doesn't quite capture the full weight of the passage in James. It certainly isn't saying the act merited the declaration of righteousness
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The act certainly did not merit the declaration of righteousness. Critical agreement there.

but it speaks of the act completing the faith.
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Completing the faith in what sense? As in James 2:22, we read faith made perfect or "complete" by works, which means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. But of course it doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

While that could be said to be a demonstration I'm not sure demonstration has quite enough force of effect. Rather the action was a tangible expression of the faith, with the works and faith being of one accord.
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Demonstration, demonstrative evidence, expression. May just be in the semantics. Yet faith is still faith and works are still works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit.

In the same way, if we claim to have faith but our works deny that faith we may have to reflect and challenge ourselves whether we are truly resting in the promises of God.
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This is what James talks about in James 2:14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? Well what kind of faith is that? -- empty profession of faith/dead faith, which is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
 
G

garee

Banned
#51
Mar 28, 2016
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#51
mailmandan said:
The act certainly did not merit the declaration of righteousness. Critical agreement there.

Completing the faith in what sense? As in James 2:22, we read faith made perfect or "complete" by works, which means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. But of course it doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Demonstration, demonstrative evidence, expression. May just be in the semantics. Yet faith is still faith and works are still works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit.

This is what James talks about in James 2:14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? Well what kind of faith is that? -- empty profession of faith/dead faith, which is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
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We are saved by Christ's work of faith or labor of love it as the power of God works in us not of us Abraham and Rehab were not saved by their own faith they had none that could please God

James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Nothing is accredited to the person of Abraham or Rehab .They were the object of the faith of Christ that worked in.

The will of God will can be separated from the power or action . (faith form works) The faith of Christ, the mutual faith of Christianity works with the will of God .It is God who works in us just as it worked in Abraham and Rehab .

We are to believe as its works in us without murmuring . Like that of Jonas who desired to die because it did work in the hearts of those Jonas hated. The people of Nineveh believed God, as the spirit of Christ the gospel worked in them

Jonah 4 King James Version (KJV) But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry. And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
 
B

Bbrdrd

Banned
#52
Apr 2, 2020
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#52
mailmandan said:
The act certainly did not merit the declaration of righteousness. Critical agreement there.

Completing the faith in what sense? As in James 2:22, we read faith made perfect or "complete" by works, which means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. But of course it doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Demonstration, demonstrative evidence, expression. May just be in the semantics. Yet faith is still faith and works are still works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit.

This is what James talks about in James 2:14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? Well what kind of faith is that? -- empty profession of faith/dead faith, which is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
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Yes, it does seem to be a matter of semantics as I read it in much the same way though I'm not sure there is a good way to put it in English that gives full weight without overstepping into works-based salvation.

Completion, as you say, is to bring it into maturity. The realization of potential, so to speak. The crucial act in both the work in Genesis 22 and the promise in Genesis 15 is the believing with the justification being fully realized much earlier. While we can point Scripturally to Genesis 15 as the statement we know from Hebrews that the same faith that justified him in Genesis 15 was present in Genesis 12.

A lot of these works/faith discussions seem to get derailed by minor disjunctions being tugged at by individuals at the extremes rather than seeking to find common ground and understanding each others positions better.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#53
Nov 24, 2012
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#53
Jackson123 said:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

Abraham justified by faith, is that mean he don't need to work?

Start with faith, Abraham had to do a Lot of work.

Faith make him to do work, travel with thousand of animal about 2200 miles. That is a Lot of work.

Quote
From Ur, Abraham traveled 700 miles to the borders of present-day Iraq, another 700 miles into Syria, another 800 down to Egypt by the inland road, and then back into Canaan - what is now Israel.Mar 13, 1983

End quote.

By faith Noah do a Lot of work to save himself and whosoever believe.

He had to build a huge ship. That is alot of work.

When the Lord ask Abraham to go to the promise land, Abraham not say, Yes Lord, but you do It for me, Send your angel to carry me and my family, and my animal and I Will be there in a second by faith

Apparently he had to work for It.

By faith we save, as soon as we have faith and die in the next se
Click to expand...
LOL, when the Scriptures refer to 'works of the law', it is not referring to manual labor.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#57
Aug 4, 2020
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#57
Jackson123 said:
To forgive the sin of the people that believe in Him, believe His teaching.
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So John the baptist was wrong when he said " behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world "
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#58
Feb 6, 2014
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#58
throughfaith said:
So John the baptist was wrong when he said " behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world "
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John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John the baptist right Jesus want to save all man but there is requirement that is believe

Believe not is condemned.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#59
Aug 4, 2020
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#59
Jackson123 said:
John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John the baptist right Jesus want to save all man but there is requirement that is believe

Believe not is condemned.
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Yes and its a once beliveing that saves .
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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#60
Jul 8, 2018
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#60
Jackson123 said:
That mean you believe to go to heaven don't need obidience, am I correct?
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Obedience comes after you are born again. God quickened you to a new life for the purpose of honoring, and praising him, and to be obedient to do good works. After we are born again, we should strive to do good works and be obedient, but we are not always obedient, and yes we will still go to heaven.
 
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