Chosen by God - A study in Election
- Thread starter cv5
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
Your using Israel to prove your theory is a mistake. It proves just the opposite. Paul is perfectly consistent on this point of election and choice throughout the Bible. Please quote Scripture and show us anywhere in Scripture where it says that MAN chooses Jesus, that MAN chooses God. In fact the Bible is perfectly consistent and saying just the opposite, and this without exception.
Rom 9
6But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel [[Jacob the elect]], 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” [[Isaac the chosen son]] 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted [[Those chosen by God]] as the seed. 9For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man,even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to her,“The older shall serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Rom 9
6But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel [[Jacob the elect]], 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” [[Isaac the chosen son]] 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted [[Those chosen by God]] as the seed. 9For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man,even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to her,“The older shall serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
-
1
- Show all
Christ died as a sacrificial offering for the sins of the elect, to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man for man's acceptance. After the natural man has been quickened to a new spiritual life as a babe in Christ, and after he has been weaned from the milk of the word and able to digest the meat of the word, with the knowledge of what Christ has done for him, ONLY THEN, will he accept Christ's atonement. Eternal salvation does not come as a choice for man to except. Did you have any choice in being born naturally? The same applies for your spiritual birth.
With respect FGC....I disagree that you have to be weaned from the milk of the word,and digest the meat of the word,to accept Christ atonement.
I knew straight away on receiving the Holy Spirit,what Jesus had done for me,on my new birth,in fact I grieved the death of Jesus for months,I couldn’t stop crying and felt a deep,deep loss in my spirit.when I became born again.
You are absolutely correct it is the gift of God and it is by choice. The mistake you're making is that you defy the Scriptures in thinking that it is man's choice. It is not. God bequeaths the gracious gift of salvation upon all those who HE, GOD THE FATHER chooses.
Phil 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Please note that it seems to be the case that it is NOT God, but the INDIVIDUAL who does NOT choose Christ.
Acts 13:46
And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
I have yet to see any poster here provide me with compelling Scriptural evidence that fallen man is EVER making the choice for God. In fact Paul is saying just the opposite in Romans chapter 3.
The way I see it the problem here is the pride of man and their failing to comprehend the true nature of the justice of God. Paul does his best to explain this in some fashion in Romans chapter 9 and 11 and elsewhere.
Rom 11:5
It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them.
Phil 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Please note that it seems to be the case that it is NOT God, but the INDIVIDUAL who does NOT choose Christ.
Acts 13:46
And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
I have yet to see any poster here provide me with compelling Scriptural evidence that fallen man is EVER making the choice for God. In fact Paul is saying just the opposite in Romans chapter 3.
The way I see it the problem here is the pride of man and their failing to comprehend the true nature of the justice of God. Paul does his best to explain this in some fashion in Romans chapter 9 and 11 and elsewhere.
Rom 11:5
It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them.
-
2
- Show all
E
I am not surprised that same proof texts are used over and over again by those promoting Calvinism's unconditional election.
As you know ambiguous scripture should not be used to support a doctrine where other verses clearly dispute it.
Those who do not subscribe to Calvinism make an equally good case that the idea in context of this verse is about "arrangement and preparation" not God divine's election of one group over another.
In context....the gentiles were willing to receive what the Jews rejected
As you know ambiguous scripture should not be used to support a doctrine where other verses clearly dispute it.
Those who do not subscribe to Calvinism make an equally good case that the idea in context of this verse is about "arrangement and preparation" not God divine's election of one group over another.
In context....the gentiles were willing to receive what the Jews rejected
Using the same verses over and over again? Come on...... that is why they exist.
I am still waiting for ONE VERSE to be posted that states UNEQUIVOCALLY that fallen men in and of themselves
CHOOSE CHRIST. Nay, but it is God who always and forever makes the soverign choice. It was so for Israel, so it is for the Church.
If you disagree with me on this narrow point of CHOICE please prove it with relevant Scripture. I don't think it can be done.
I am still waiting for ONE VERSE to be posted that states UNEQUIVOCALLY that fallen men in and of themselves
CHOOSE CHRIST. Nay, but it is God who always and forever makes the soverign choice. It was so for Israel, so it is for the Church.
If you disagree with me on this narrow point of CHOICE please prove it with relevant Scripture. I don't think it can be done.
-
1
- Show all
The so called "sovereign choice" was for the promise seed line of Christ. That's why He chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That's why He chose the nation of Israel. He chose them to bring forth the promise seed of Genesis 3:15. Good grief. He didn't choose them for salvation.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
"Bbrdrd,
Hello my friend, let's take a look and see if we can clarify this for you.
[I really don't understand why Calvinists argue their points so vigorously.]
You do not understand because it is clear you have not taken the time to understand the position. You are not alone in this, there is a small posse of anti Cal persons, who cannot explain the position accurately if their life depended on it.
We are told in scripture to contend for the FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS.
Calvinists obey this command as it is a means God uses to convert sinners in real-time, to bring to pass what He has ordained in eternity past.
[ If we are mere playthings with God selecting from the very beginning then there is nothing that can be done about it.]
Why such a profane suggestion about the biblical God? A perfect all-knowing God you speak of as using men as "mere playthings"?
[There is no peril for the one who doesn't believe because they can't change their fate merely wait for it to occur.]
The bible does not teach fate or fatalism. Instead, we have a God who is absolute control of everything that comes to pass.
[In fact, the damned are better off not knowing because who would be able to enjoy what little pleasure God allows them before eternally torturing them ]
This does not sound like the post of a Christian. God judges righteous judgment. All the saints in heaven praise God for His perfect judgment.
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
[if they knew not only the fate that was coming but its inevitability, their complete inability to change it.]
Unless you are in a third world country everyone you know has heard about the judgment to come, they dismiss it because they love their sin
[It's such a monstrous idea and paints such a twisted and disgusting picture of God completely not worth worshiping.
Thank God that's not the God Jesus reveals.]
This twisted idea comes from your profane post, not Calvinists.
Hello my friend, let's take a look and see if we can clarify this for you.
[I really don't understand why Calvinists argue their points so vigorously.]
You do not understand because it is clear you have not taken the time to understand the position. You are not alone in this, there is a small posse of anti Cal persons, who cannot explain the position accurately if their life depended on it.
We are told in scripture to contend for the FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS.
Calvinists obey this command as it is a means God uses to convert sinners in real-time, to bring to pass what He has ordained in eternity past.
[ If we are mere playthings with God selecting from the very beginning then there is nothing that can be done about it.]
Why such a profane suggestion about the biblical God? A perfect all-knowing God you speak of as using men as "mere playthings"?
[There is no peril for the one who doesn't believe because they can't change their fate merely wait for it to occur.]
The bible does not teach fate or fatalism. Instead, we have a God who is absolute control of everything that comes to pass.
[In fact, the damned are better off not knowing because who would be able to enjoy what little pleasure God allows them before eternally torturing them ]
This does not sound like the post of a Christian. God judges righteous judgment. All the saints in heaven praise God for His perfect judgment.
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
[if they knew not only the fate that was coming but its inevitability, their complete inability to change it.]
Unless you are in a third world country everyone you know has heard about the judgment to come, they dismiss it because they love their sin
[It's such a monstrous idea and paints such a twisted and disgusting picture of God completely not worth worshiping.
Thank God that's not the God Jesus reveals.]
This twisted idea comes from your profane post, not Calvinists.
Except if the only difference between the saved and the damned is God's sovereign decree they have no power to not dismiss it. God has already chosen them for damnation through choosing not to save them. So what benefit is the gospel to them since if they believe it to be true it does nothing but torture them early since they have no ability to change their fate according to Calvinists.
It is not the true God I malign with my accusations but the idol present within the theological system known as Calvinism.
It is not the true God I malign with my accusations but the idol present within the theological system known as Calvinism.
- Status