(Jesuit) Preterism versus John 14

[Corban]

I'm going to drop a 10 Megaton Truth Bomb and the collateral damage is going to be devastating, so please take cover....

Q. What is in Paradise?
A. "To him, that overcometh, I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the PARADISE of my God ..." -- Revelation 2:7 KJV

Q. Where does the Tree of Life stand?
A. "And...on either side of the River (of Life), was there the Tree of Life." -- Revelation 22:2 KJV

Q. From where does the River of Life flow?
A. "And he showed me a pure River of Water of Life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the THRONE OF GOD...." -- Revelation 22:1 KJV

Please, let's all stop with this silliness about Paradise being down somewhere under the Earth. PARADISE IS UP, NOT DOWN, and neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that Friday. The comma is in the WRONG place. The text should read, "I say unto you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." IOW, "I say unto you today while I'm hanging here looking like anything but the Savior of the world, you will be with Me in Paradise."

You know brother, you show a remarkable ability to add and subtract from scripture. Here, you ignore a simple order of things in scripture to make a non existent point. When Moses made the Tabernacle, he was instructed to copy the one in heaven. So also David. When he prepared the plans for Solomon's Temple, he did so according to God's plan. And that this heavenly Tabernacle really exists is shown in that our Lord ascended to present His blood to the Father. Now, scripture plainly says that there was a Tabernacle in heaven, and plainly that Moses constructed one. But by your logic, there is no Tabernacle on earth because scripture only addresses one.

But maybe you don't. But you sure do this annulling of scripture with Paradise. Our Lord Jesus promised the thief on the cross who called on Him, to be TOGETHER in Paradise THAT DAY. This was probably about 2 p.m. Jesus died at 3 p.m, but the thief lingered until they broke his legs. The reason was that they had to get the bodies off the cross before sunset by Law. And both Matthew 12:40 and Ephesians 4:8-9 tell us that our Lord DESCENDED to the heart of the earth. Acts Chapter 2:27-34 makes it clear that Hades is the place Jesus went to and ROSE out of Hades in resurrection. And John 20:17 our Lord Himself says in John 20:17 that He had NOT YET ascended to His Father, even after resurrection. If a sixth-grader was presented with that sequence, he would say that:

1. For the thief to be TOGETHER with Jesus before sunset, he died and went to the same place as Jesus
2. Jesus must have gone to Hades under the earth
3. Jesus and the thief must have had intelligent consciousnesses in Hades to be able to experience TOGETHERNESS
4. That Paradise is in HADES under the earth
5. That Paradise that two dead men went to did NOT have the Tree of Life in it since it is the "place of the dead"

And the sixth-grader would also tell you off because the Paradise of Hades is "Paradise", but the REWARD for the overcomers in Revelation 2:7 is the "Paradise OF GOD", not the Paradise of Hades which is the Paradise of DEAD MEN. So not only is there a real Tabernacle in heaven, AND there was a real tabernacle ON EARTH, but there is a Paradise OF GOD in heaven, AND a Paradise for the DEAD in Hades. There is one more thing the sixth-grader would say if he listened to your logic. It would be that you surpass the Jesuits for obfuscating the facts.

You have voiced your objections. Fine. We know you don't agree with me, and you are willing to add and subtract from scripture to box your variation of the matter through. We also know that you have yet to enter into debate about my argument in posting # 13, AND we know that you refused to even read it when I pointed it out. You have no intention of discovering the truth. Then, in every further posting you display a tendency to cover up what scripture plainly reveals. And finally, after you were invited to give your exegesis of John 14, you ignored this invitation. Let the reader judge if you are a worthy judge of the Jesuits.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm afraid you are way off brother. Jesus, born of the Holy Spirit and not via Adam, did not have corruptible flesh. Even in the grave He saw no corruption. Acts 2:27-32:

27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
....
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses."

I Agree 100%

Couldn't be any simpler than that, will the individual correct their error?

 

[Truth7t7]

You know brother, you show a remarkable ability to add and subtract from scripture. Here, you ignore a simple order of things in scripture to make a non existent point. When Moses made the Tabernacle, he was instructed to copy the one in heaven. So also David. When he prepared the plans for Solomon's Temple, he did so according to God's plan. And that this heavenly Tabernacle really exists is shown in that our Lord ascended to present His blood to the Father. Now, scripture plainly says that there was a Tabernacle in heaven, and plainly that Moses constructed one. But by your logic, there is no Tabernacle on earth because scripture only addresses one.

But maybe you don't. But you sure do this annulling of scripture with Paradise. Our Lord Jesus promised the thief on the cross who called on Him, to be TOGETHER in Paradise THAT DAY. This was probably about 2 p.m. Jesus died at 3 p.m, but the thief lingered until they broke his legs. The reason was that they had to get the bodies off the cross before sunset by Law. And both Matthew 12:40 and Ephesians 4:8-9 tell us that our Lord DESCENDED to the heart of the earth. Acts Chapter 2:27-34 makes it clear that Hades is the place Jesus went to and ROSE out of Hades in resurrection. And John 20:17 our Lord Himself says in John 20:17 that He had NOT YET ascended to His Father, even after resurrection. If a sixth-grader was presented with that sequence, he would say that:

1. For the thief to be TOGETHER with Jesus before sunset, he died and went to the same place as Jesus
2. Jesus must have gone to Hades under the earth
3. Jesus and the thief must have had intelligent consciousnesses in Hades to be able to experience TOGETHERNESS
4. That Paradise is in HADES under the earth
5. That Paradise that two dead men went to did NOT have the Tree of Life in it since it is the "place of the dead"

And the sixth-grader would also tell you off because the Paradise of Hades is "Paradise", but the REWARD for the overcomers in Revelation 2:7 is the "Paradise OF GOD", not the Paradise of Hades which is the Paradise of DEAD MEN. So not only is there a real Tabernacle in heaven, AND there was a real tabernacle ON EARTH, but there is a Paradise OF GOD in heaven, AND a Paradise for the DEAD in Hades. There is one more thing the sixth-grader would say if he listened to your logic. It would be that you surpass the Jesuits for obfuscating the facts.

You have voiced your objections. Fine. We know you don't agree with me, and you are willing to add and subtract from scripture to box your variation of the matter through. We also know that you have yet to enter into debate about my argument in posting # 13, AND we know that you refused to even read it when I pointed it out. You have no intention of discovering the truth. Then, in every further posting you display a tendency to cover up what scripture plainly reveals. And finally, after you were invited to give your exegesis of John 14, you ignored this invitation. Let the reader judge if you are a worthy judge of the Jesuits.

I Agree 100%

7th Day Adventism's (Soul Sleep) that (Phoneman-777) promotes is a false teaching, right along with false prophetess Ellen G. White, and her self proclaimed 2,000+ visions from God.

Your use of the thief on the cross and Jesus in paradise strongly disproves (Soul Sleep), no further comment needed.

 

[Absolutely]

You really can't say (Abraham's Bosom) isn't heaven, it appears those that died in faith are comforted, and in the spiritual that would be with the Lord.

Luke 16:19-31KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

You just made a case for a place of torment in heaven with a gulf separating the two but they can see each other.

Nope.

Not even remotely possible.

It means exactly what it says.

 

[Absolutely]

You really can't say (Abraham's Bosom) isn't heaven, it appears those that died in faith are comforted, and in the spiritual that would be with the Lord.

Luke 16:19-31KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

You are basing all on conjecture saying paradise had to be in heaven.

 

[Absolutely]

I'm going to drop a 10 Megaton Truth Bomb and the collateral damage is going to be devastating, so please take cover....

Q. What is in Paradise?
A. "To him, that overcometh, I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the PARADISE of my God ..." -- Revelation 2:7 KJV

Q. Where does the Tree of Life stand?
A. "And...on either side of the River (of Life), was there the Tree of Life." -- Revelation 22:2 KJV

Q. From where does the River of Life flow?
A. "And he showed me a pure River of Water of Life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the THRONE OF GOD...." -- Revelation 22:1 KJV

Please, let's all stop with this silliness about Paradise being down somewhere under the Earth. PARADISE IS UP, NOT DOWN, and neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that Friday. The comma is in the WRONG place. The text should read, "I say unto you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." IOW, "I say unto you today while I'm hanging here looking like anything but the Savior of the world, you will be with Me in Paradise."

Ahem....it pays to council with Gods entire word.

1 Pete 3

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

You were sayin?

Reframe that one for us

 

[Truth7t7]

You are basing all on conjecture saying paradise had to be in heaven.

It's my opinion God is omnipresent, we as minuted humans really don't have a clue where heaven is?

I'm fully ready to be persuaded, give me your best three verses?

 

[Truth7t7]

Ahem....it pays to council with Gods entire word.

1 Pete 3

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

You were sayin?

Reframe that one for us

Do you believe in a literal hell in torment, 7th day Adventist don't?

Do you believe in the 7th day Adventist Investigative judgement below, this is what Ellen G White claims God gave her in a vision, yes she claimed 2,000+ visions from God, written in several volumes, sorta like the Mormons book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price.

That teaching below was the back up plan after the failed prediction of the second coming in Oct 22, 1844

Wikipedia: Investigative Judgement
Seventh-day Adventists believe that texts such as Hebrews 8:1-2 teach that the two-compartment design of the earthly sanctuary built by Moses, was in fact a model patterned after the Heavenly Sanctuary "which the Lord pitched not man" Hebrews 8:2 (NASB). They believe that statements in Hebrews 7:17-28 as well as statements found in Hebrews chapters 8 and 9, reveal that Christ entered the first phase of his Heavenly ministry (in the Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary) as the High Priest of humanity after his bodily resurrection and ascension into heaven. According to this view the 2300 days (years) found in Daniel 8:13-14 point to the date when Christ's Most Holy Place ministry in Heaven would start. This is the event typified by the Day of Atonement described in Leviticus 16 and in Leviticus 23:26-32. The Investigative Judgment doctrine states that in 1844 Christ moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in Heaven as described in Daniel 8:13-14, and that this began the judgment described in Daniel 7:9-10.[4]

 

[Absolutely]

""Do you believe in a literal hell in torment, 7th day Adventist don't?""

The rich man was in a place of torment no matter what any denomination teaches

 

[Absolutely]

It's my opinion God is omnipresent, we as minuted humans really don't have a clue where heaven is?

I'm fully ready to be persuaded, give me your best three verses?

Jesus did.
He said it was up

 

[Corban]

I Agree 100%

Couldn't be any simpler than that, will the individual correct their error?

I Agree 100%

7th Day Adventism's (Soul Sleep) that (Phoneman-777) promotes is a false teaching, right along with false prophetess Ellen G. White, and her self proclaimed 2,000+ visions from God.

Your use of the thief on the cross and Jesus in paradise strongly disproves (Soul Sleep), no further comment needed.

Thank you for your comments. Go well brother/sister.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Thank you for the exchange. God bless.

I appreciate the opportunity to share my views, as well as examine yours, as well. One thing is sure and that is time will tell, but in the meantime, please allow me to leave this with you: If you are right, then praise God for it...

however...if the future brings to us a world of economic, environmental, social, and religious chaos in which a "Christ" figure appears on Earth to walk among us and proceeds to preach a solution which is found in the enacting of religious laws and a collective "revival" (that is rooted in self-preservation, not love for God) which includes persecution and an eventual death decree for those who stick with the Ten Commandments instead of going along with the crowd after the apostate commandments of this "Christ", I urge you to seek out the nearest Adventist and ask him how in the world did he know ahead of time and listen intently as he opens his Bible to you.

 

[GaryA]

... if the future brings to us a world of economic, environmental, social, and religious chaos in which a "Christ" figure appears on Earth to walk among us and proceeds to preach a solution which is found in the enacting of religious laws and a collective "revival" (that is rooted in self-preservation, not love for God) which includes persecution and an eventual death decree for those who stick with the Ten Commandments instead of going along with the crowd after the apostate commandments of this "Christ", I urge you to seek out the nearest Adventist and ask him how in the world did he know ahead of time and listen intently as he opens his Bible to you.

know what exactly ahead of time... ?

 

[Corban]

I appreciate the opportunity to share my views, as well as examine yours, as well. One thing is sure and that is time will tell, but in the meantime, please allow me to leave this with you: If you are right, then praise God for it...

however...if the future brings to us a world of economic, environmental, social, and religious chaos in which a "Christ" figure appears on Earth to walk among us and proceeds to preach a solution which is found in the enacting of religious laws and a collective "revival" (that is rooted in self-preservation, not love for God) which includes persecution and an eventual death decree for those who stick with the Ten Commandments instead of going along with the crowd after the apostate commandments of this "Christ", I urge you to seek out the nearest Adventist and ask him how in the world did he know ahead of time and listen intently as he opens his Bible to you.

I hear you. Go well brother.

 

[Phoneman-777]

know what exactly ahead of time... ?

If you stick around long enough, you'll see.

 

[Kolistus]

When will Christians comprehend that Hebrew Chiastic Structure involves rhyming, not words, but ideas?

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,​

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him."​

​

Paul rhymes "died" with "sleep" and "rose again" with "bring with Him" (meaning "bring forth from the tomb as Jesus was brought forth").

Saints do not go to heaven at death, they go to sleep in the grave and await the resurrection. Please believe the wisest man in the world who ever lived when he said, "The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything."

You are focusing on verses talking about the body, yes we know the body stays in the grave until the resurrection.
Take a look at Revelation 4&5, people in HEAVEN prior to the second coming.

Absent from the body, present with the Lord, the rich man and Lazarus, there are so many verses proving this. You are just taking verses about our bodies and cramming it into soul and spirit as well.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You are focusing on verses talking about the body, yes we know the body stays in the grave until the resurrection.
Take a look at Revelation 4&5, people in HEAVEN prior to the second coming.

Absent from the body, present with the Lord, the rich man and Lazarus, there are so many verses proving this. You are just taking verses about our bodies and cramming it into soul and spirit as well.

Did not God resurrect "many of the bodies of the saints which slept" at the Crucifixion? They are a kind of "firstfruits" of the Resurrection of the Just, which is clearly at the end of time. They are not dead people walking around heaven, they are resurrected people.

If you focus on what the wisest man who ever lived had to say on this subject instead of popular misconceptions, then it would become crystal clear that the dead don't know anything, don't have any memories, don't possess knowledge or wisdom, don't lay plans, don't endeavor, and don't have any emotions (I could also point to other prophets who said things like the dead do not praise God) -- Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV.

Is there some reason why Solomon's words are not applicable to our day? Some appeal to the error of Dispensationalism in an attempt to claim that after the Cross, we now get to go straight to heaven or hell, which opens up a new can of worms, such as "Why is David not in heaven? Why does Peter tell us that the wicked are "RESERVED" to the day of Judgment "to be punished", if there are yet now being punished?"

 

[GaryA]

@Phoneman-777

Did you read post #90 ?

 

[Kolistus]

Did not God resurrect "many of the bodies of the saints which slept" at the Crucifixion? They are a kind of "firstfruits" of the Resurrection of the Just, which is clearly at the end of time. They are not dead people walking around heaven, they are resurrected people.

If you focus on what the wisest man who ever lived had to say on this subject instead of popular misconceptions, then it would become crystal clear that the dead don't know anything, don't have any memories, don't possess knowledge or wisdom, don't lay plans, don't endeavor, and don't have any emotions (I could also point to other prophets who said things like the dead do not praise God) -- Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV.

Is there some reason why Solomon's words are not applicable to our day? Some appeal to the error of Dispensationalism in an attempt to claim that after the Cross, we now get to go straight to heaven or hell, which opens up a new can of worms, such as "Why is David not in heaven? Why does Peter tell us that the wicked are "RESERVED" to the day of Judgment "to be punished", if there are yet now being punished?"

Yeah there is a lot of reasons why the words of Solomon do not apply here. First, Solomon is writing about things "under the sun" he says that at the beginning.

The same book also does say the spirit returns to the Lord who gave it: Ecclesiastes 12:7

I could just ask you as well, why does not Revelation 4&5 settle it for you? Or the rich man and Lazarus. Don't play that game with me.

Again I already told you the problem, you are reading Ecclesiates 9:5, a writing by Solomon about things under the sun, things pertaining to human bodies and assuming the same is the case for our spirit and soul

Man is triune just like God,. Body soul and spirit.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Did not God resurrect "many of the bodies of the saints which slept" at the Crucifixion? They are a kind of "firstfruits" of the Resurrection of the Just, which is clearly at the end of time. They are not dead people walking around heaven, they are resurrected people.

There is some question, when reading through the text of Matthew 27:50-53, as to "which day" (or time-slot) that the bold occurred: "many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of their graves AFTER His resurrection ..."

When you read through those four verses, how are you reading it (to have occurred--in what order)?

Recall, verse 50 says, "Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up [*G863 - aphiémi ] the spirit" (meaning, His spirit... whereas, His body would soon be heading to the grave/sepulchre). <--So this part is what occurred on the day of His crucifixion, obviously.

* "863 aphíēmi (from 575 /apó, "away from" and hiēmi, "send") – properly, send away; release (discharge)." [referring to His spirit... His human spirit]


...but it is difficult to tell just when (in the chronology) the "many bodies of the saints... arose" because it goes on to say, "And came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection" (which we know was three days later, not the same day as His crucifixion)... so if they "arose" on a different day than when they "came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection" (3 days later), then can they really be considered "a kind of 'firstfruit' of the resurrection [of the just]," or would they be considered the same as, say, Lazarus having been raised from the dead (which also took place "before" Jesus' Resurrection on the third day after His crucifixion, see--He/Jesus Himself being called "firstfruit of those having fallen asleep" in 1Cor15:20 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-20.htm )? IOW, we do not see "the many bodies of the saints which slept arose" being referred to as "firstfruit," any more than Lazarus was, when he was raised.

I tend believe the text (these 4 verses) are written as they are (as I tried to point out, above), to make the point that WHILE Jesus did His "I ascend [active]" thing (what He told MM in John 20:17--which I believe He did THAT VERY DAY, *ON Firstfruit* fulfilling Lev23:10-12!), pointing out that which these "many" did, by contrast (-->"went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"--IOW, they did not do what Jesus Himself DID do, after His resurrection [i.e. ascend, bodily]).