What 3 verses say that a lost man cannot believe the gospel?
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I believe the foundation for TULIP is Unconditional Election (according to the Westminster Confession). It starts out by telling us that God has decreed some for salvation and others for damnation.
1. Which means that all men cannot be saved.
2. Which means that Christ died only for the elect.
3. Which means that only the elect can believe the Gospel and be saved.
4. Which means that the non-elect are unable to believe the Gospel.
None of this is according to Scripture. All is purely man-made doctrine.
Repentance and salvation are seperable in timeReaching out because their heart is convicted of sin and of the hope of the mercy of God, it seems. Who convicts?
I'm not sure belief and regeneration are seperable in time.
When does an egg become a chicken?
I really have little time today will get back later. Not as tho I expect we'll settle a thousand years old puzzle in a few days ha - both sides have their cases, and both are made for respect of God. It's a dim glass we see through, we gotta remember, and not become bitter towards each other
Regeneration is a function of the holy spirit just like sanctification.
Step one putting you on the path to godliness
You might say regeneration itself is seperable in time
I would say that belief/faith remains dead and worthless until it is united with obedience to it, that being the acts/steps/works of faith.
Baby making version of salvation
But the best way to understand it all is through creation itself and the biblical descriptions of conception, full formation of Christ, rebirth, infancy, childhood and maturity into the fullness of the stature of Christ Jesus and glorification into the form of Christ in heaven
As a whole this is salvation past present and future
The Home Depot version of the salvation.
Salvation is something we currently posses in hope like a contract of sale of our home with the down payment of the Spirit of hope for the purposes of damage repairs and removal of all your crap and making it ready for His future taking possession of us as his own property and doing the total remodel.
To whom are you speaking there please?
No, I do not reject it.
One of the best descriptions of the letter in Corinth, Romans, is found in The Book. I'll share here so as to explain why I don't reject it. And why in my view it does not refute for me what some call OSAS but rather confirms it.
The following is copied from, The Book.
Author: Paul the apostle
Place. Corinth
Date A.D 58 or 59
Content: When Paul was in Corinth on his third missionary journey, he was planing to go to Rome, never having been there before. Paul wrote this letter to introduce himself to the church and to give them a summary of Christian teachings. Romans is the best outlined of Paul's existing letters. It begins with showing that every person has rebelled against God and is cut off from him. But God in his mercy stepped in, while we were still set against him, and opened the way back to himself (5:8) Paul then deals with the place of the Jews in God's plan (9-11), concluding with a series of ethical teachings.
Theme: God's goodness and kindness toward us are the focus of this book. God is seen to be the great and good God of the universe. He cannot relax the laws of the universe because they come out of his very nature. But consistent with those laws, he has devised a plan to bring people into union with him in spite of their evil and imperfections. He sent his Son from heaven to die for the sins of the world. Now anyone who trusts in Jesus will be saved from evil (10:9) and be given the power of God to live a good life. Nothing can separate a believer from God and his love. (8:38-39)
“Because you have so little faith,” He answered. “For truly I tell you, if you have faith
the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’
and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
I don't see what you are saying about that verse, in that verse
Luke 17:6 He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard ...
... And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this
mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and it would obey you
Matthew 17:20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly ...
... "Because your faith is so small," He replied; "for I solemnly declare to you that
if you have faith like a mustard-seed, you shall say to this mountain
Mustard seed like faith would make you able to do those things.
How may times over does that little seed increase in size as it comes into the fullness of its size?
This is your increase into the likeness and power of Christ Jesus if you can believe in how great the salvation is that is in you.
... And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this
mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and it would obey you
Matthew 17:20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly ...
... "Because your faith is so small," He replied; "for I solemnly declare to you that
if you have faith like a mustard-seed, you shall say to this mountain
Mustard seed like faith would make you able to do those things.
How may times over does that little seed increase in size as it comes into the fullness of its size?
This is your increase into the likeness and power of Christ Jesus if you can believe in how great the salvation is that is in you.
Monergism. A man made fiction wherein it teaches God created people so that he could play with himself eternally.
Chiasmus Definition
Chiasmus is a rhetorical device in which two or more clauses are balanced against each other by the reversal of their structures in order to produce an artistic effect. Let us try to understand chiasmus with the help of an example: “Never let a Fool Kiss You or a Kiss Fool You.”
Agreed.“Because you have so little faith,” He answered. “For truly I tell you, if you have faith
the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’
and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
I don't see what you are saying about that verse, in that verse
NET Version
Luke 17:6 So[a] the Lord replied,[b] “If[c] you had faith the size of[d] a mustard seed, you could say to this black mulberry[e] tree, ‘Be pulled out by the roots and planted in the sea,’[f] and it would obey[g] you.
Footnotes
- Luke 17:6 tn Here δέ (de) has been translated as “so” to indicate the implied result of previous action(s) in the narrative.
- Luke 17:6 tn Grk “said.”
- Luke 17:6 tn This is a mixed condition, with ἄν (an) in the apodosis.
- Luke 17:6 tn Grk “faith as,” “faith like.”
- Luke 17:6 sn A black mulberry tree is a deciduous fruit tree that grows about 20 ft (6 m) tall and has black juicy berries. This tree has an extensive root system, so to pull it up would be a major operation.
- Luke 17:6 tn The passives here (ἐκριζώθητι and φυτεύθητι, ekrizōthēti and phuteuthēti) are probably a circumlocution for God performing the action (the so-called divine passive, see ExSyn 437-38). The issue is not the amount of faith (which in the example is only very tiny), but its presence, which can accomplish impossible things. To cause a tree to be uprooted and planted in the sea is impossible. The expression is a rhetorical idiom. It is like saying a camel can go through the eye of a needle (Luke 18:25).
- Luke 17:6 tn The verb is aorist, though it looks at a future event, another rhetorical touch to communicate certainty of the effect of faith.
if that translation was true air traffic control would need to keep track of flying mulberry trees and mountains since everyone who has the littlest of faith would be tossing them around .
But the context leads with Jesus rebuke of them having little faith and saying if you have great faith like that of the mustard seed you would be able to say this and the mountain would obey you.
Then He asked, “To what can we compare the kingdom of God? With what parable shall we present it? 31It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds sown upon the earth. 32But after it is planted, it grows to be the largest of all garden plants and puts forth great branches, so that the birds of the air nest in its shade. Mark 4:31
When God says it does. Or does the need for God to answer your question come into play?
That nothing as in not outward force of the enemy.
But the verse is clear they where cut off because of unbelief (that is the rule)
we are called to fear and not assume that we would also not be cut off if we do not continue in faith.
but there are many other verses that OSAS is against not just this one.
For example.
You will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Mark 13:13
This is a trustworthy saying: If we died with Him, we will also live with Him; if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us; - 2 Tim 2:11-12
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness - Heb 3:12-13
The dangers of continued sin in the life of a believer.
sin is from a wicked heart of unbelief and if you do not rid yourself of it i may just harden your heart and lead you to fall away from the living God.
Part of why we must extort one another to purity holiness and Godliness
Which is the purpose of the gospel, and is our laying hold of what Christ Jesus laid hold of for.
We dare not neglect so great a salvation.
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6 and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame - Heb 6:4-6
Part of why I believe the children of God do not walk in power often because it is like giving a loaded gun to a toddler. You need to be without sin in your heart (unbelief) because it could be the end of you. If you are operating in all of these things you are no longer in ignorance but are like Satan knowing full well the power and nature of God and that knowing is why I believe Satan was unable to be restored to repentance but we where protected by our ignorance and could come in faith as a child and be restored to God through the work of the cross. When the angels fell they could not be likewise restored.
And a convoluted one it is. I wonder how many that espouse the way of the Tulip is the only truth through God have ever actually read the Westminster Confession of Faith? Or considered in that reading of the whole shebang realized how the WCoF does not articulate itself with certain of the identities in Tulip.
Lets start with the T. Total Depravity. First, lets define what that means and for context. Total definition is - comprising or constituting a whole : entire Depravity definition is - Moral corruption or degradation. And let us add Unconditional election. Lets let one of the most prominent Religion teaching sites define that one for us.
U - Stands for Unconditional Election
This Calvinist view says God chooses who will be saved. Because people are dead in their sins, they are unable to initiate a response to God. In eternity past God elected certain people to be saved. The saved people are called the Elect. God picks them based not on their personal character or merit, but out of his kindness and sovereign will. It also means that election for salvation is not based on God's foreknowledge of who would come to faith in the future.
Since some are chosen for salvation, others are not. Those not chosen are the damned, destined for an eternity in hell.
The T and U are interconnected by definition. The underlined part in these two definitions is what I want to point out first. And then I'll juxtapose those parts to what the WCoF states and underline and or bold parts of that and for reference.
T - Stands for Total Depravity
The belief in total depravity takes the view that sinfulness pervades all areas of life and human existence. Through the Fall of Man, humanity is stained by sin in every aspect: heart, emotions, will, mind, and body. This means people cannot independently choose God. They cannot save themselves. God must intervene to save people.
Calvinism insists that God must do all the work, from choosing those who will be saved to sanctifying them throughout their lives until they die and go to heaven. Calvinists cite numerous Scripture verses supporting humanity's fallen and sinful nature,
Now, let us look to the Westminster Confession of Faith part I. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith/
I. Although the light of nature and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;(a) yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.(b) Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church;(c) and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing
d) which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;(e) those former ways of God’s revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.(f) Tulip's T & U in short says we are unable to initiate a response to God, unable to independently choose God. Yet, (from the WCoF) the Lord at various times revealed Himself and his will to his church and committed that by inspiring the Bible so as to reveal himself and his will to his church.
But when God must do all the work, from choosing those who will be saved to sanctifying them throughout their lives because we unable to respond to God and cannot independently choose God, why would God inspire the Bible to be written by people to be read by people that they may learn about God and his will?
Now lets look at VII in the WCoF in light of all that is above this line of text. Which in my view blasts the proclamations behind the T & U right out of the water.
VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all
p) yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.(q) That's just two points in the Tulip doctrine and while compared to the WCoF upon which it is grounded.
If we are unable to respond to God and cannot independently choose God, why would God inspire the Bible to be written by people to be read by people that they may learn about God and his will?
And if an answer would be, the Bible is meant for those whom God has elected for Salvation and then they will understand, because they're saved by God who insured they cannot resist his leading to find him, why would there be the New Testament verses that feature Jesus teaching about Salvation? John 3:16 also.
When God has predetermined people will be saved and sanctified by God and his will alone, why would there be scriptures that tell us to choose to hold faith, open the door when the words of God knock, and salvation will be opened to us, when God had already saved those whom he predestined for salvation by determining whom would be his elect and whom would not.
If we're unable to choose God or initiate a response to God because God does it all when saving his elect, why would God inspire verses in the Bible telling us what we must do in order to be saved? "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31)
Yeah the Atheists of Grace could have a bible with just one word.
"WHATEVER"
Cause if God does it for you, your good and nothing matters
and if not well that's not my problem enjoy hell looses.
They preach it like getting a winning lottery ticket.
Like the Pharisee who says in his heart I thank you god i am not like the rest who you have not elected AKA the publican.
"WHATEVER"
Cause if God does it for you, your good and nothing matters
and if not well that's not my problem enjoy hell looses.
They preach it like getting a winning lottery ticket.
Like the Pharisee who says in his heart I thank you god i am not like the rest who you have not elected AKA the publican.
You're saying we must earn our salvation by enduring to the end?
That's not in scripture. John 10:28–30 28 I give[a] them eternal life, and they will never perish;[b] no one will snatch[c] them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,[d] and no one can snatch[e] them from my Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I[f] are one.”[g]
Acts 15:1–11; Romans 3:19–20; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8–9
If we can't be saved by our deeds then we can't lose our salvation by our deeds. Hebrews 6 has to be read in context. What 4 through 6 are saying is that loss of salvation is impossible because if it were possible it would impart a re-crucifixion of Christ since , for those thinking we can do something to lose our salvation, then in order to find it again Christ would have to be crucified again. Because his sacrifice as the propitiation for the sins of the world was not an eternal covenant through grace insuring eternal live and salvation. Therein if someone falls away, lapses into unbelief, in order to be saved again, Jesus would have to be sacrificed again in order to save them again. Which is impossible because Jesus blood sealed the God given gift through his grace of our eternal Salvation. And God's gift is irrevocable.
Air traffic control has no place in this even as an analogy because a mustard seed doesn't believe it is a mustard seed. It does not hold faith it is a mustard seed. A mustard seed's innate characteristic being a mustard seed is such that when planted it grows a mustard plant from itself. Because it IS a mustard seed and can know nothing else.
Liken unto that scripture that tells us how to be like a mustard seed. Be still and know I Am God.
People choose to follow God, may believe God is there, hold faith in the Gospel as pertains to their salvation. The matter of perfection, be ye perfect as I Am perfect, transcends hope, confidence, in Christ that indwells us. Being perfect, Teleios, then is being like unto that mustard seed.
We are complete, we are accomplished in that we know we are of God. We don't hope we are in Christ then. We are one in Christ and just as Christ did in that knowledge, so too can we. We and our father are one. As he told us. John 14
I tell you the solemn truth,[z] the person who believes in me will perform[aa] the miraculous deeds[ab] that I am doing,[ac] and will perform[ad] greater deeds[ae] than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name,[af] so that the Father may be glorified[ag] in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
When its fertilized with sperm (seed) and after you sit on it long enough (fully formed life)When does an egg become a chicken?
SEED
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them;
they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. - 1 John 3:9
FULLY FORMED
My children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, -Gal 4:19
ABIDING IN THE VINE Until the process is finished (if it take nine months, how long does it take spiritually?)
Jesus our vine or umbilical to God for His life to us
Jesus the sacrificial life with a special blood of its own type.
The blood of the human umbilical/placenta is special.
Not of the type of the mother but not foreign or hostile to the mother
Not of the type of the child but not foreign to the child or hostile
No you must not let go of the free gift you have been given.
You must not waste it or neglect it or your risk becoming hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Yes if you hold on to him he holds on to you and no one can separate you.
Except for you. it is not forced grace
You mix the beginning of something with having the end of it.
The start of the race with its finish and crown.
But in the start you only have the finished result possessed in your hope.
You do not have it or see it until you have endured long enough to realize it and that is the great faith OF the mustard seed and that is why the kingdom of God is likened to the mustard seed.
let endurance have its perfecting work in you as the testing/proving of your faith because the outcome is the fullness of stature.
the Christ in you in fullness the God in you filling you up to all His fullness.
Mustard seed faith.
How great a salvation we have been given
So you are in effect saying a small mustard seed grows into a large mustard tree because of its faith?
it is a parallel.So you are in effect saying a small mustard seed grows into a large mustard tree because of its faith?
The least becomes the greatest, in great faith.
Not the least does great things like move mountains with just a tiny little bit of faith.
Although the seed starts tiny the least the capacity of its life is is to become is the greatest.
Like us in the kingdom the least of us has in us a greatness greater the John B.
But to lay hold of that requires believing God that you can and that it is in you and that God has given you all things pertaining to this life and His Godliness so you can be fill up to the fullness of the stature of Christ Jesus Even to the fullness of God....
That is some mighty mighty faith if you believe it.
It is Gods will for you to get there and be able to move mountains with a word.
But not everyone understand what God has done in us.
They do not see how great this salvation really is and how far we can go in it.
Most can not manage enough faith to believe God for the cessation of sin in their lives and earnestly seek it with all there hearts as the apostle Peter calls us to. How then are they every going to begin living lives for Gods glory?
Who is actually believing they can do more then Jesus did?
Who is asking for it without doubting for the right reasons and with a right heart fully expecting that it will be so for them?
We lay hold of so little of this great salvation that we come very near to neglect. (like the man who buried his coin)
Perhaps we get a little godliness interest in our own lives, but the fruit of Godliness is a much greater harvest in others as well.
How great is our God, how holy pure perfect in love, how unwavering in faith(fullness)
Our Father, our birthright in Christ Jesus is what He is, in who we are.
That is the life eternal.
Christ in you, your hope of glory.
This is the stuff of revivals past and God only needs one to get it started
Two or more in unity are better still.
I am going there.
Because I want to see the bride of Christ clean and pure and spotless and strong in the fullness of Him.
Ready for His sudden return and the call to battle.
But so many will answer that call butt naked, and what will be the result of that?
My prayer is no matter what it takes Father God in Jesus name take me all the way!
Amen anyone?