Irresistible Grace ?

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soberxp

soberxp

Senior Member
#21
May 3, 2018
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#21
will draw all men unto me, is it mean all men will be saved ?or just draw(a blueprint that) all men(sinners) unto Jesus chirst ?
Or both are meant to be
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#22
May 17, 2013
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#22
Gods grace is greater than all our sins. That is how you define irresistible grace. No matter how wicked you were before you received Christ as your Savior you can still be saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#23
Aug 4, 2020
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#23
jackrosie said:
I don't see the Holy Spirit speaking through you at all....scripture you post,you twist and turn it to mean what you want it to mean......you speak your own thoughts.your own words.
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I'm not a prophet or an Apostle if that's what you mean . Today we have the scriptures.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#24
Aug 4, 2020
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#24
soberxp said:
will draw all men unto me, is it mean all men will be saved ?or just draw(a blueprint that) all men(sinners) unto Jesus chirst ?
Or both are meant to be
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I could attract every one to come and buy my house , but cannot make them buy .
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#25
Aug 28, 2012
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#25
throughfaith said:
The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .

But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .

And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .

3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.

4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.

5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .
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tbh I do not know for sure about if one has to always be drawn to him to be saved or not, that is how it was for me I didn't even bother seeking him until I felt the pull inside I honestly was not interested in God.
For others it seems they can be raised in a church home but do all the right things yet never feel that pull something I think does have to make us want to seek him whether that is curiosity the tugging or sometimes near death experiences but this is not limited to anything it seems I have heard of a guy who loved to watch the sunset and it was the light and beauty of the sunset that he was saved.

BBut the thing is the way the word draw is used in this particular context is always around Jesus speaking of raising on the last day him being lifted from earth and dawring the word drawing doesn't always mean an inner tug it seems to me and this may be an unpopular opinion that these verses seem to be speaking more of the event that shall not be named on this forum a lot of words are used implying raising being lifted up or in this case drawn up
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#26
Sep 8, 2018
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#26
Duskey said:
IMO some folks see the word “drawn” meaning God takes an active role in pulling some people to Him and they have no choice in the matter. I see “drawn” this way:

A person is lost in the wilderness and literally dying of thirst. At one point the person sees water off in the distance and bee lines it in order to take a drink. That person was drawn to the water because of a desire from within to have a drink.

Same thing with Jesus. People who recognize that He is God are drawn to Him from a desire within to be with God. He is our Living Water and we are drawn to Him so that we may drink.
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Thats great. but the word DRAWN definately has that connotation of being forceful. DRAGGING A FISH. Thats the word.

Everyone is missing the part where Jesus says ALL who are DRAWN will also COME. Its not like you can say NO to the drawing, once drawn you WILL come and you WILL be raised up at the last day.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#28
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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#28
Hevosmies said:
Thats great. but the word DRAWN definately has that connotation of being forceful. DRAGGING A FISH. Thats the word.

Everyone is missing the part where Jesus says ALL who are DRAWN will also COME. Its not like you can say NO to the drawing, once drawn you WILL come and you WILL be raised up at the last day.
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King Agrippa said no.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#29
Aug 4, 2020
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#29
Hevosmies said:
Thats great. but the word DRAWN definately has that connotation of being forceful. DRAGGING A FISH. Thats the word.

Everyone is missing the part where Jesus says ALL who are DRAWN will also COME. Its not like you can say NO to the drawing, once drawn you WILL come and you WILL be raised up at the last day.
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He says All men . universalism?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#30
Aug 4, 2020
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#30
Hevosmies said:
Thats great. but the word DRAWN definately has that connotation of being forceful. DRAGGING A FISH. Thats the word.

Everyone is missing the part where Jesus says ALL who are DRAWN will also COME. Its not like you can say NO to the drawing, once drawn you WILL come and you WILL be raised up at the last day.
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let's say every one is forcibly, picked up , dragged, man handled , kidnapped , held hostage at gun point and brought to Jesus , do they all have to necessarily believe ? Are you not adding to the t
throughfaith said:
He says All men . universalism?
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if a person is dragged to Jesus , does it mean they will believe in Jesus ?
 
jackrosie

jackrosie

Banned
#31
May 19, 2020
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#31
Our God is in heaven and does as he pleases.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#32
#32
throughfaith said:
let's say every one is forcibly, picked up , dragged, man handled , kidnapped , held hostage at gun point and brought to Jesus , do they all have to necessarily believe ? Are you not adding to the t

if a person is dragged to Jesus , does it mean they will believe in Jesus ?
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It does not matter because in this theory they are regenerated first (irresistible grace) and then believe.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#33
Aug 4, 2020
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#33
jackrosie said:
Our God is in heaven and does as he pleases.
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Amen . 1cor 1. 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe .
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#34
Sep 8, 2018
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#34
throughfaith said:
let's say every one is forcibly, picked up , dragged, man handled , kidnapped , held hostage at gun point and brought to Jesus , do they all have to necessarily believe ? Are you not adding to the t
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Yes they have to believe. But no problem as faith is a gift of God. as is the new heart of flesh.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#35
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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#35
throughfaith said:
He says All men . universalism?
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We've been thru the word all before. Romans 5:18 already teaches universalism if we take it for what it says. Thats why we need to take a look at the whole council of God.

But this particular verse, doesnt actually say MEN its not in the original text. Even if it is, Revelation 5:9 is the answer.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#36
Aug 4, 2020
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#36
Hevosmies said:
Yes they have to believe. But no problem as faith is a gift of God. as is the new heart of flesh.
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Yes thats in line with the system but the bible however says otherwise . Its clear that Jesus says he will draw ALL men , but not ALL men will believe the Gospel .
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#37
Sep 8, 2018
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#37
John146 said:
King Agrippa said no.
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Of course. All unregenerate men will say no.
throughfaith said:
Yes thats in line with the system but the bible however says otherwise . Its clear that Jesus says he will draw ALL men , but not ALL men will believe the Gospel .
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The system comes from Ephesians 2:8 where faith is a gift. And other verses too, actually. that say the same thing!

Eternal security is Calvinism, it came from that BRANCH. Security of the believer is only possible if salvation is of the LORD and not up to man's will. That is why GOD saves AND sanctifies. Thats where both groups get it wrong. You got the lawless easybelievism crowd, and you got the legalist arminian side BOTH in error failing to reconcile all of SCripture together. Where both sides hold some truth, but the answer lies in JESUS doing it.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#38
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#38
Hevosmies said:
We've been thru the word all before. Romans 5:18 already teaches universalism if we take it for what it says. Thats why we need to take a look at the whole council of God.

But this particular verse, doesnt actually say MEN its not in the original text. Even if it is, Revelation 5:9 is the answer.
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Rom 5 18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. How are you understanding this verse ?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#39
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#39
Hevosmies said:
Of course. All unregenerate men will say no.

The system comes from Ephesians 2:8 where faith is a gift. And other verses too, actually. that say the same thing!

Eternal security is Calvinism, it came from that BRANCH. Security of the believer is only possible if salvation is of the LORD and not up to man's will. That is why GOD saves AND sanctifies. Thats where both groups get it wrong. You got the lawless easybelievism crowd, and you got the legalist arminian side BOTH in error failing to reconcile all of SCripture together. Where both sides hold some truth, but the answer lies in JESUS doing it.
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I believe in Eternal security and reject all 5 points . including the P
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#40
Aug 4, 2020
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#40
Hevosmies said:
Yes they have to believe. But no problem as faith is a gift of God. as is the new heart of flesh.
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Any verse about a ' new heart of flesh ' for gentiles ? Or faith being a gift without butchering Eph 2 .8 ?
 
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