Sin and Glory

[throughfaith]

​

He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification​

(Romans 4:25)​

​

those He justified, He also glorified​

(Romans 8:30) ​

those He justified, He also glorified​

(Romans 8:30) Yes Paul can say this because he's already explained what we are predestined to . The Adoption .Rom 8.23 , Eph 1.5 , Eph 1.13-14 . Romans 8.28 From God's perspective ( outside of time ) All those that are Justified are as good as Glorified, because He has chosen ahead of time for all those in Christ will be Glorified. But not Chosen before they were born in eternity past ,by some arbitrary eternal decree ,to BE saved ,that the bible says nothing about .​

 

[throughfaith]

nothing limited about the strength of His back.
what's limited is what He actually carries on His back -- only those who by faith put their trust in Him.

see post #4
He died for all; He bore the sin of "many"
He tasted death for every man; He gave His life a ransom for "many"

2 cor 5.19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 2:14
King James Version


14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the WORLD " .

 

[throughfaith]

nothing limited about the strength of His back.
what's limited is what He actually carries on His back -- only those who by faith put their trust in Him.

see post #4
He died for all; He bore the sin of "many"
He tasted death for every man; He gave His life a ransom for "many"

What your saying does not address this ;
Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

. When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)
Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).
The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)
Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

There are two aspects to salvation: presence/effects of sin and lack of glorification. Nothing that eradicates sin glorifies the sinner. Both aspects must be resolved for salvation to occur. (Rom. 3:23; 5:8; 8:17-30)

Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept. It is therefore senseless to pit it against “died to make men savable” since the premise is false to start with. This false dichotomy indicates confusion about what saves.
Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13

 

[Locoponydirtman]

You're thinking too hard about it. All have sinned, and fallen short of the Glory of God. Is not a list of two things but one is the result of the other. Because we sin we fall short of the Glory of God. If man had never sinned man would not have fallen short of the Glory of God. We were created in the image of God and sin caused us to fall short.
So while Jesus did pay for the sins of the whole world, so those who don't actually receive it don't obtain because they reject it. Romans is quite clear.

 

[posthuman]

Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement.

Scripture says those He justified He also glorifies.

You're saying He doesn't. You're saying He condemns some of those He also justifies.

 

[throughfaith]

Scripture says those He justified He also glorifies.

You're saying He doesn't. You're saying He condemns some of those He also justifies.

No because we're not Justifed until AFTER we believe.
Rom 5
Therefore being justified by FAITH , we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[Guojing]

we have to, because (1) not all are saved and (2) God does not condemn the guiltless

At least you are more open than the usual anti-Calvinist group here in this forum who sidestepped that

I respect that.

 

[throughfaith]

At least you are more open than the usual anti-Calvinist group here in this forum who sidestepped that

I respect that.

God condems those that are not In Christ. Its no longer about sin or guilt. It cannot be because sin is dealt with .

 

[MyrtleTrees]

Do you not see the contradiction in what your saying . //believe God's Word teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the world - but that no sins are covered except for those who receive Him as Lord and Savior of their lives. /// That's a huge contradiction . Jesus has died for the sins of the world ,BUT? either He has or He hasn't?

I see no contradiction in the scriptures on the subject. Though am able to see why some people get confused by the Bible saying that Jesus died for the sins of the world.

1 John 2:2-4

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
KJV

If all people's sins were forgiven no one would end up in hell. But it's clear that some people will end up in hell. It helps to compare scriptures on subjects, to help make sure to understand subjects as correctly as possible.

Rev 20:15

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

John 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV

 

[Guojing]

Do you not see the contradiction in what your saying . //believe God's Word teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the world - but that no sins are covered except for those who receive Him as Lord and Savior of their lives. /// That's a huge contradiction . Jesus has died for the sins of the world ,BUT? either He has or He hasn't?

This view sums it up well

Another common misunderstanding about the doctrine of limited atonement is that it somehow lessens or diminishes the love of God for humanity. Yet, again, exactly the opposite is true. Of all of the doctrines of grace, the doctrine of limited atonement, when correctly understood, magnifies the love of God; it does not diminish it.

Limited atonement reinforces the intensive love of God that is revealed in the Bible. God loves His people with a love that saves them from their sin, as opposed to the love of the unlimited atonement view that sees God’s love as being more general in nature. In the unlimited atonement view, He loves everyone in general but saves no one in particular and, in fact, leaves the matter of their salvation up to them.

Which is more loving, a love that actually saves people or a love that makes salvation “possible” to those who are dead in trespasses and sins and unable to choose God?

 

[Guojing]

This view sums it up well

Another common misunderstanding about the doctrine of limited atonement is that it somehow lessens or diminishes the love of God for humanity. Yet, again, exactly the opposite is true. Of all of the doctrines of grace, the doctrine of limited atonement, when correctly understood, magnifies the love of God; it does not diminish it.

Limited atonement reinforces the intensive love of God that is revealed in the Bible. God loves His people with a love that saves them from their sin, as opposed to the love of the unlimited atonement view that sees God’s love as being more general in nature. In the unlimited atonement view, He loves everyone in general but saves no one in particular and, in fact, leaves the matter of their salvation up to them.

Which is more loving, a love that actually saves people or a love that makes salvation “possible” to those who are dead in trespasses and sins and unable to choose God?

Indeed, this idea of which love being greater is a constant theme I have noticed in a couple of movies. This theme was first seen in Superman 2. Superman fell in love with a human being, Lois Lane, and made the choice to give up his powers for her.

In the original scene (Richard Donner’s version), his father Joel chided him for putting the love he has for a specific human being, Lois, above his love for the entire human race. In Superman 2, that choice was seen as a mistake and Superman had to return back to the Father to restore his powers again.

 

[posthuman]

No because we're not Justifed until AFTER we believe.
Rom 5
Therefore being justified by FAITH , we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justified by His blood, Romans 5:9

That's the atonement, and that atonement only justifies the one who believes Him. The one who does not believe Him, not justified = not atoned for: therefore they will die in their sins.

He glorifies those He justifies, and those He justifies are those who believe, and He justifies them by His atoning blood.

 

[throughfaith]

This view sums it up well

Another common misunderstanding about the doctrine of limited atonement is that it somehow lessens or diminishes the love of God for humanity. Yet, again, exactly the opposite is true. Of all of the doctrines of grace, the doctrine of limited atonement, when correctly understood, magnifies the love of God; it does not diminish it.

Limited atonement reinforces the intensive love of God that is revealed in the Bible. God loves His people with a love that saves them from their sin, as opposed to the love of the unlimited atonement view that sees God’s love as being more general in nature. In the unlimited atonement view, He loves everyone in general but saves no one in particular and, in fact, leaves the matter of their salvation up to them.

Which is more loving, a love that actually saves people or a love that makes salvation “possible” to those who are dead in trespasses and sins and unable to choose God?

My argument is not about which system makes God look the most loving or the ' fairness ' arguement. Its on what the bible actually says .
//////Which is more loving, a love that actually saves people or a love that makes salvation “possible” to those who are dead in trespasses and sins and unable to choose God?////_/ see this hangs on the assumption that the T in TULIP is true . All of the issues are around this 'dilemma ' Augustine first introduced to the point even non calvinists question it . Calvinistic thinking has permeated most traditions and denominations that they don't realise .

 

[posthuman]

IMO you're making a very clear and simple thing convoluted and confused for the sake of attacking reformed theology on the point of limited atonement. That's ironic because you are actually using limited atonement to do so, only trying to avoid using the term. As Guojing and i both pointed out tho, all of us have to accept limited atonement in some form. If we don't then we're calling God evil for condemning the innocent.

What you could really argue is God's intentions. I am told that some people think Christ only died for His elect, with no intention of reconciling all to Himself. I've never actually heard anyone argue that, tho - I've only heard arminians accuse others of it.
That's easily dismissed tho because Hebrews 2:9 for example explicitly says He died for every man.

 

[throughfaith]

Justified by His blood, Romans 5:9

That's the atonement, and that atonement only justifies the one who believes Him. The one who does not believe Him, not justified = not atoned for: therefore they will die in their sins.

He glorifies those He justifies, and those He justifies are those who believe, and He justifies them by His atoning blood.

This is silly. Take away ' limited atonement ' and all these mental gymnastics are not needed . We are justifed by faith . Of course without the blood ' applied ' no we all would not be .
makes more sense when you read the whole chapter .without Calvinistic glasses on though .
1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

 

[posthuman]

Romans says a number of things about justification; all of them are true.
here are a few:

• doing the law results in justification
  • Romans 2:13
• God is axiomatically justified & reality attests to it
  • Romans 3:4
• no flesh is justified by doing the law
  • Romans 3:20
• justification is by grace through the redemption in Christ
  • Romans 3:24
• God justifies the one who has faith in Jesus
  • Romans 3:26, 28, 30
• God justifies the ungodly, counting faith as righteousness
  • Romans 4:5
• justification is by the death & resurrection of Christ
  • Romans 4:25
• justification is by faith
  • Romans 5:1
• justification is by His blood
  • Romans 5:9
• justification is the free gift of His righteous act
  • Romans 5:18
• whom God predestined, He calls; whom God calls, He justifies; whom God justifies, He glorifies
  • Romans 8:30
• no one can condemn the ones God justifies
  • Romans 8:33
    

 

[throughfaith]

Romans says a number of things about justification; all of them are true.
here are a few:

• doing the law results in justification
  • Romans 2:13
• God is axiomatically justified & reality attests to it
  • Romans 3:4
• no flesh is justified by doing the law
  • Romans 3:20
• justification is by grace through the redemption in Christ
  • Romans 3:24
• God justifies the one who has faith in Jesus
  • Romans 3:26, 28, 30
• God justifies the ungodly, counting faith as righteousness
  • Romans 4:5
• justification is by the death & resurrection of Christ
  • Romans 4:25
• justification is by faith
  • Romans 5:1
• justification is by His blood
  • Romans 5:9
• justification is the free gift of His righteous act
  • Romans 5:18
• whom God predestined, He calls; whom God calls, He justifies; whom God justifies, He glorifies
  • Romans 8:30
• no one can condemn the ones God justifies
  • Romans 8:33

You missed 5.11

 

[throughfaith]

Romans says a number of things about justification; all of them are true.
here are a few:

• doing the law results in justification
  • Romans 2:13
• God is axiomatically justified & reality attests to it
  • Romans 3:4
• no flesh is justified by doing the law
  • Romans 3:20
• justification is by grace through the redemption in Christ
  • Romans 3:24
• God justifies the one who has faith in Jesus
  • Romans 3:26, 28, 30
• God justifies the ungodly, counting faith as righteousness
  • Romans 4:5
• justification is by the death & resurrection of Christ
  • Romans 4:25
• justification is by faith
  • Romans 5:1
• justification is by His blood
  • Romans 5:9
• justification is the free gift of His righteous act
  • Romans 5:18
• whom God predestined, He calls; whom God calls, He justifies; whom God justifies, He glorifies
  • Romans 8:30
• no one can condemn the ones God justifies
  • Romans 8:33

23¶Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, IF we BELIEVE on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25Who was delivered for our offences, ( The whole world and was raised again for our justification. The whole world .

 

[throughfaith]

Romans says a number of things about justification; all of them are true.
here are a few:

• doing the law results in justification
  • Romans 2:13
• God is axiomatically justified & reality attests to it
  • Romans 3:4
• no flesh is justified by doing the law
  • Romans 3:20
• justification is by grace through the redemption in Christ
  • Romans 3:24
• God justifies the one who has faith in Jesus
  • Romans 3:26, 28, 30
• God justifies the ungodly, counting faith as righteousness
  • Romans 4:5
• justification is by the death & resurrection of Christ
  • Romans 4:25
• justification is by faith
  • Romans 5:1
• justification is by His blood
  • Romans 5:9
• justification is the free gift of His righteous act
  • Romans 5:18
• whom God predestined, He calls; whom God calls, He justifies; whom God justifies, He glorifies
  • Romans 8:30
• no one can condemn the ones God justifies
  • Romans 8:33

1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: ( after we believe )
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God
( Faith is the access point to the grace . The bridge is there we just step on it ,so to speak )

8But God commendeth his love toward us, ( the whole world ) in that, while we were yet sinners,( the whole world ) Christ died for us.( the whole world )

18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. ( there to be received by faith )

 

[throughfaith]

Romans says a number of things about justification; all of them are true.
here are a few:

• doing the law results in justification
  • Romans 2:13
• God is axiomatically justified & reality attests to it
  • Romans 3:4
• no flesh is justified by doing the law
  • Romans 3:20
• justification is by grace through the redemption in Christ
  • Romans 3:24
• God justifies the one who has faith in Jesus
  • Romans 3:26, 28, 30
• God justifies the ungodly, counting faith as righteousness
  • Romans 4:5
• justification is by the death & resurrection of Christ
  • Romans 4:25
• justification is by faith
  • Romans 5:1
• justification is by His blood
  • Romans 5:9
• justification is the free gift of His righteous act
  • Romans 5:18
• whom God predestined, He calls; whom God calls, He justifies; whom God justifies, He glorifies
  • Romans 8:30
• no one can condemn the ones God justifies
  • Romans 8:33

28¶And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Free gift unto justification of life to all men must be received. It’s not “universalism” unless irresistible grace supplants the biblical requirement to receive. (Rom. 5:11-18; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

Unbelief condemns a person, not because it is an unforgiven sin, but because it is the exclusive point of access to the grace. (Rom. 5:2)

Nobody was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. Nobody was “in Christ” before they were placed in Christ during their lifetime. (Eph. 1:4; 2:12; Rom. 12:5; 6:3: 16:7; 1 Cor. 12:13, 27)

God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)