"this generation will not pass away" - until the second coming of Jesus?

Northwind80 · Aug 19, 2020

I would rather discuss how to interpret the Bible according to a historical grammatical approach than I would like to talk about doctrinal labels. Do you believe that the historical context is important? Also, what about understanding the language and grammar?

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2020

Northwind80 said:

The context of Matthew 24 is in light of questions asked of the disciples to the Lord?

(What Shall Be The Sign Of Thy Coming, And Of The End Of The World)?

Rhe Great Tribulation, And Jesus Christ Returning Immediately After As Seen In Matthew 24:29-30 Below Are (Future) Events Unfulfilled.

Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Skovand · Aug 19, 2020

Some other clues that it’s obviously symbolism.

Stars don’t fall. The moon does not actually turn blood red as described in revelation and it does not just stop reflecting light either. You can trace all of these things throughout the Torah as well.

Northwind80 · Aug 19, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Actually, the context is even bigger than just he first 2 verses of Matthew 24. We really need to read the chapter in light of the growing tension between Jesus and the Jewish religious leaders that we see building all the way from chapter 21. Chapters 23 and 24 are the climax of that tension.

Question for you- what chapter in the OT is Matthew 24:30 alluding to? Important to understand that because Matthew's Jewish audience would have picked up on it right away. And once we identify that passage, how does it help us understand "Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

All I'm doing is trying to understand Matthew 24 in light of it's historical and grammatical context. And the OT is helpful in understanding it especially since Jesus alludes to it here.

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2020

Northwind80 said:

Is all your doing is trying to (Remove) the Second Coming seen in Matthew 24:29-30 below, to breathe life into the false Preterist teaching.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Northwind80 · Aug 19, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Is all your doing is trying to (Remove) the Second Coming seen in Matthew 24:29-30 below, to breathe life into the false Preterist teaching.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Just trying to use a historical grammatical interpretation! Do you believe in that approach?

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2020

Skovand said:

Stars don't fall, the moon is never seen as blood red?

Blood red moon

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Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2020

Northwind80 said:

Stop the false teaching, Jesus Christ (Literally) returns as seen below.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Northwind80 · Aug 19, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Well, I can't say I've ever seen blood quite that color. But that's beside the point. How about we understand the language in Matt 24:29 based on the historical grammatical approach to the Bible? Sound like a good idea!!!! So where else in the Old Testament has this language been used and what did it mean? This is actually a very legitimate question to ask because Jesus was speaking to his Jewish disciples and Matthew was writing to a Jewish audience who would have understood this kind of language and what it meant.

So here's a couple passages:

Isaiah 13:9-10
Ezekiel 32:7-8
Isaiah 34:4-5

In these passages, Isaiah and Ezekiel symbolically refer to heavenly events (in similar language to Matt 24:29) to describe God's judgment on Babylon, Egypt, and Edom. Take a look at Isaiah 34:4-5:

"And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment"

Questions:
Did the host of heaven dissolve back then? No.
Can this language be used to describe a judgment on a particular country? Yes
Is Christ making an OT allusion with this same type language? Yes
In light of the historical context (Matt 23) of Matthew 24, what earthly judgment is about to come? Jerusalem and the temple.

Northwind80 · Aug 19, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Well I do believe that Christ literally returns. But I'm still waiting for a few answers. What is the OT passage that Jesus refers to in verse 30?
Also, you can say I'm teaching falsely as much as you want, but at the end of the day, if you don't agree with me, then you need to counter what I'm saying with your own historical grammatical reasons. Because that approach is what matters. Do you believe that the Bible refers to actual history?

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2020

Northwind80 said:

No history or grammar is needed to interpret the scripture below.

Stop the false teaching, Jesus Christ (Literally) returns as seen below.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Northwind80 · Aug 19, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Wow, without grammar we couldn't understand anything written or spoken at all! Wow. I guess I'll sign off on this discussion then seeing that we are a universe apart on more than just understanding the Bible. Thanks for replies though. I did enjoy the discussion!

Truth7t7 · Aug 19, 2020

Northwind80 said:

Stop the false teaching, Jesus Christ (Literally) returns as seen below.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Northwind80 · Aug 19, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

Actually, the Greek word for race is genos rather than genea. I know they look close but they're different words.

Northwind80 · Aug 19, 2020

Dino246 said:

The chapter begins with Jesus' prophecy that the temple would be destroyed. It was destroyed about 40 years later... many of the people who were alive at the time He spoke those words would still have been alive in 70 AD.

Jesus said "This generation", not "That generation". I find quite humorous the mental gymnastics people invent to make it mean something other than what the plain text means.

Isn't it amazing how we can't let Jesus just say what he said!!!?????

TheDivineWatermark · Aug 19, 2020

Jesus was speaking of the 70ad events in Luke 21:12-24a [with 24b following on from there], and Luke 19:41-44 [what He said on Palm Sunday, the very day the 69 Weeks (total) were concluded], and in Matthew 22:7... [with v.8 saying "THEN SAITH HE to his servants," necessarily referring to that which FOLLOWED the 70ad events, and He was in Heaven then... but the later 95ad writing of "[The] Revelation" qualifies...

(Rev1:1/4:1/1:19c/7:3)]... I've quoted Wm Kelly on the Luke 21:32 passage in other threads... today I'll post from his Matthew 24 commentary.

This is how I understand it also, pretty much:

[quoting Wm Kelly's Matthew 24 Commentary... on "this generation" (see also his Commentary on Luke 21 and verse 32 of that passage)]:

"But solemnly the Saviour warns that "this generation," this Christ-rejecting race in Israel, shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled!
"The notion that all was fulfilled in the past siege of Jerusalem, founded on a narrow and unscriptural sense of this passage, is from not hearing what the Lord says to the disciples. By the term "generation" in a genealogy (as Matt. 1), or where the context requires it (as Luke 1:50), a life-time no doubt is meant: but where is it so used in the prophetic Scriptures - the Psalms, etc.? The meaning herein is moral rather than chronological; as, for instance, in Psalm 12:7, "Thou shalt keep them, O Lord; Thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." The words "for ever" prove a prolonged force; and accordingly the passage intimates that Jehovah shall preserve the godly from their lawless oppressors, "from this generation for ever." It is a distinct and conclusive refutation of those who would limit the phrase to the short epoch of a man's lifetime. So, in Deuteronomy 32:5; Deu 32:20, we find generation similarly used, not to convey a period, but to express the moral characteristics of Israel. Again, in the Psalms we have "the generation to come," which is not confined to a mere term of thirty or a hundred years. So also in Proverbs 30:11-14: "There is a generation that curseth their father. . . There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes," etc., where the character of certain classes is considered; even plainer, if possible, is the usage in the synoptic Gospels. Thus, in Matthew 11:16, "Whereunto shall I liken this generation?" means such as then lived, characterized by the moral capriciousness which set them in opposition to God's testimony, whatever it might be, in righteousness or in grace. But evidently, though people then alive are primarily in view, the moral identity of the same features might extend indefinitely, and so from age to age it would still be "this generation." Compare Matthew 12:39; Mat 12:41-42; Mat 12:45, which last verse shows the unity of the "generation" in its final judgment (not yet exhausted) with that which emerged from the Babylonish captivity. Again, note chapter 23: 36, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation" - a generation which would continue till all the predictions of judgment that Christ uttered shall be fulfilled (chap. 24: 34). As it is plain from what has been already shown, that much remains to be accomplished, "this generation" still subsists, and will, till all is over. And how true it is! Here are the Jews - the wonder of every thoughtful mind - not merely a broken, scattered, and withal perpetuated race; not only distinct, spite of mighty effort from without to blot them out, and from within to amalgamate with others, but with the same unbelief, rejection and scorn of Jesus their Messiah as on the day He pronounced their sentence. All these things - speaking of their earlier and their latest sorrows - should come to pass before that wicked generation shall disappear. "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." That which incredulity counts most stable, the scene of its idolatry or )f its self-exaltation, shall vanish; but the words of Christ, let them be about Israel or others, shall abide for ever.

"But if all be thus sure and unfailing, the Father alone knows the day and hour (ver. 36). Ample and distinct signs the Saviour had announced already, and the wise shall understand; "but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand." "But as the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not till the flood came and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be" (vers. 37-39). Here is another testimony that our Lord in this position speaks of the Jewish disciples of the latter day (represented by those who then surrounded Him), and not of the Church. For His illustration is taken from the preservation of Noah and his house through the waters of the deluge; whereas the Holy Ghost, through Paul, illustrates our hope according to the pattern of Enoch, caught up to heaven, entirely apart from the scenes and circumstances of judgment here below.

"Moreover, when the Son of Man thus comes in judgment upon living men here below, it will not be, as when the Romans or others took Jerusalem, indiscriminate slaughter or captivity; but whether in the open country or the duties of home, whether men or women, there will be righteous discernment of individuals. "Then shall two be in the field, the one is taken and the other left; two women grinding at the mill, the one is taken and the other left" (vers. 40, 41). The meaning clearly is that one is taken away judicially, and the other left to enjoy the blessings of Christ's reign, who shall judge God's people with righteousness and His poor with judgment. It is the converse of our change, when the dead in Christ shall rise first, and we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air; for those who are left, in our case, are left to be punished with everlasting destruction from His presence. But the Lord will also have an earthly people. He waits till the heavenly saints are gathered to Him above, and then begins to sow, if I may thus speak, for earthly blessing, in which case His coming as Son of Man will be for the removal of the wicked, leaving the righteous undisturbed in peace. "There shall be a handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon; and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth. His name shall endure for ever: His name shall continue as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in Him: all nations shall call Him blessed. - Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things. And blessed be His glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with His glory. Amen, and Amen" (Psalm 72:16-19).

""Watch therefore, for ye know not at what hour (or day*) your Lord is coming." The dealings with Israel, ending with the rescue of the just in their midst, involve the judgment of the self-secure and unconscious world."

--William Kelly, Matthew 24 Commentary - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/matthew/24.htm

[end quoting; bold mine]

soberxp · Aug 19, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

I knew blood moon happened several years ago from CCTV news, funny was believers did even know it. It wrote in bible, sometimes, I think We're not ready for what's coming。。。。。。。。。。。And I know that if you tell them about the red moon, they'll say, even if this happened, the scripture things didn't happen

soberxp · Aug 19, 2020

P.S. I have said in my others post, so many things have happened in the past 12years from 2008.10.10

soberxp · Aug 19, 2020

P.S : If I remember correctly, the red moon has happened twice

Locoponydirtman · Aug 19, 2020

Ok one must actually read the passage to understand what is being said.
The disciples ask two questions, Jesus gives two answers. What will be the sign of the end of the age? And when will he return? All those horrific things that Jesus said we're the signs of the end of the age, and they will happen before that generation passed away, and it did the passing of that age ended with the final destruction of the temple in 70 ad.
But as for the coming of the son of man, there is no sign.

"this generation will not pass away" - until the second coming of Jesus?

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