is Jesus a creature or a being?

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unclefester said:
1Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in to glory"............. Who was "God manifest in the flesh" if it wasn't Jesus ? Who and what "God" was preached unto the gentiles ? Who and what "God" was received up into glory ?


(Manifest : readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain.
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Yes I agree, God was manifest in the flesh alright, therefore he is the image of God, but not God. But his image. He is the reflection of God. Not God himself.

God said to worship Jesus. Even the angels are told to worship Jesus. So Jesus is God. But he is still not the Father. Jesus gave us an example how to pray as well
Our Father
Who art in heaven ............

Not our Jesus, or our Christ who art in heaven, but our Father. We have to go through Christ. No one can come to the Father but through Christ. He was made the mediator between God and us. What does mediator mean? The inbetween one.

We must learn to follow his advise or his way. Not our own way.
 
wakeup said:
Dont you realise that you are contradicting God, Jesus & Peter? Because if you ask Peter the question about Jesus he would say he is the son of God. But you say no, he is God. Can you see the difference? Now, would you believe Jesus, or your preacher? Up to you.
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Again Son of God is God the Son. Every knee will bow before the Lord Christ. He is the the Alpha and Omega the First and Last the Alimghty. He is the everlasting Father and the prince of peace. He is the second Adam. Before Abraham He was. He is the Creator of the world. He is the mediator between God and man. Jews sought to kill Him because He claimed God as His Father making Him equal with God. He is even Lord of the sabbath. His unusual birth makes His deity known. OT pointed to Jesus Christ. The Lord is the redeemer and Christ is the redeemer.

This all I got from the bible and there is more. Son of God is God the Son.
 
wakeup said:
Yes I agree, God was manifest in the flesh alright, therefore he is the image of God, but not God. But his image. He is the reflection of God. Not God himself.

God said to worship Jesus. Even the angels are told to worship Jesus. So Jesus is God. But he is still not the Father. Jesus gave us an example how to pray as well
Our Father
Who art in heaven ............

Not our Jesus, or our Christ who art in heaven, but our Father. We have to go through Christ. No one can come to the Father but through Christ. He was made the mediator between God and us. What does mediator mean? The inbetween one.

We must learn to follow his advise or his way. Not our own way.
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quote - God's method of communicating his mind and will under the New-Testament dispensation, these last days as they are called, that is, either towards the end of the world, or the end of the Jewish state. The times of the gospel are the last times, the gospel revelation is the last we are to expect from God. There was first the natural revelation; then the patriarchal, by dreams, visions, and voices; then the Mosaic, in the law given forth and written down; then the prophetic, in explaining the law, and giving clearer discoveries of Christ: but now we must expect no new revelation, but only more of the Spirit of Christ to help us better to understand what is already revealed. Now the excellency of the gospel revelation above the former consists in two things:--

1. It is the final, the finishing revelation, given forth in the last days of divine revelation, to which nothing is to be added, but the canon of scripture is to be settled and sealed: so that now the minds of men are no longer kept in suspense by the expectation of new discoveries, but they rejoice in a complete revelation of the will of God, both preceptive and providential, so far as is necessary for them to know in order to their direction and comfort. For the gospel includes a discovery of the great events that shall befall the church of God to the end of the world.

2. It is a revelation which God has made by his Son, the most excellent messenger that was ever sent into the world, far superior to all the ancient patriarchs and prophets, by whom God communicated his will to his people in former times. And here we have an excellent account of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The glory of his office, and that in three respects:--

[1.] God hath appointed him to be heir of all things. As God, he was equal to the Father; but, as God-man and Mediator, he was appointed by the Father to be the heir of all things, the sovereign Lord of all, the absolute disposer, director, and governor of all persons and of all things, Ps. ii. 6, 7. All power in heaven and earth is given to him; all judgment is committed to him, Matt. xxviii. 18; John v. 22.

[2.] By him God made the worlds, both visible and invisible, the heavens and the earth; not as an instrumental cause, but as his essential word and wisdom. By him he made the old creation, by him he makes the new creature, and by him he rules and governs both.

[3.] He upholds all things by the word of his power: he keeps the world from dissolving. By him all things consist. The weight of the whole creation is laid upon Christ: he supports the whole and all the parts. When, upon the apostasy, the world was breaking to pieces under the wrath and curse of God, the Son of God, undertaking the work of redemption, bound it up again, and established it by his almighty power and goodness. None of the ancient prophets sustained such an office as this, none was sufficient for it.

Hence the apostle passes to the glory of the person of Christ, who was able to execute such an office: He was the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of his person, v. 3. This is a high and lofty description of the glorious Redeemer, this is an account of his personal excellency.

[1.] He is, in person, the Son of God, the only-begotten Son of God, and as such he must have the same nature. This personal distinction always supposes one and the same nature. Every son of man is man; were not the nature the same, the generation would be monstrous.

[2.] The person of the Son is the glory of the Father, shining forth with a truly divine splendour. As the beams are effulgent emanations of the sun, the father and fountain of light, Jesus Christ in his person is God manifest in the flesh, he is light of light, the true Shechinah.

[3.] The person of the Son is the true image and character of the person of the Father; being of the same nature, he must bear the same image and likeness. In beholding the power, wisdom, and goodness, of the Lord Jesus Christ, we behold the power, wisdom, and goodness, of the Father; for he hath the nature and perfections of God in him. He that hath seen the Son hath seen the Father; that is, he hath seen the same Being. He that hath known the Son hath known the Father, John xiv. 7-9. For the Son is in the Father, and the Father in the Son; the personal distinction is no other than will consist with essential union. This is the glory of the person of Christ; the fulness of the Godhead dwells, not typically, but really, in him.

From the glory of the person of Christ he proceeds to mention the glory of his grace; his condescension itself was truly glorious. The sufferings of Christ had this great honour in them, to be a full satisfaction for the sins of his people: By himself he purged away our sins, that is, by the proper innate merit of his death and bloodshed, by their infinite intrinsic value; as they were the sufferings of himself, he has made atonement for sin. Himself, the glory of his person and nature, gave to his sufferings such merit as was a sufficient reparation of honour to God, who had suffered an infinite injury and affront by the sins of men.

From the glory of his sufferings we are at length led to consider the glory of his exaltation: When by himself he had purged away our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, at his Father's right hand. As Mediator and Redeemer, he is invested with the highest honour, authority, and activity, for the good of his people; the Father now does all things by him, and receives all the services of his people from him. Having assumed our nature, and suffered in it on earth, he has taken it up with him to heaven, and there it has the high honour to be next to God, and this was the reward of his humiliation.

Now it was by no less a person than this that God in these last days spoke to men; and, since the dignity of the messenger gives authority and excellency to the message, the dispensations of the gospel must therefore exceed, very far exceed, the dispensation of the law. - unquote
 
Tigger2 said:
Death is the grave & we sleep until the resurrection. If no one has seen the Father it would seem pretty plain no one but Christ has gone to heaven. Just more misinterpretation or misunderstanding of scripture.
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This is what i call interpreting scripture correctly. Thank you Tigger.
 
Originally Posted by wakeup
That is exactly it, he was the first fruit of the resurection and many will follow him in the day of the resurection. At his coming: But the christian world dont teach that. thye say when you die today you will go straight to heaven; why the contradiction here?

''wakeup''.

Tigger2 said:
Death is the grave & we sleep until the resurrection. If no one has seen the Father it would seem pretty plain no one but Christ has gone to heaven. Just more misinterpretation or misunderstanding of scripture.
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Every single believer that has died or is fallen asleep, is absent from their body and present with the Lord according to (2Cor 5:1-8)...

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved , we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan , earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan , being burdened : not for that we would be unclothed , but clothed upon , that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident , knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident , I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

also in (Phil 1:21-24)...

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour : yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart , and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

also in (Rev 6:9,10)...

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held : 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying , How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

also (Mt 17:1-3)...

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter , James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart , 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold , there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

*Moses died and was buried but he appears here with Elias and Christ Jesus and the scriptures record that Elias had previously been taken up in a whirlwind into heaven (2Kgs 2:11).

The conclusions that we draw and infer from these is that when we die, our bodies go into the grave (like they are asleep waiting for the resurrection and redemption of our body - Rom 8:23), our spirit goes back to God who gave it (Eccl 12:7) and our soul (which is who we are and that which has been already redeemed through the blood of Christ - Eph 1:7, Col 1:14) goes to be present with the Lord who has acended into heaven at the right hand of God (Jn 6:62, 20:17, Eph 4:8-10, Acts 1:11, 7:55-60).

*In (Jn 3:13) we have the following...

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

*There are several things that can be said of this verse. The ascendion of Christ has two unique aspects.

1 - He was with the Father and originated from heaven from whence He was sent (Jn 6:38, 3:16, 17:5,).

2 - By becoming and taking on the flesh of man, He was crucified in weakness and His body died and was buried in the grave/tomb (2Tim 3:16, Rom 8:3, 2Cor 13:4, Mk 6:29). He had already commended his spirit into the hand of the Father (Lk 23:46). His body was resurrected from the grave and was the only one from that state who has ever ascended into heaven with both body and soul after death, making Him the first-fruit of the resurrection (1Cor 15:20-23)...

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept . 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Elijah was caught up or translated (Heb 11:5, 2Kgs 2:11) (like Philip, from one place to another - Acts 8:39,40 ) but Christ ascended in His own power after His body was resurrected from the dead (Jn 20:17, Jn 11:25, Rom 1:4).
 
I will send an angel before you and drive out the Cananites, Amorites, Hittites, Peresites, Hivites and Jebusites
Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey
BUT I WILL NOT GO WITH YOU, because you are a stiff necked people and I might destroy you on the way

Ex 33:2&3

The Lord replied MY PRESCENCE will go with you and I will give you rest

Ex 33:14

In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his PRESCENCE saved them
Isiaih 63:9

We know the one refered to as 'the angel of God's prescence' who accompanied the Israelites was Christ 1 Cor 10:4

But God said he would NOT GO with the Israelites

So, if God did not go with them, but Christ did, how can Christ be the one true God Himself?

I would appreciate an opinion on this from anyone
 
Again Jesus is both God and man. God was talking and speaking through flesh. Just because we have the Spirit of God in us doesn't make us half God and half human. Jesus was both human and God.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Guess that rules out Jesus, For he was never created. he always was.
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The word was never created he was allways with God from ever lasting,but when that word was MADE flesh this person has a beginning,the son of God, he is like us, man.
but in him is the word of God in full.He was speaking Gods word,he was killed, now he is given a spirit body like we will also. This man Jesus is now GIVEN all authority,and sitting next to God waiting untill God puts all his enemies down.
God tells the angels to worship him,and we also. This only makes him God,but not the father. He depends on his father and allways will. In rev 22:16 He still claims to be of the root of david.Dont forget that God MADE him lower than the angels.Now he was MADE higher than the angels. He is put in charge, no one can come to the father by through him, he is the mediator between God and man,he is the bridge. and he has been given a new name also, THE WORD OF GOD. He also is the alpha and the omega.
Which is the word of God.
 
Crazy4GODword said:
what are you talking about?

Paul agrees that Jesus is Lord and God.....

Plus would you believe Paul instead of Jesus (just saying).

Paul is a true follower of Christ but Christ's Own word said that He was the "Almighty"

Jesus even says He is the Almighty (just a reminder)
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Never; show me that scripture.
 
Colossians 1:15-17
Colossians 2:9
Philippians 2:6
1 Timothy 3:16
Hebrews 1:8
 
how can a man be perfect and be a perfect sacrifice if He is not God? you ask how Jesus can be God. God answers "with men (it is) impossible, but not with God" I'll let you read it in context.It is talking about how SALVATION happens. personally the whole chapter would be good to reread, but you get the picture....maybe, but will you accept it?


Mark 10:26-28 (Amplified Bible)
26And they were shocked and exceedingly astonished, and said to Him and [a]to one another, Then who can be saved?

27Jesus glanced around at them and said, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.

28Peter started to say to Him, Behold, we have yielded up and abandoned everything [once and for all and [c]joined You as Your disciples, siding with Your party] and accompanied You [[d]walking the same road that You walk].
 
also how then can a man know the hearts of men? Only God knows the thoughts of men, so whats your view on that?

And what about Jesus' never sinned? For in Romans 3:23 it says, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
This shows that He is unsinnable (made up this word :D).....what are your views on this?

What about OT scriptures? They point to someone special, but why a man like us...what makes a man so special to be spoken about before his birth?.....no, it is pointing to God being there in the flesh for men are not as great as the Lord. So Christ is special and was the great Leader and still is. What are your views on this?

What about His baptism, it shows the Trinity. There you see Jesus, Holy Spirit (dove) and the Father in this event. Jesus being baptized, Holy Spirit flew on Him like a dove, and the Father speaking about Him......these are happening at this one point in time.....proven to show persons in the Trinity. What are your views on this?

What about when Jesus said in Luke 22:69, Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. Right hand of God the Father, then who is on the left? Could it be the Holy Spirit? What are your views on this?

What about His death? in Matthew 27:46-50 it says,

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

So after Jesus' held everyone sin, God Spirit could not be with Him. So when He cried that and then gave up the The Holy Spirit, He died. Notice when He gave up His Spirit (Holy Spirit), He died showing that the body was nothing but an instrument.....God was in total control. So when He gave up the Spirit of God, He died because He held sin on a human sacrifice. what is your thoughts on this?
 
Crazy4GODword said:
also how then can a man know the hearts of men? Only God knows the thoughts of men, so whats your view on that?
The fulness of God dwelled in him;he has God qualities. but not God himself.
And what about Jesus' never sinned? For in Romans 3:23 it says, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
This shows that He is unsinnable (made up this word :D).....what are your views on this?
He was a perfect son.
What about OT scriptures? They point to someone special, but why a man like us...what makes a man so special to be spoken about before his birth?.....no, it is pointing to God being there in the flesh for men are not as great as the Lord. So Christ is special and was the great Leader and still is. What are your views on this?
Because he is his only begoten son,But not God.
What about His baptism, it shows the Trinity. There you see Jesus, Holy Spirit (dove) and the Father in this event. Jesus being baptized, Holy Spirit flew on Him like a dove, and the Father speaking about Him......these are happening at this one point in time.....proven to show persons in the Trinity. What are your views on this?
He was the word of God made flesh,now made spirit again,and sitting next to the father.
What about when Jesus said in Luke 22:69, Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. Right hand of God the Father, then who is on the left? Could it be the Holy Spirit? What are your views on this?

What about His death? in Matthew 27:46-50 it says,

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
God left him ,then he died,but God is alive in heaven; so the man died, not God.
48And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

So after Jesus' held everyone sin, God Spirit could not be with Him. So when He cried that and then gave up the The Holy Spirit, He died. Notice when He gave up His Spirit (Holy Spirit), He died
He gave up his spirit; so who died? Jesus the man or God which is in heaven.
showing that the body was nothing but an instrument.....God was in total control. So when He gave up the Spirit of God, He died because He held sin on a human sacrifice. what is your thoughts on this?
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He did not give up the spirit of God, but his own spirit,we also have our own spirit.
You still believe God died; not Jesus?
 
God died as a human. Jesus' claimed Himself as "The Amighty"

Notice when He let His Spirit He died by flesh.......and His Spirit was the HS .....read birth of Jesus

Jesus is both God and man
 
Crazy4GODword said:
God died as a human. Jesus' claimed Himself as "The Amighty"

Notice when He let His Spirit He died by flesh.......and His Spirit was the HS .....read birth of Jesus

Jesus is both God and man
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Jesus called himself the almighty???
can you show me that scripture please.
 
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