Sin and Glory

[throughfaith]

Romans 3.23
23For all have sinned
, and come short of the glory of God;
In this verse i see two problems .
Sin and Glorification.
Jesus has dealt with the ' sins ' part
He died for the sins of the Whole world ..Thats everyone and everything .
2 cor 5 .19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Mat 13 .44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. ( notice he buys the whole field )
Thus I believe limited atonement is unbiblical .
Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

. When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)
Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).
The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)
Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

There are two aspects to salvation: presence/effects of sin and lack of glorification. Nothing that eradicates sin glorifies the sinner. Both aspects must be resolved for salvation to occur. (Rom. 3:23; 5:8; 8:17-30)

Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept. It is therefore senseless to pit it against “died to make men savable” since the premise is false to start with. This false dichotomy indicates confusion about what saves.
Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13

 

[MyrtleTrees]

I believe God's Word teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the world - but that no sins are covered except for those who receive Him as Lord and Savior of their lives. The Bible says that those who reject Him will go to hell and will be there eternally. While God's people will live with God in heaven eternally, and all unbelievers will be barred from heaven.

Rev 21:27

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
KJV

 

[throughfaith]

I believe God's Word teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the world - but that no sins are covered except for those who receive Him as Lord and Savior of their lives. The Bible says that those who reject Him will go to hell and will be there eternally. While God's people will live with God in heaven eternally, and all unbelievers will be barred from heaven.

Rev 21:27

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
KJV

Do you not see the contradiction in what your saying . //believe God's Word teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the world - but that no sins are covered except for those who receive Him as Lord and Savior of their lives. /// That's a huge contradiction . Jesus has died for the sins of the world ,BUT? either He has or He hasn't?

 

[posthuman]

Do you not see the contradiction in what your saying . //believe God's Word teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the world - but that no sins are covered except for those who receive Him as Lord and Savior of their lives. /// That's a huge contradiction . Jesus has died for the sins of the world ,BUT? either He has or He hasn't?

Isaiah says, He tasted death for every man, but He bore the sins of 'many'

IMO that's the key. He died for all sin, but only bears those which are committed to Him in trust. His back is strong enough for all - but who puts their hope in Him? Not everyone.

 

[throughfaith]

Isaiah says, He tasted death for every man, but He bore the sins of 'many'

IMO that's the key. He died for all sin, but only bears those which are committed to Him in trust. His back is strong enough for all - but who puts their hope in Him? Not everyone.

The last part do you have any verses that say anything like what your saying ///He died for all sin, but only bears those which are committed to Him in trust. His back is strong enough for all - but who puts their hope in Him? Not everyone.///??

 

[oldethennew]

first of all, Jesus has priorities evidently, for He says very plainly that He =
calls-elects-choses whom He will as He wills, but also He speaks to some in parables
so that will NOT 'believe, hear, be converted' -
MATT. 13:13.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith,
By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive:
15.
For this people's heart is 'waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed';
lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart,
and should be converted, and I should heal them'.
16.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

here there is a for sure a 'separation'of whom God calls and whom He doe not'...

 

[posthuman]

The last part do you have any verses that say anything like what your saying ///He died for all sin, but only bears those which are committed to Him in trust. His back is strong enough for all - but who puts their hope in Him? Not everyone.///??

sure, here's some:

​

​

.. crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man​

(Hebrews 2:9)​

​

He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many​

(Isaiah 53:12)​

​

if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses​

(Mark 11:26)​

​

repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out​

(Acts 3:19)​

​

to Him all the prophets witness that,​

through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins​

(Acts 10:43)​

​

.. and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life​

(Matthew 25:46) ​

​

​

​

if you believe He bears all sin for everyone regardless of whether they put their faith in Him, you have a problem:
you either have universal salvation ((categorically contrary to many scriptures))
or you have God condemning to damnation people who have no sin accounted to them ((blaspheming His nature))

 

[oldethennew]

here's the problem -
'no body can completely understand the 'over-all-plan' of God...
but,
we have to understand at some point in our 'conversion' just what is our part -
we can never get a grip on this without The Holy Spirits help, and so begins
our 'new-journey of over-coming our 'old-man'......

 

[posthuman]

The last part do you have any verses that say anything like what your saying ///He died for all sin, but only bears those which are committed to Him in trust. His back is strong enough for all - but who puts their hope in Him? Not everyone.///??

to be succinct:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. ​

Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. ​

Instead, the wrath of God remains on him. ​

(John 3:36) ​

​

to say the wrath of God remains on people to whom God accounts no sin, is to call God evil, capricious & unjust.
therefore whoever rejects the Son, their sin is not forgiven; if their sin remains, Christ has not borne it.

██ ____________________​

 

[throughfaith]

sure, here's some:

​

​

.. crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man​

(Hebrews 2:9)​

​

He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many​

(Isaiah 53:12)​

​

if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses​

(Mark 11:26)​

​

repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out​

(Acts 3:19)​

​

to Him all the prophets witness that,​

through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins​

(Acts 10:43)​

​

.. and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life​

(Matthew 25:46) ​

​

​

​

if you believe He bears all sin for everyone regardless of whether they put their faith in Him, you have a problem:
you either have universal salvation ((categorically contrary to many scriptures))
or you have God condemning to damnation people who have no sin accounted to them ((blaspheming His nature))

2 cor 5.19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. This is saying the opposite to what your implying ?

 

[posthuman]

2 cor 5.19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. This is saying the opposite to what your implying ?

i'm just giving you scripture, friend, and it is not set against itself.
let it imply what it implies, the whole council of it.

He tasted death for every man, but not every man will be saved. the Way is narrow & few find it.
so 2 Cor. 5:19 is not saying all are saved, and it is not saying God condemns the guiltless. neither is possible.
God is just, and holy - and the condemnation is that Light came into the world but the world rejected Him

 

[posthuman]

2 cor 5.19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. This is saying the opposite to what your implying ?

the very next verse:

Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: ​

we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. ​

​

why bother imploring to 'be reconciled' if all are reconciled regardless of whether they have faith in Him or not?
if i can reject the Son and still have all my sins forgiven, the gospel is useless and faith is vain.

 

[throughfaith]

i'm just giving you scripture, friend, and it is not set against itself.
let it imply what it implies, the whole council of it.

He tasted death for every man, but not every man will be saved. the Way is narrow & few find it.
so 2 Cor. 5:19 is not saying all are saved, and it is not saying God damns anyone who is without guilt.
God is just, and holy - and the condemnation is that Light came into the world but the world rejected Him

He paid for everyone's sins ( reconciled the world ) So if sin is no longer the issue why do you think that means that people are automatically saved ?They won't be Glorifed . Why ? because they didn't recieve the Holy Spirit. why ? surely if Jesus paid all their sins they should automatically get the Holy Spirit at birth ? No . Why ? because to recieve the Holy Spirt , we need to recieve Jesus ( John 1.12 ) . Well surely if Jesus died for my sins ,don't I just recieve Jesus at birth ? no . Why ? because God said it pleases Him by the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe. ( 1 cor 1 .21 ) " oh ,I see . So your telling me that although Jesus reconclied the whole world by his death its not then automatic that every is saved " yes that's correct , because to ' recieve ' the atonement it is accessed by Faith ,because Faith is the point of access to it all . Why ? because without Faith it is impossible to please God . simple .
We are saved by the death , burial AND resurrection. Not by the death alone . The old testament saints certainly appreciated it even if no one else ever did .So no it was not pointless dying for the entire cosmos .

 

[oldethennew]

the Work of the Cross brings us into reconciliation to God, for our sins had separated us from God -
ROM. 5:10.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
ISA. 59:2.
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you,
that He will not hear.
11COR. 5:18.
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19.
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto hHmself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and has committed unto us The Word of reconciliation.
20.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us:
we pray you in Christ's stead, be you reconciled to God.
21.
For He has made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.!!!
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[throughfaith]

the very next verse:

Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: ​

we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. ​

​

why bother imploring to 'be reconciled' if all are reconciled regardless of whether they have faith in Him or not?
if i can reject the Son and still have all my sins forgiven, the gospel is useless and faith is vain.

Two aspects. 1) God has reconciled the world . In what sense ?By dealing with sin .
2) Be reconciled to God . In what sense ? Believe and recieve the ' reconciliation ' , recieve the Atonement. Its not automatically thrust upon you without first pleasing God . How ? The Gospel . 1 cor 1.21
Through Faith we access the grace into which we stand .

 

[throughfaith]

to be succinct:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. ​

Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. ​

Instead, the wrath of God remains on him. ​

(John 3:36) ​

​

to say the wrath of God remains on people to whom God accounts no sin, is to call God evil, capricious & unjust.
therefore whoever rejects the Son, their sin is not forgiven; if their sin remains, Christ has not borne it.

██ ____________________​

Jesus had not died for the sins of the world then had He ? Not until much later . chapter 19. 30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

 

[throughfaith]

Isaiah says, He tasted death for every man, but He bore the sins of 'many'

IMO that's the key. He died for all sin, but only bears those which are committed to Him in trust. His back is strong enough for all - but who puts their hope in Him? Not everyone.

He did more than taste death for every man . Heb 2.9 .
He reconciled not many, but the world to himself .
2cor 5.19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[throughfaith]

i'm just giving you scripture, friend, and it is not set against itself.
let it imply what it implies, the whole council of it.

He tasted death for every man, but not every man will be saved. the Way is narrow & few find it.
so 2 Cor. 5:19 is not saying all are saved, and it is not saying God condemns the guiltless. neither is possible.
God is just, and holy - and the condemnation is that Light came into the world but the world rejected Him

I know not all will be saved Just because He died for the sins of the world and reconciled the world . No without Glorification its not possible.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
If you are a believer you have already found Jesus . John 14 .6

 

[throughfaith]

first of all, Jesus has priorities evidently, for He says very plainly that He =
calls-elects-choses whom He will as He wills, but also He speaks to some in parables
so that will NOT 'believe, hear, be converted' -
MATT. 13:13.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith,
By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive:
15.
For this people's heart is 'waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed';
lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart,
and should be converted, and I should heal them'.
16.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

here there is a for sure a 'separation'of whom God calls and whom He doe not'...

The responsibility is on man to respond . He is response ..able .
For this people's heart is 'waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed';
lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart,
and should be converted, and I should heal them'.

 

[throughfaith]

sure, here's some:

​

​

.. crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man​

(Hebrews 2:9)​

​

He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many​

(Isaiah 53:12)​

​

if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses​

(Mark 11:26)​

​

repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out​

(Acts 3:19)​

​

to Him all the prophets witness that,​

through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins​

(Acts 10:43)​

​

.. and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life​

(Matthew 25:46) ​

​

​

​

if you believe He bears all sin for everyone regardless of whether they put their faith in Him, you have a problem:
you either have universal salvation ((categorically contrary to many scriptures))
or you have God condemning to damnation people who have no sin accounted to them ((blaspheming His nature))

You have an eclectic mixture of verses there . Some old testament, some new . Some to Israel ,ect ?