Chosen by God - A study in Election
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We are only ' conformed to his image ' at Glorification not conversion . Unless your already walking through walls like Jesus ? We are predesined to inheritance eph 1.11 . , The Adoption Rom 8.23 , And to be conformed to His image AFTER we believe Rom 8 . 29 Augustine and the rest flipped this back to front.
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Before you respond just stop and think for a minute. If election were for salvation, why would God now command ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent? (Acts 17:30) And repentance is the second condition for salvation (Acts 20:21).
God never contradicts Himself. Therefore election for salvation makes God a liar.
God never contradicts Himself. Therefore election for salvation makes God a liar.
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Sorry but you are not reading Romans 8
29-30 correctly.
Whom He did Foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of the Son
Then they are called ,
Then they are justified.Glorification comes last, but after being justified the process of being sanctified is well under way.
29-30 correctly.
Whom He did Foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of the Son
Then they are called ,
Then they are justified.Glorification comes last, but after being justified the process of being sanctified is well under way.
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"through faith,
You have posted this a few times now, Let's take a look;
[It doesn't say ' in the process of becoming more and more like Jesus ' .]
What are you saying?
God saves someone and does not sanctify them?
DOES GOD ALLOW SINNERS WHO HE SAVES FROM THEIR SINS, DRIFT AWAY FROM jESUS?
It says Predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Divine predestination, as it pertains to one’s personal salvation, is a truth filled with glorious blessing, unfathomable love and great encouragement. Predestination is the fountain of all grace, giving to free and sovereign grace its glorious nature and distinct character, as it puts salvation in the loving, purposeful, omnipotent hands of a sovereign God (Rom. 11:5–6; Eph. 1:3–11; 2:1–10).
It is the expression of God’s sovereign, eternal, immutable love to his own and is at the very foundation of the believer’s confidence, courage, zeal and assurance of salvation (Deut. 7:6–8; Rom. 8:28–39; Eph. 1:13–14; 1 Pet. 1:3–5, 18–20; 1 Jn. 4:9–10, 19).
What hope or certainty would attend salvation if left ultimately at the mutable, fallible disposal of sinful men? It is the biblical source of all boldness, encouragement and comfort in trial. All is ultimately in the hands of our loving, heavenly Father, who has ordained all things for our good. (Rom. 8:28–39; 1 Cor. 15:58; Gal. 6:7–9; Eph. 2:8–10; Phil. 1:29).
God grants sufficient grace for what he has purposed. Predestination, rightly understood, is a proper biblical incentive to holiness and responsible action. No effort is futile, no witness goes unnoticed or unblessed and no faithful service goes unrewarded (1 Cor. 15:58; Eph. 1:4; 2:8–10; Phil. 1:29; 2:12–13; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:1–2; 1 Jn. 2:28–3:3).
Whatever happens to believers in this life is in the context of God’s glorious and loving purpose⎯to conform us to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:28–31; Eph. 2:8–10; Phil. 2:12–16; 2 Cor. 3:17–18).
Whatever we think, do or say either brings us closer to this goal or necessarily puts us in the way of Divine correction, chastening and discipline (Heb. 12:4–8). How much time has been lost, energy expended, and trials endured needlessly simply because some have ignorantly thought that salvation was conversion⎯simply an event, an experience, the work of a moment⎯or that God would overlook sin in the lives of his own or that the Christian life was one of options. The truth of God’s purpose should govern our thinking, transform our lives, sanctify our motives, mitigate our suffering, determine every human relationship, and quicken our feeble efforts to live obediently and faithfully as Christians⎯as those who are infallibly being conformed to the image of Christ. Does your religious experience manifest God’s loving purpose of grace?
Thats clearly not at conversion, nor a ongoing experience.
God has chosen the destination of all those he ' knows ' Who After believing the Gospel , are justifued .
No....it says, whom, them; Not a destination but the people, whom, them
Foreknowledge is related to the Old Testament term “to know,” implying an intimate knowledge of and relation to its object (Cf. Gen. 4:1; Amos 3:2). The passages in the New Testament (Rom. 8:29; 11:2; 1 Pet. 1:2) all speak of persons who are foreknown, implying much more than mere prescience or omniscience—a relationship that is absolutely certain, personal and intimate. The only example of things being foreknown is clearly based on Divine determination (Acts 15:18). Because Divine election or foreordination to eternal life is grounded in the immutable character of God, it is infallible
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
The called are those who have been summoned by God… called…
Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)
Tenth, justification is inseparable from regeneration, adoption and sanctification. Those whom God quickens and to whom he imputes righteousness, he also infallibly makes righteous. Although he justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5), they do not remain so, but are both declared righteous [justification] and then made righteous [sanctification] (1 Cor. 1:30–31; 6:11
You have posted this a few times now, Let's take a look;
[It doesn't say ' in the process of becoming more and more like Jesus ' .]
What are you saying?
God saves someone and does not sanctify them?
DOES GOD ALLOW SINNERS WHO HE SAVES FROM THEIR SINS, DRIFT AWAY FROM jESUS?
It says Predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Divine predestination, as it pertains to one’s personal salvation, is a truth filled with glorious blessing, unfathomable love and great encouragement. Predestination is the fountain of all grace, giving to free and sovereign grace its glorious nature and distinct character, as it puts salvation in the loving, purposeful, omnipotent hands of a sovereign God (Rom. 11:5–6; Eph. 1:3–11; 2:1–10).
It is the expression of God’s sovereign, eternal, immutable love to his own and is at the very foundation of the believer’s confidence, courage, zeal and assurance of salvation (Deut. 7:6–8; Rom. 8:28–39; Eph. 1:13–14; 1 Pet. 1:3–5, 18–20; 1 Jn. 4:9–10, 19).
What hope or certainty would attend salvation if left ultimately at the mutable, fallible disposal of sinful men? It is the biblical source of all boldness, encouragement and comfort in trial. All is ultimately in the hands of our loving, heavenly Father, who has ordained all things for our good. (Rom. 8:28–39; 1 Cor. 15:58; Gal. 6:7–9; Eph. 2:8–10; Phil. 1:29).
God grants sufficient grace for what he has purposed. Predestination, rightly understood, is a proper biblical incentive to holiness and responsible action. No effort is futile, no witness goes unnoticed or unblessed and no faithful service goes unrewarded (1 Cor. 15:58; Eph. 1:4; 2:8–10; Phil. 1:29; 2:12–13; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:1–2; 1 Jn. 2:28–3:3).
Whatever happens to believers in this life is in the context of God’s glorious and loving purpose⎯to conform us to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:28–31; Eph. 2:8–10; Phil. 2:12–16; 2 Cor. 3:17–18).
Whatever we think, do or say either brings us closer to this goal or necessarily puts us in the way of Divine correction, chastening and discipline (Heb. 12:4–8). How much time has been lost, energy expended, and trials endured needlessly simply because some have ignorantly thought that salvation was conversion⎯simply an event, an experience, the work of a moment⎯or that God would overlook sin in the lives of his own or that the Christian life was one of options. The truth of God’s purpose should govern our thinking, transform our lives, sanctify our motives, mitigate our suffering, determine every human relationship, and quicken our feeble efforts to live obediently and faithfully as Christians⎯as those who are infallibly being conformed to the image of Christ. Does your religious experience manifest God’s loving purpose of grace?
Thats clearly not at conversion, nor a ongoing experience.
God has chosen the destination of all those he ' knows ' Who After believing the Gospel , are justifued .
No....it says, whom, them; Not a destination but the people, whom, them
Foreknowledge is related to the Old Testament term “to know,” implying an intimate knowledge of and relation to its object (Cf. Gen. 4:1; Amos 3:2). The passages in the New Testament (Rom. 8:29; 11:2; 1 Pet. 1:2) all speak of persons who are foreknown, implying much more than mere prescience or omniscience—a relationship that is absolutely certain, personal and intimate. The only example of things being foreknown is clearly based on Divine determination (Acts 15:18). Because Divine election or foreordination to eternal life is grounded in the immutable character of God, it is infallible
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
The called are those who have been summoned by God… called…
- according to His purpose (Ro 8:28-note)
- to salvation (Ro 8:30-note)
- saints by calling (1Cor 1:2)
- both Jews and Greeks (1Cor 1:24)
- having been called "with a holy" (2Timothy 1:9-note)
- heavenly calling (He 3:1-note)
- out of darkness into His marvelous light (1Pe 2:9-note)
- to walk worthy (Ep 4:1-note)
- by grace (Gal 1:6)
- not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles (Ro 9:24-note)
- through the "gospel" that we "may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2Th 2:14)
- and be brought "into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord" (1Cor 1:9)
- and return in triumph "with Him" at the end of this age (Re 17:14-note).
Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)
Tenth, justification is inseparable from regeneration, adoption and sanctification. Those whom God quickens and to whom he imputes righteousness, he also infallibly makes righteous. Although he justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5), they do not remain so, but are both declared righteous [justification] and then made righteous [sanctification] (1 Cor. 1:30–31; 6:11
pt2;
[There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)]
There are several types of the election of persons revealed in Scripture: national, messianic, ministerial and salvific:
first, there is the Divine choice of Israel to be the chosen people of God in a national sense, although only a small remnant of that nation was truly the spiritual people of God (Cf. Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; 10:14–15; Psa. 135:4; Isa. 41:8–9; 44:1; 45:4; Rom. 4:11–17; 9:6–9, 23–24; 11:1–6). Israel in its national election was typical of God’s elect spiritually chosen under the New or Gospel Covenant.
Second, there is the election of the Lord Jesus Christ as the “Elect” of God and true “Seed of Abraham.” In the choice of Abraham, God chose a nation, and in that nation, he chose an individual—the Messiah—and in that individual, he chose a true covenant people—believers (Isa. 42:1–7; Jer. 31:31–34; Luke 23:35; Gal. 3:15–16; Eph. 1:4–5; Heb. 8:8–13; 1 Pet. 2:4–9).
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Third, there is also an election unto service, as revealed in the choice of Moses, the Levites, various kings, etc. (Deut. 21:5; 2 Sam. 6:21; 1 Chron. 28:5; Psa. 78:67–68; 105:26; 106:23). This principle is retained in the New Testament with the Divine call to the gospel ministry (Acts 9:10–16; 13:2–4).
Finally, there is an eternal, personal election unto holiness, which includes the totality of salvation and derives from the eternal Covenant of Redemption and Grace, or the believer’s eternal union with Christ (Rom. 8:29–31; 11:5–6; Acts 13:48; Eph. 1:4–5, 11; 1 Pet. 1:1–2; 2 Pet. 1:10).
. There are two possible bases or foundations for Divine election: foreseen faith based on a bare foreknowledge [prescience], or a covenant love grounded in the Divine prerogative and expressed in free and sovereign grace. The Scriptures reveal that the ultimate cause of Divine election rests in the depths of Divine love and prerogative. God is never moved or motivated externally to himself. He is ever motivated from within his own self– consistency. Should he be mutable due to external causes, he would cease to be God, and be relative to his creation and subject to some nebulous, external absolute force such as chance or some impersonal fatalistic principle. The Scriptures reveal that the Divine choice of sinners to salvation rests in God alone. This is for the assurance and encouragement of the believer in his present experience—that he might be assured of the certain and infallible nature of his salvation, especially in the context of present trials and opposition (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; 10:14–15; Eph. 1:4–5; Rom. 8:28–39; 9:13– 14; 11:33–36).
From A Baptist Catechism with Commentary, by W.R. Downing, used by permission
[There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)]
There are several types of the election of persons revealed in Scripture: national, messianic, ministerial and salvific:
first, there is the Divine choice of Israel to be the chosen people of God in a national sense, although only a small remnant of that nation was truly the spiritual people of God (Cf. Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; 10:14–15; Psa. 135:4; Isa. 41:8–9; 44:1; 45:4; Rom. 4:11–17; 9:6–9, 23–24; 11:1–6). Israel in its national election was typical of God’s elect spiritually chosen under the New or Gospel Covenant.
Second, there is the election of the Lord Jesus Christ as the “Elect” of God and true “Seed of Abraham.” In the choice of Abraham, God chose a nation, and in that nation, he chose an individual—the Messiah—and in that individual, he chose a true covenant people—believers (Isa. 42:1–7; Jer. 31:31–34; Luke 23:35; Gal. 3:15–16; Eph. 1:4–5; Heb. 8:8–13; 1 Pet. 2:4–9).
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Third, there is also an election unto service, as revealed in the choice of Moses, the Levites, various kings, etc. (Deut. 21:5; 2 Sam. 6:21; 1 Chron. 28:5; Psa. 78:67–68; 105:26; 106:23). This principle is retained in the New Testament with the Divine call to the gospel ministry (Acts 9:10–16; 13:2–4).
Finally, there is an eternal, personal election unto holiness, which includes the totality of salvation and derives from the eternal Covenant of Redemption and Grace, or the believer’s eternal union with Christ (Rom. 8:29–31; 11:5–6; Acts 13:48; Eph. 1:4–5, 11; 1 Pet. 1:1–2; 2 Pet. 1:10).
. There are two possible bases or foundations for Divine election: foreseen faith based on a bare foreknowledge [prescience], or a covenant love grounded in the Divine prerogative and expressed in free and sovereign grace. The Scriptures reveal that the ultimate cause of Divine election rests in the depths of Divine love and prerogative. God is never moved or motivated externally to himself. He is ever motivated from within his own self– consistency. Should he be mutable due to external causes, he would cease to be God, and be relative to his creation and subject to some nebulous, external absolute force such as chance or some impersonal fatalistic principle. The Scriptures reveal that the Divine choice of sinners to salvation rests in God alone. This is for the assurance and encouragement of the believer in his present experience—that he might be assured of the certain and infallible nature of his salvation, especially in the context of present trials and opposition (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; 10:14–15; Eph. 1:4–5; Rom. 8:28–39; 9:13– 14; 11:33–36).
From A Baptist Catechism with Commentary, by W.R. Downing, used by permission
"throughfaith,
[We are only ' conformed to his image ' at Glorification not conversion . Unless your already walking through walls like Jesus ? We are predesined to inheritance eph 1.11 . , The Adoption Rom 8.23 , And to be conformed to His image AFTER we believe Rom 8 . 29]
Every believer is said to be “adopted” into the family of God, i.e., to become God’s child or “son” at conversion (Jn. 1:12–13; Rom. 8:12–14; Gal. 4:4–5; Eph. 1:5). This is a work of Divine grace in which God takes sinners to himself as his children, gives to them the Spirit of adoption, a foretaste of their final adoption in the glory of the resurrection (Rom. 8:23).
The English term “adoption” derives from the Latin adoptio (from ad, “to” and opto, “choose”). The term occurs five times in Scripture, all in the New Testament, and all in the writings of Paul: Rom. 8:15, 23; 9:4; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5. The Gk. term is huiothesia, from huios, “son,” and thesis, “a placing,” and literally means “to place as a son,” a process and ceremony upon one’s majority, which referred to natural sons within the family as well as to adopted sons from outside the family. One must take care not to read into the Scriptures either the bare Latin etymology, the legal, or the modern idea of adopting someone into the family as a child. The biblical terminology and its use designate this, but also much more.
Adoption, then, is a distinct, forensic, separate and gracious act of God which brings us into that filial relationship and intimacy as his beloved sons and children.
It is through adoption that we receive the Holy Spirit and the status of sonship (Rom. 8:14–17; Gal. 4:4–7). This forensic, gracious act of God—separate and distinct from regeneration and justification—stands at the foundation of our filial relationship to God as our Heavenly Father, and inclusively of our whole Christian experience. It is in the context of our adoption that we must consider our Father’s mercy and grace (Eph. 1:3–7; 2:18; 3:14–19), our relationship to him as “Father” (Gal. 4:5–7), our prayers to and communion with him (Matt. 6:9, 14–15; Lk. 11:2), his loving kindness, chastening and providential care (Rom. 8:14–17, 23, 28; Heb. 12:5–14), and that glorious presence, witness, seal and earnest of the Holy Spirit, who makes our Christian experience a reality, retains our glorious inheritance and preserves us unto his heavenly kingdom (Rom. 5:5; 8:15–16; Gal. 4:4–7; Eph. 1:13–14; 4:30; 2 Tim. 4:18; 1 Pet. 1:4).
ibid,bcwc
[We are only ' conformed to his image ' at Glorification not conversion . Unless your already walking through walls like Jesus ? We are predesined to inheritance eph 1.11 . , The Adoption Rom 8.23 , And to be conformed to His image AFTER we believe Rom 8 . 29]
Every believer is said to be “adopted” into the family of God, i.e., to become God’s child or “son” at conversion (Jn. 1:12–13; Rom. 8:12–14; Gal. 4:4–5; Eph. 1:5). This is a work of Divine grace in which God takes sinners to himself as his children, gives to them the Spirit of adoption, a foretaste of their final adoption in the glory of the resurrection (Rom. 8:23).
The English term “adoption” derives from the Latin adoptio (from ad, “to” and opto, “choose”). The term occurs five times in Scripture, all in the New Testament, and all in the writings of Paul: Rom. 8:15, 23; 9:4; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5. The Gk. term is huiothesia, from huios, “son,” and thesis, “a placing,” and literally means “to place as a son,” a process and ceremony upon one’s majority, which referred to natural sons within the family as well as to adopted sons from outside the family. One must take care not to read into the Scriptures either the bare Latin etymology, the legal, or the modern idea of adopting someone into the family as a child. The biblical terminology and its use designate this, but also much more.
Adoption, then, is a distinct, forensic, separate and gracious act of God which brings us into that filial relationship and intimacy as his beloved sons and children.
It is through adoption that we receive the Holy Spirit and the status of sonship (Rom. 8:14–17; Gal. 4:4–7). This forensic, gracious act of God—separate and distinct from regeneration and justification—stands at the foundation of our filial relationship to God as our Heavenly Father, and inclusively of our whole Christian experience. It is in the context of our adoption that we must consider our Father’s mercy and grace (Eph. 1:3–7; 2:18; 3:14–19), our relationship to him as “Father” (Gal. 4:5–7), our prayers to and communion with him (Matt. 6:9, 14–15; Lk. 11:2), his loving kindness, chastening and providential care (Rom. 8:14–17, 23, 28; Heb. 12:5–14), and that glorious presence, witness, seal and earnest of the Holy Spirit, who makes our Christian experience a reality, retains our glorious inheritance and preserves us unto his heavenly kingdom (Rom. 5:5; 8:15–16; Gal. 4:4–7; Eph. 1:13–14; 4:30; 2 Tim. 4:18; 1 Pet. 1:4).
ibid,bcwc
That wouldn't make any sense. Predestining is to know before hand. Our names were written in the book of life before the world began. Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, not after we were converted. Our being foreknown and predestined refers to foreordained, predetermine, marked out beforehand. Our predestining was decided by God prior to the creation of the earth.
God predestining a believer after conversion makes no sense
God predestining a believer after conversion makes no sense
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Eph 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Acts 4:27
“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.”
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Acts 4:27
“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.”
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God has been commanding men to do his will since Adam. That would be all men everywhere. Tragically few men anywhere actually follow these commands. Just because God issues commands does not imply that all men everywhere will follow them.........they never have thus far.
According to the Scriptures, only the chosen and elect follow Gods commands. This would include the elect holy angels.
According to the Scriptures, only the chosen and elect follow Gods commands. This would include the elect holy angels.
And that is not even the issue at all. Ever since the Gospel was preached, God has been commanding men to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But all have not obeyed the Gospel.
The point being made was that if election were indeed for salvation, then God could not fairly and justly command ALL MEN everywhere to repent. And that is not something that was always there either from the beginning. Paul told the Athenians that God NOW commands all men everywhere to repent. So this is since the commandment to preach the Gospel was given by Christ to the apostles.
Let's take a mundane example. Let's say you are a football coach and you have already selected certain individuals to be on the team. Therefore you cannot in all fairness ask all applicants to do what the team is expected to do, since many have already been rejected. That would be called bait and switch (just like Biden).
And God does not bait and switch. If he commands all men everywhere to repent, he also plans to save all men if all will repent. Which totally demolishes Calvinistic *unconditional election*.
The point being made was that if election were indeed for salvation, then God could not fairly and justly command ALL MEN everywhere to repent. And that is not something that was always there either from the beginning. Paul told the Athenians that God NOW commands all men everywhere to repent. So this is since the commandment to preach the Gospel was given by Christ to the apostles.
Let's take a mundane example. Let's say you are a football coach and you have already selected certain individuals to be on the team. Therefore you cannot in all fairness ask all applicants to do what the team is expected to do, since many have already been rejected. That would be called bait and switch (just like Biden).
And God does not bait and switch. If he commands all men everywhere to repent, he also plans to save all men if all will repent. Which totally demolishes Calvinistic *unconditional election*.
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